Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

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GeneParmesanPI
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Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby GeneParmesanPI » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:20 am

New to the forum, but I've been reading for quite a while and I really appreciate what you guys do. With that said, I have a question that hopefully you guys can help with. Of course, since I'm only a sophomore, grades and LSAT score might make the decision for me. But, being optimistic, here's the deal:

I've lived in Colorado my whole life, and since it's such a great place to live, I'd like to keep it that way and practice law in my home state. Like any undergrad with law school aspirations, the idea of attending a T14 or other highly ranked school is undeniably attractive. But I also have the nearby and solid (also relatively cheap) option of going to Colorado-Boulder, largely considered the best in my region.

Would my job prospects in Colorado really be significantly better if I came from a T14 school instead of CU-Boulder? Or since A) I want to practice in Colorado, and B) CU has a great reputation in the region, is CU just as sensible?

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CliveStaples
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby CliveStaples » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:49 am

GeneParmesanPI wrote:New to the forum, but I've been reading for quite a while and I really appreciate what you guys do. With that said, I have a question that hopefully you guys can help with. Of course, since I'm only a sophomore, grades and LSAT score might make the decision for me. But, being optimistic, here's the deal:

I've lived in Colorado my whole life, and since it's such a great place to live, I'd like to keep it that way and practice law in my home state. Like any undergrad with law school aspirations, the idea of attending a T14 or other highly ranked school is undeniably attractive. But I also have the nearby and solid (also relatively cheap) option of going to Colorado-Boulder, largely considered the best in my region.

Would my job prospects in Colorado really be significantly better if I came from a T14 school instead of CU-Boulder? Or since A) I want to practice in Colorado, and B) CU has a great reputation in the region, is CU just as sensible?


There will undoubtedly be some jerks who come on here and tell you to come back after you get your LSAT but I'll give you my opinion. It really depends on how debt adverse you are, what kind of law you want to practice and how sure you are you want to stay in Colorado (i know you seem pretty sure but things sometimes change). If you get into a t14 I would assume CU would give you a pretty good scholarship so if you can go to school for cheap and you're absolutely sure on the Colorado thing I would say go to CU. You're a lot less likely to land a Biglaw job going to CU over a t14 but it seems like you're top priority is the location over the money. For now make sure and focus on your GPA so hopefully you'll be in the position where you have to choose between a t14 and CU.


Edit: to sum up, go where you feel comfortable and happy and you will have made the right choice

duckmoney
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby duckmoney » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:54 am

Generally speaking if you have ties (which you do), you'll have a better shot at the best CO jobs from a T14. Although if it's too expensive relative to Boulder, that might be a better option.

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RVP11
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:03 am

If you have ties to CO, and want Denver BigLaw: T14

If you have ties to CO and want something else: CU

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The Stig
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby The Stig » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:04 am

FWIW one of my friends decided to attend CU-Boulder over UMich last year... he was originally from Colorado, and knew that he wanted to go back (sounds similar to you).

TheTallOne0602
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby TheTallOne0602 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:18 am

No clue about Colorado specifically, but I do know how quickly things can change in a year, much less the five you have between now and graduating law school. All else being equal, I would take the school which leaves more options open, i.e. T14.

With that being said, all else is rarely equal. Scholarships and where you get in will undoubtedly play the largest part in your decision, but just wanting to be in Colorado right now doesn't mean you will want to be five years (or more) from now.

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General Tso
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby General Tso » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:30 am

check with Renzo and Pufer

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Law Sauce
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:52 am

also interested in this...

BeautifulSW
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby BeautifulSW » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:45 pm

I can tell you only that a CU-Boulder degree will sell well in the Rocky Mountain region and that, absent scholarships and maybe even with scholarships if you include the cost of living, the CU degree will be considerably cheaper than, say, HYS. But the posters here who say that you will have better overall career prospects with a degree from a T-14 school are undoubtedly correct.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:07 pm

Lets put it this way: If you have the stats to get into a T-14 you'll have the stats to get a solid scholly from Colorado. COupled with in state tuition and low cost of living you should choose CO... UNLESS you are biglaw or bust, then t14 is the answer (with some minor exceptions like Cornell and GULC).

BeachandRun23
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby BeachandRun23 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:38 pm

RVP11 wrote:If you have ties to CO, and want Denver BigLaw: T14

If you have ties to CO and want something else: CU


This. It also depends if the OP gets a full scholly at CU. Because if the OP is not seeking biglaw, a full scholly at CU may not be a bad option.

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whitman
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby whitman » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:40 pm

What about the exact same question for someone with no ties to colorado?

BeachandRun23
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby BeachandRun23 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:46 pm

whitman wrote:What about the exact same question for someone with no ties to colorado?


I have no idea. I assume firms are going to want ties to colorado before they hire you. So theres two schools of thought here. I have no idea which one is the "correct" one, although I lean towards #1.

1) Go to a T14 and try to impress colorado firms with your prestigous JD degree, because they probably don't get alot of T14 students. Do a 1L internship in colorado to establish ties.

2) Go to CU to establish ties with the area, because otherwise no one may give you an opportunity in colorado because they will assume you're only working there because you couldnt find work elsewhere (unless you have a good reason for wanting to be there).

Kretzy
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Kretzy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:46 pm

BeachandRun23 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you have ties to CO, and want Denver BigLaw: T14

If you have ties to CO and want something else: CU


This. It also depends if the OP gets a full scholly at CU. Because if the OP is not seeking biglaw, a full scholly at CU may not be a bad option.


True, to an extent. I think that going T6 should probably trump CU if you have ties. There seem to be a lot of partners are the major Denver firms who went CU/CSU/DU/CC for undergrad then ended up at top schools (as there are those who went to CU or DU). You definitely give yourself a bigger cushion at the top.

A full-ride at CU vs. other T14...it depends on how risk-averse you are. Denver isn't a big market, there aren't a ton of SA positions. If you're comfortable not working in BigLaw, or not working for the (albeit few) prestigious PI/Gov't jobs in Denver, then the full ride is (almost) a no-brainer.

It really does depend, though, on just how sure you are. I'm pretty positive I want to be back in Denver, but decided I wanted broader options as well, thus I didn't apply to CU at all.

Kretzy
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Kretzy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:48 pm

whitman wrote:What about the exact same question for someone with no ties to colorado?


Spend your 1L summer in CO. Try to go to the Rocky Mountain Diversity Legal Career Fair (if diverse, obviously). Send resumes to Denver firms during the summer, and try really hard to lock a position down there before OCI.

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RVP11
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:49 pm

whitman wrote:What about the exact same question for someone with no ties to colorado?


This depends on how badly you want to practice in CO. If CO is your first choice but you'd also be happy in CA, then of course T14 is TCR. If you won't be happy practicing anywhere else then CU is TCR.

Also: if you have no ties to CO, why would you be so determined to practice there?

GeneParmesanPI
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby GeneParmesanPI » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:36 pm

Thanks for the responses, very helpful. I'm really not sure if I want biglaw or not, but it sounds like a T14 may serve me better overall. I suppose if my circumstances were to change down the road and it would be in my best interest to leave Colorado, I'd certainly want a degree with more reach. Although if I end up with a good scholarship from CU and have a clearer idea about the career I hope to land, that could change things.

I apologize for the hypothetical nature of this thread, but I just wanted to get some preliminary opinions and input, so I appreciate the feedback.

Snape
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Snape » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:18 pm

Kretzy wrote:
BeachandRun23 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you have ties to CO, and want Denver BigLaw: T14

If you have ties to CO and want something else: CU


This. It also depends if the OP gets a full scholly at CU. Because if the OP is not seeking biglaw, a full scholly at CU may not be a bad option.


True, to an extent. I think that going T6 should probably trump CU if you have ties. There seem to be a lot of partners are the major Denver firms who went CU/CSU/DU/CC for undergrad then ended up at top schools (as there are those who went to CU or DU). You definitely give yourself a bigger cushion at the top.

A full-ride at CU vs. other T14...it depends on how risk-averse you are. Denver isn't a big market, there aren't a ton of SA positions. If you're comfortable not working in BigLaw, or not working for the (albeit few) prestigious PI/Gov't jobs in Denver, then the full ride is (almost) a no-brainer.

It really does depend, though, on just how sure you are. I'm pretty positive I want to be back in Denver, but decided I wanted broader options as well, thus I didn't apply to CU at all.


LOL...There is no "T6" distinction in Colorado...are you kidding me? There will be a HYS distinction but nobody in Denver or most of the state could care a less if you went to NYU/Michigan/Penn/Chicago/Northwestern (they are 99% the same school or same job prospects)....get this T6 crap our of your mind man

And to the OP...if you want Colorado and are certain of that you will go to CU almost for free and should make that choice---only consideration is if you get a good scholarship for ma T14 or get into HYS

Kretzy
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Kretzy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:42 pm

Snape wrote:
Kretzy wrote:
BeachandRun23 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you have ties to CO, and want Denver BigLaw: T14

If you have ties to CO and want something else: CU


This. It also depends if the OP gets a full scholly at CU. Because if the OP is not seeking biglaw, a full scholly at CU may not be a bad option.


True, to an extent. I think that going T6 should probably trump CU if you have ties. There seem to be a lot of partners are the major Denver firms who went CU/CSU/DU/CC for undergrad then ended up at top schools (as there are those who went to CU or DU). You definitely give yourself a bigger cushion at the top.

A full-ride at CU vs. other T14...it depends on how risk-averse you are. Denver isn't a big market, there aren't a ton of SA positions. If you're comfortable not working in BigLaw, or not working for the (albeit few) prestigious PI/Gov't jobs in Denver, then the full ride is (almost) a no-brainer.

It really does depend, though, on just how sure you are. I'm pretty positive I want to be back in Denver, but decided I wanted broader options as well, thus I didn't apply to CU at all.


LOL...There is no "T6" distinction in Colorado...are you kidding me? There will be a HYS distinction but nobody in Denver or most of the state could care a less if you went to NYU/Michigan/Penn/Chicago/Northwestern (they are 99% the same school or same job prospects)....get this T6 crap our of your mind man

And to the OP...if you want Colorado and are certain of that you will go to CU almost for free and should make that choice---only consideration is if you get a good scholarship for ma T14 or get into HYS


Yes, there is. Denver isn't some silly place where lawyers have just up and stopped caring about the prestige of the school a person attends. Having lived and worked there, and knowing folks at most of the firms in town, you'd be naive to believe that. Other schools place well, too, the larger point was that T6 will provide additional safety and options in other markets if the OP isn't completely positive he wants Denver.

I'm speaking from experience before law school and during the job search process, having gotten offers in Denver. HYS gives a boost, the T6 provide safety elsewhere and also carry a lot of weight in Denver offices, particularly satellite firms (GDC, Cooley, Hogan, Holland, etc.) that have smaller offices there.

I'd love to hear your experience with the Denver legal market, though, to know if the OP should be completely disregarding your advice. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm suspect of just trusting some assertions you're making without any shred of evidence whatsoever. Looking at your post history you are still just applying to law schools, so I'm understandably doubtful you've got the inside info.

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RVP11
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:59 pm

Secondary market firms don't care about the "T6" distinction, at least probably not with respect to NYU. Do you really think a Denver firm would care about the difference between NYU and Penn?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:29 pm

RVP11 wrote:Secondary market firms don't care about the "T6" distinction, at least probably not with respect to NYU. Do you really think a Denver firm would care about the difference between NYU and Penn?

I would be inclined to agree with this.

Although the number of firms interviewing at a school is not dispositive of how easy it is to get to the market, there is something to be said for having more firms from a market come recruit at your school. Just for fun, here's some quick NALPing showing the number of employers Denver offices that do OCI at T14 schools:

Harvard: 5
Yale: 4
Stanford: 4

Chicago: 4
NYU: 4
Columbia: 3

Northwestern: 6
Michigan: 5
UVA: 5
Duke: 4
Georgetown: 3
Berkeley: 3
Penn: 3
Cornell: 2

While this data doesn't really speak to class cutoffs required to land a firm job in these markets, it appears as though you may have a slightly larger selection of firms from several non-CCN schools. This difference may be minimal, but it doesn't seem to show that Denver offices are obsessed with the T6 distinction that Kretzy is suggesting.

09042014
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:33 pm

Northwestern DENVER POWERHOUSE?!?

jk

OP needs to wait until he hears about scholarship money at CU. There is a case to be made for CU full ride, but not CU at sticker.

Kretzy
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Kretzy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:35 pm

Kretzy wrote: Other schools place well, too, the larger point was that T6 will provide additional safety and options in other markets if the OP isn't completely positive he wants Denver. . . .

HYS gives a boost, the T6 provide safety elsewhere and also carry a lot of weight in Denver offices, particularly satellite firms (GDC, Cooley, Hogan, Holland, etc.) that have smaller offices there.


I'm not suggesting that Denver is "obsessed" with the T6. Denver isn't a place that stops caring about rankings, and the T6 is overall safer.

Most large firms in Denver are satellite offices of other, large national firms that care about these things. There are counter-examples, for sure; an excellent Denver firm like Reilly Pozner, for example, just want top 5% at CU/DU and maybe a grad from non-Colorado schools if they've done well and have ties.[/quote]

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:45 pm

Kretzy wrote:
I'm not suggesting that Denver is "obsessed" with the T6. Denver isn't a place that stops caring about rankings, and the T6 is overall safer.

My bad, I read this as a response to Snape and thought otherwise:
Kretzy wrote:
Snape wrote:LOL...There is no "T6" distinction in Colorado...are you kidding me? There will be a HYS distinction but nobody in Denver or most of the state could care a less if you went to NYU/Michigan/Penn/Chicago/Northwestern (they are 99% the same school or same job prospects)....get this T6 crap our of your mind man


Yes, there is. Denver isn't some silly place where lawyers have just up and stopped caring about the prestige of the school a person attends.

While you went on to say:
Kretzy wrote:Other schools place well, too, the larger point was that T6 will provide additional safety and options in other markets if the OP isn't completely positive he wants Denver.

that statement seemed incompatible with your rejection of Snape's argument that there is no distinction between these schools in Denver.

Kretzy
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Re: Want to practice in Colorado...T14 vs. CU-Boulder

Postby Kretzy » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:34 am

^ That's fair, not the finest-worded explanation on my part.




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