Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

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Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Fordham (going to negotiate, but assume no $)
30
34%
Cardozo (23k/year, top 85% requirement)
33
38%
Brooklyn (don't know yet, but assume 20-40k/year)
8
9%
St. Johns (full scholarship, top 40% requirement)
16
18%
 
Total votes: 87

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2011L1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby 2011L1 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:08 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
why does it seem that Brooklyn's rep is slipping fast?


it's not. it's probably the same as it always was. people on this board don't like it.


Got it, I'm from Brooklyn and have 0 interest in that place.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:10 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
why does it seem that Brooklyn's rep is slipping fast?


it's not. it's probably the same as it always was. people on this board don't like it.


It's always bad. It's at the bottom of a crowded market, competing with a ton of other schools.

Maybe it seems like BLS's rep is slipping because they seemed to get a boost last year when they jumped into the top 60 or so and people rankings-whored like there was no tomorrow, but now that they have gone back to lower in the T2 people are coming back to reality.

IsleMet
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby IsleMet » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:32 pm

bk1 wrote:
Stringer6 wrote:
why does it seem that Brooklyn's rep is slipping fast?


it's not. it's probably the same as it always was. people on this board don't like it.


It's always bad. It's at the bottom of a crowded market, competing with a ton of other schools.

Maybe it seems like BLS's rep is slipping because they seemed to get a boost last year when they jumped into the top 60 or so and people rankings-whored like there was no tomorrow, but now that they have gone back to lower in the T2 people are coming back to reality.


Question...

When people say T2, where is the cut off? According to USNR Rankings, the top 100 are all Tier 1. Is there an imaginary cutoff somewhere or is there an actual cutoff?

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bk1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:33 pm

IsleMet wrote:Question...

When people say T2, where is the cut off? According to USNR Rankings, the top 100 are all Tier 1. Is there an imaginary cutoff somewhere or is there an actual cutoff?


T2 is 51-100. I think they used to do all 4 tiers but at some point collapsed T1 and T2 into just T1 so there are now only 3 tiers (1, 3, and 4).

Probably did this to sell some magazines and make shitty schools feel better about themselves.

IsleMet
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby IsleMet » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
IsleMet wrote:Question...

When people say T2, where is the cut off? According to USNR Rankings, the top 100 are all Tier 1. Is there an imaginary cutoff somewhere or is there an actual cutoff?


T2 is 51-100. I think they used to do all 4 tiers but at some point collapsed T1 and T2 into just T1 so there are now only 3 tiers (1, 3, and 4).

Probably did this to sell some magazines and make shitty schools feel better about themselves.



Oh, gotcha. Thanks!

Is Cardozo generally considered T1? I got a full ride there and am considering going...other choices being BC/Fordham probably without $

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bk1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:42 pm

IsleMet wrote:Oh, gotcha. Thanks!

Is Cardozo generally considered T1? I got a full ride there and am considering going...other choices being BC/Fordham probably without $


Cardozo is in the T1, yes.

However, T1 is a meaningless distinction (same with T2/T3/T4) as it doesn't really tell you anything about employment prospects. The 50th ranked school isn't magically better than the 51st ranked school just because the former is T1 and the latter is T2 (same goes with the difference between rank 100 and rank 101, etc). After the T14 or so, schools are generally very regional (and some would argue regionality starts within the T14) and so directly comparing a school like IU Bloomington to a school like UC Davis isn't really fair at all as they will get you jobs in two different parts of the country.

I'd say Cardozo, if you have no scholarship stipulations or very minimal stipulations, with a full ride is better than BC/Fordham because BC/Fordham aren't better enough than Cardozo in my mind.

IsleMet
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby IsleMet » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:44 pm

To the OP...

My roommates sister went to St. Johns on a full ride and didn't have a problem getting a job right out of school (not sure in which field of law). Though I've heard that some people do lose the money in their second and third years (I think they plan it so some people lose the $).

I'd go with Dozo and try to negotiate for more money if possible.

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thexfactor
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby thexfactor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:56 am

ok think about it. At carbozo you are going to pay around 20k a year + 10k living. so 90k total debt in 3 years. At fordham you are paying 42+10k living. 55kyrx3= 165. If you dont get a biglaw/midlaw/biggov/ you will never be able to pay back even the 90k debt. The federal gov has a new policy of limiting your debt payments to a percentage of income. The debt will be forgiven in 25 years or 10 if you work for a non profit.

Fordham has a much bigger chance of success of getting a biglaw/midlaw type of job. If you get biglaw you will be able to pay back most of the debt anyways. If you don't get biglaw/biggov/...etc you are screwed anyways for either school. If that happens, you should just work for a non profit and your debt will be erased in 10 years.

In the glory days of 07, carbozo was placing around 15% or so in biglaw. Now I bet they are placing less than 10%. Fordham was placing over 40% of their graduates at biglaw. I think the current placement rate is about 1/4 or so. The problem is that top 10% at ANY law school is going to be full of kids who are smart. Dont automatically assume Carbozo is going to be easier than Fordham.

With the new IBR plan, Carbozo with scholarship has about the same downside as Fordham sticker. However, since Fordham has a substantially better placement to midlaw/biglaw firms Fordham has a bigger upside as compared to Carbozo.

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Stringer6
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby Stringer6 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:08 am

ok think about it. At carbozo you are going to pay around 20k a year + 10k living. so 90k total debt in 3 years. At fordham you are paying 42+10k living. 55kyrx3= 165.


10k living expenses is low (by half or more).

If you dont get a biglaw/midlaw/biggov/ you will never be able to pay back even the 90k debt. The federal gov has a new policy of limiting your debt payments to a percentage of income. The debt will be forgiven in 25 years or 10 if you work for a non profit.

Fordham has a much bigger chance of success of getting a biglaw/midlaw type of job. If you get biglaw you will be able to pay back most of the debt anyways. If you don't get biglaw/biggov/...etc you are screwed anyways for either school. If that happens, you should just work for a non profit and your debt will be erased in 10 years.

In the glory days of 07, carbozo was placing around 15% or so in biglaw. Now I bet they are placing less than 10%. Fordham was placing over 40% of their graduates at biglaw. I think the current placement rate is about 1/4 or so. The problem is that top 10% at ANY law school is going to be full of kids who are smart. Dont automatically assume Carbozo is going to be easier than Fordham.

With the new IBR plan, Carbozo with scholarship has about the same downside as Fordham sticker. However, since Fordham has a substantially better placement to midlaw/biglaw firms Fordham has a bigger upside as compared to Carbozo.
ok think about it. At carbozo you are going to pay around 20k a year + 10k living. so 90k total debt in 3 years. At fordham you are paying 42+10k living. 55kyrx3= 165. If you dont get a biglaw/midlaw/biggov/ you will never be able to pay back even the 90k debt. The federal gov has a new policy of limiting your debt payments to a percentage of income. The debt will be forgiven in 25 years or 10 if you work for a non profit.

Fordham has a much bigger chance of success of getting a biglaw/midlaw type of job. If you get biglaw you will be able to pay back most of the debt anyways. If you don't get biglaw/biggov/...etc you are screwed anyways for either school. If that happens, you should just work for a non profit and your debt will be erased in 10 years.

In the glory days of 07, carbozo was placing around 15% or so in biglaw. Now I bet they are placing less than 10%. Fordham was placing over 40% of their graduates at biglaw. I think the current placement rate is about 1/4 or so. The problem is that top 10% at ANY law school is going to be full of kids who are smart. Dont automatically assume Carbozo is going to be easier than Fordham.

With the new IBR plan, Carbozo with scholarship has about the same downside as Fordham sticker. However, since Fordham has a substantially better placement to midlaw/biglaw firms Fordham has a bigger upside as compared to Carbozo.


but i tend to agree with your overall assessment. thanks.

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northwood
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby northwood » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:17 am

rent alone in NYC will cost around 10k.

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thexfactor
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby thexfactor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:55 am

northwood wrote:rent alone in NYC will cost around 10k.


ok but the ratio is about the same.

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby Robespierre » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:39 pm

Wow, this is a close one. Is a Fordham degree worth $69K more than a Dozo degree? $120K more than a St. John's degree?

It's an intensely personal choice. If you'd have to borrow to pay the Fordham sticker price, how tough would that be on you? (Some people deal with debt better than others.) How much would it bother you to have a degree from Yeshiva or a school in Queens? (Some folks care a lot about perceptions.) How wedded are you to staying in NYC? (None of the schools carries a ton of weight outside NYC so it tends to even out the difference between them.) What are your employment goals? (If you're lusting for Biglaw, that favors Fordham.) What's your view of future economic trends? (If we have massive inflation, the debt won't seem so bad.) How confident are you that you can meet the class-standing stipulations? Etc. etc. etc.

For me it would be Fordham. My personal circumstances are that I wouldn't have to borrow the whole cost; I want Biglaw; and I'd be worried about the scholly stipulations (I'm more of an LSAT-taker than an A-getter). But no one can make the call for you.

Good luck!

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rocon7383
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby rocon7383 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:24 pm

i'm currently on the waitlist at fordham but am optimistic i'll get in for a few reasons. I have a full ride at st.john's and am waiting to hear back from Brooklyn. I've spoken to a few lawyers who work in the nyc area and all of them say you have to go to Fordham. The debt is imposing, it really is, but is it worth the risk?

adude
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby adude » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:38 am

23k sounds good at cardozo, but the cost of living will be a lot, so I would personally opt for the full scholarship at St. John's. I don't think you'll have a hard time making top 40%. I know the school is about 20 rankings lower, but they are both T2. I doubt the job prospects are significantly different, though I have no experience w/ either school.

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2011L1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby 2011L1 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:10 am

adude wrote:23k sounds good at cardozo, but the cost of living will be a lot, so I would personally opt for the full scholarship at St. John's. I don't think you'll have a hard time making top 40%. I know the school is about 20 rankings lower, but they are both T2. I doubt the job prospects are significantly different, though I have no experience w/ either school.


Dozo is T1 the bottom of it, but T1 on most years.

ballpop
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby ballpop » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:30 am

...Cardozo is right near the 23, 456, L, and PATH trains---COL can be far lower if you are smart (probably 1500-1800 a month)

lawgrl21
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby lawgrl21 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:32 pm

depends how debt aversive you are. I personally think its worth spending the money to go to a school like Fordham that will open so many more doors for you than any of the other schools, but I think it depends on your personal feelings about debt and what type of law you want to practice after law school.

timertimer61
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby timertimer61 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:45 pm

in this case, you get what you pay for.

lawschoolman1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby lawschoolman1 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:20 pm

I was looking on a few firms websites and see that Cardozo and Brooklyn grads have multiple associates positions in recent years. I believe it was Skadden that had about 2 or 3 Brooklyn Law 2008 grads and Dewey has 2 or 3 2009 Cardozo grads.


I guess the question I have is which one of these Schools (Cardozo, Brooklyn, Fordham) is generally considered easier to break into the top 10% of the class?

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bk1
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Re: Fordham v. Cardozo v. Brooklyn v. St. Johns

Postby bk1 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:28 pm

lawschoolman1 wrote:I was looking on a few firms websites and see that Cardozo and Brooklyn grads have multiple associates positions in recent years. I believe it was Skadden that had about 2 or 3 Brooklyn Law 2008 grads and Dewey has 2 or 3 2009 Cardozo grads.


I guess the question I have is which one of these Schools (Cardozo, Brooklyn, Fordham) is generally considered easier to break into the top 10% of the class?


It's going to be hard to break into the top 10% at any class. I wouldn't assume a significant enough difference to justify not taking the highest scholarship that you would get from one of them.




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