T14 Question

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Lawquacious
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T14 Question

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:45 am

I am thinking about applying to a number of T14 schools as a transfer from a lower T1 including GULC, Cornell, Berkeley, UPENN, and possibly Columbia (almost all of the apps will depend on my grades this spring though). This is not so much of a transfer question as it is a question of school reach though. I mentioned this list to someone who is currently in what I believe is a fairly sought after govt position and who worked for what I believe is a very large firm for a number of years (after completing a least one govt. honors internship). I don't want to give too much info on this person, but I will also indicate that I think (they) have a number of friends and associates from top schools. The bottom line is that when I mentioned this list, it was stated that from GULC, Berkeley, and Columbia I could get hired at any city in the country, but that Cornell and UPENN were more regional. This seems way off to me based on what I know of rankings and the fact that both PENN and Cornell are Ivys. The only reason I ask is that this is a person who would otherwise seem to be in the 'know' about legal hiring. Is there any truth to the idea that Cornell and UPENN are somehow more regional than the other schools on the list (obviously Columbia has the best reach of these, but is there some truth to the idea that Berkeley or GULC may have better national reach than UPENN or Cornell)? I thought the whole thing with the T14 is that they all have considerable 'national' reach...

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Law Sauce
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Re: T14 Question

Postby Law Sauce » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:51 am

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Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

bdubs
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Re: T14 Question

Postby bdubs » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:18 am

I think "reach" is a relative term. Are you looking at positions with lots of prestige within the profession or are you looking at positions where lay prestige might matter? I can see GULC having more national reach than Penn for something like a public defender, but not for a V10.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby vamedic03 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:37 am

bdubs wrote:I think "reach" is a relative term. Are you looking at positions with lots of prestige within the profession or are you looking at positions where lay prestige might matter? I can see GULC having more national reach than Penn for something like a public defender, but not for a V10.


How does 'lay prestige' matter for public defender hiring? Legal employers, even public interest ones, tend to be rather sophisticated and are well aware of school quality.

This bullshit notion of lay prestige is such a joke. The lay public is not well-informed about the law, that's why we don't rely on them for our decision making. I'm sure that you, when you're going through OCI, wouldn't rely on your neighbor's opinions of firms to decide where to work - so why would you allow that to have any influence on where to go to school?

bdubs
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Re: T14 Question

Postby bdubs » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:41 am

vamedic03 wrote:
bdubs wrote:I think "reach" is a relative term. Are you looking at positions with lots of prestige within the profession or are you looking at positions where lay prestige might matter? I can see GULC having more national reach than Penn for something like a public defender, but not for a V10.


How does 'lay prestige' matter for public defender hiring? Legal employers, even public interest ones, tend to be rather sophisticated and are well aware of school quality.

This bullshit notion of lay prestige is such a joke. The lay public is not well-informed about the law, that's why we don't rely on them for our decision making. I'm sure that you, when you're going through OCI, wouldn't rely on your neighbor's opinions of firms to decide where to work - so why would you allow that to have any influence on where to go to school?


I was trying to think of something where you have a public facing aspect to your job. Maybe PD wasn't the right choice, but it's still hard for me to imagine someone from GULC becoming an ambulance chaser or divorce attorney.

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Marionberry
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Re: T14 Question

Postby Marionberry » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:03 pm

Perceived "lay prestige" is not irrelevant even within the legal community, as most practicing lawyers (that I've talked to) don't follow USNWR rankings, and wouldn't necessarily see UVA or Penn as superior to GULC. Some might, some might be under the impression that GULC or Cornell was more impressive. But honestly, to anyone who is unconcerned with rankings and relative prestige of the top schools, all of them are probably equally impressivem with the exception of T6.

As far as a PD position is concerned, and even DA's offices, these people are supposedly less concerned with pedigree and more with ties to the area and a demonstrated commitment to public service.

disclaimer: I am pretty much talking out of my ass. This is just stuff I have pieced together from TLS, lawyers I have talked to, and other stuff I have read.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:06 pm

T-14s are all "national," but certain ones place better in certain regions given greater alumni networks, etc. IMO, I think whoever you spoke to sounds ill-informed because all of these schools place better in certain regions and less well in others. I know that the South, in general, is more insular than other regions, and biglaw firms in ATL conduct on-campus recruiting at only a couple of the T-14s and local tier 1 and tier 2 schools. I doubt Columbia/Boalt/GULC grads could place easily into the South without having significant ties to the area. Moreover, some New York v-50 firms do not recruit at Boalt or Georgetown, but do actively recruit at other T-14s like Cornell, Penn, Michigan, and Duke. As for Chicago, I believe a certain Chicago firm only recruited at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Michigan, and Northwestern.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:49 pm

cornellbeez wrote:T-14s are all "national," but certain ones place better in certain regions given greater alumni networks, etc. IMO, I think whoever you spoke to sounds ill-informed because all of these schools place better in certain regions and less well in others. I know that the South, in general, is more insular than other regions, and biglaw firms in ATL conduct on-campus recruiting at only a couple of the T-14s and local tier 1 and tier 2 schools. I doubt Columbia/Boalt/GULC grads could place easily into the South without having significant ties to the area. Moreover, some New York v-50 firms do not recruit at Boalt or Georgetown, but do actively recruit at other T-14s like Cornell, Penn, Michigan, and Duke. As for Chicago, I believe a certain Chicago firm only recruited at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Michigan, and Northwestern.


All firms have certain schools they go to and certain ones they don't. But, averaged out, there's not much of a difference between schools in each tier of the T14.

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Lawquacious
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Re: T14 Question

Postby Lawquacious » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:44 pm

cornellbeez wrote:T-14s are all "national," but certain ones place better in certain regions given greater alumni networks, etc. IMO, I think whoever you spoke to sounds ill-informed because all of these schools place better in certain regions and less well in others. I know that the South, in general, is more insular than other regions, and biglaw firms in ATL conduct on-campus recruiting at only a couple of the T-14s and local tier 1 and tier 2 schools. I doubt Columbia/Boalt/GULC grads could place easily into the South without having significant ties to the area. Moreover, some New York v-50 firms do not recruit at Boalt or Georgetown, but do actively recruit at other T-14s like Cornell, Penn, Michigan, and Duke. As for Chicago, I believe a certain Chicago firm only recruited at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Michigan, and Northwestern.



This makes sense to me. I think schools within the T14, although generally having fairly strong national reach, are nevertheless going to have particular markets they will perform relatively strongly in and other markets where they are not so hot. I think the idea that Berkeley and GULC have better national reach than Cornell or UPENN (and that Cornell and UPENN are more regional) was probably entirely unfounded.

However, I am still wondering how UPENN and Cornell place on the West Coast or Rocky Mountain regions. I imagine most UPENN and Cornell grads go into NYC, PA, and DC markets, but if they wanted could they get a job on the other side of the country without too much difficulty?

Could they do this as easily or more easily than Berkeley could place into NYC or DC?

How about UPENN or Cornell v. GULC for placement on the West Coast or Rockies? (or perhaps in Chicago and other non east coast cities?).

If anyone can link to placement stats that help address this question of reach I would appreciate it.

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bk1
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Re: T14 Question

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:49 pm

Take a look at which firms go to their OCI. Cornell's is pretty sad compared to other T14's.

The way I see it is that pretty much every school can get you NYC or DC (assuming you have the grades for the latter), and maybe Chi. Outside of that, the regionality of the school is going to help you.

If you're aiming for NYC, I don't think it matters which T14. If you're aiming for DC, I think you're probably boned at any of the lower T14 because they are not strong enough (not because they can't reach DC).

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Re: T14 Question

Postby cornellbeez » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:52 pm

bk1 wrote:Take a look at which firms go to their OCI. Cornell's is pretty sad compared to other T14's.

The way I see it is that pretty much every school can get you NYC or DC (assuming you have the grades for the latter), and maybe Chi. Outside of that, the regionality of the school is going to help you.

If you're aiming for NYC, I don't think it matters which T14. If you're aiming for DC, I think you're probably boned at any of the lower T14 because they are not strong enough (not because they can't reach DC).


The reason why Cornell has a less diverse variety of firms at its "OCI" is because its "OCI" is not even on-campus. It's in Manhattan, so Cornell is going to get fewer DC/Chicago/CA offices willing to fly to Manhattan to recruit, whereas the other T-14s have "on-campus" recruiting. I think for NYC, school choice does matter. For example, Boalt had much fewer NYC firms at its on-campus program than most, if not all, of the T-14.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:43 pm

cornellbeez wrote:The reason why Cornell has a less diverse variety of firms at its "OCI" is because its "OCI" is not even on-campus. It's in Manhattan, so Cornell is going to get fewer DC/Chicago/CA offices willing to fly to Manhattan to recruit, whereas the other T-14s have "on-campus" recruiting. I think for NYC, school choice does matter. For example, Boalt had much fewer NYC firms at its on-campus program than most, if not all, of the T-14.


Boalt may have fewer NYC firms, but there are so many NYC spots, the decrease in selectivity is why for NYC it isn't that relevant.

Your comment about Cornell makes no sense. DC/Chi/CA offices are unwilling to go to Manhattan for Cornell but they will go to CLS/NYU? Or Chi/NYC/CA are more willing trek to GULC or UVa whereas Chi/DC/CA are less likely to go to Manhattan?

I had assumed Cornell had fewer OCI participants because they were less willing to go to Ithica due to Cornell's lesser prestige (as opposed to being more willing to go to say Ann Arbor due to Michigan's higher prestige). But now that I know their OCI is in Manhattan, I just don't get it.

keg411
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Re: T14 Question

Postby keg411 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:54 pm

Last year's class-elected graduation speaker at Cornell had a firm job in one of the western states (I think it was Colorado).

flcath
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Re: T14 Question

Postby flcath » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:59 pm

In terms of actual empirical evidence, there's this study.

It's vastly inferior to the Ciolli study, which I have in PDF form (TLS apparently doesn't let you post PDFs on here), but is hard to find on the net.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby cornellbeez » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:36 pm

bk1 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:The reason why Cornell has a less diverse variety of firms at its "OCI" is because its "OCI" is not even on-campus. It's in Manhattan, so Cornell is going to get fewer DC/Chicago/CA offices willing to fly to Manhattan to recruit, whereas the other T-14s have "on-campus" recruiting. I think for NYC, school choice does matter. For example, Boalt had much fewer NYC firms at its on-campus program than most, if not all, of the T-14.


Boalt may have fewer NYC firms, but there are so many NYC spots, the decrease in selectivity is why for NYC it isn't that relevant.


It's true NYC is less selective because of a greater number of spots, but just fyi, it doesn't mean that you will get biglaw with sub-median grades. (Unless you go to HYSCN, you probably won't get NY biglaw with sub-median grades.) Having a larger number of NYC offices, including less selective vault firms, attend OCI makes it easier to get biglaw in NY. A lot of the NY firms that went to Boalt's OCI were already considered more selective vault firms, and the less selective ones didn't attend. Furthermore, many of the historically less selective vault firms drastically reduced their SA class sizes and have kept them low. The firms that have maintained larger summer associate class sizes are typically the most selective firms (like Cravath, etc.), and also the ones that are more capable and willing to expend the costs needed to travel across country for recruitment.

Your comment about Cornell makes no sense. DC/Chi/CA offices are unwilling to go to Manhattan for Cornell but they will go to CLS/NYU? Or Chi/NYC/CA are more willing trek to GULC or UVa whereas Chi/DC/CA are less likely to go to Manhattan?

I had assumed Cornell had fewer OCI participants because they were less willing to go to Ithica due to Cornell's lesser prestige (as opposed to being more willing to go to say Ann Arbor due to Michigan's higher prestige). But now that I know their OCI is in Manhattan, I just don't get it.


I'm just speculating, but it might be due to the combination of lesser prestige, and firms thinking that Cornell's students only want to work in NY. Moreover, Cornell's interview period is at a different time than Columbia's/NYU's, so these offices may not be willing to pay the fare to travel back to NY. Firms don't stay in the city for 3 weeks to recruit people. Offices typically send partners/associates to interview for a period of 1-2 days.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby bk1 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:47 am

cornellbeez wrote:It's true NYC is less selective because of a greater number of spots, but just fyi, it doesn't mean that you will get biglaw with sub-median grades. (Unless you go to HYSCN, you probably won't get NY biglaw with sub-median grades.) Having a larger number of NYC offices, including less selective vault firms, attend OCI makes it easier to get biglaw in NY. A lot of the NY firms that went to Boalt's OCI were already considered more selective vault firms, and the less selective ones didn't attend. Furthermore, many of the historically less selective vault firms drastically reduced their SA class sizes and have kept them low. The firms that have maintained larger summer associate class sizes are typically the most selective firms (like Cravath, etc.), and also the ones that are more capable and willing to expend the costs needed to travel across country for recruitment.


I never said you'd get biglaw with submedian grades (and nice UChi trolling there). I understand your comments about selectivity, but it seems tangential at best. NYC is less selective due to the sheer number of spots, not because of the selectivity or nonselectivity of the firms there. They have no choice if they want to fill out their SA classes. And these firms typically don't want to dig into lower schools so they are going to take the best grades at the best school they can. Yes, firms (both selective and those less so) have cut SA classes. I just don't see this "the NYC firms at Boalt are more selective than the NYC firms at Cornell therefore it is easier to get NYC out of Cornell" argument holding much water.

FWIW, according to the NALP, I counted 46 NYC offices at Boalt's OCI and 48 NYC offices at Cornell's. Huge difference there.

cornellbeez wrote:I'm just speculating, but it might be due to the combination of lesser prestige, and firms thinking that Cornell's students only want to work in NY. Moreover, Cornell's interview period is at a different time than Columbia's/NYU's, so these offices may not be willing to pay the fare to travel back to NY. Firms don't stay in the city for 3 weeks to recruit people. Offices typically send partners/associates to interview for a period of 1-2 days.


Still, your speculation seems off. NALP has about 150 firms going to Cornell's OCI versus almost 500 at GULC and over 300 at Duke. Heck even UCLA and USC have around 300 and 250 respectively. And while I haven't parsed through these lists to take into account only biglaw offices (and I'd assume GULC is padded with smaller governmental/notforprofit/PI/etc offices and that UCLA/USC is padded with more small/midlaw SoCal firms), Cornell is probably still lacking in biglaw compared to its peers. If firms are willing to stay for a while in DC, or fucking Durham, I'd think they wouldn't mind sending people to Manhattan.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:57 am

Marionberry wrote:disclaimer: I am pretty much talking out of my ass. This is just stuff I have pieced together from TLS, lawyers I have talked to, and other stuff I have read.


I need this line to be under every post that I, and most of TLS, make.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby A&O » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:00 am

DC/Chicago/CA offices willing to fly to Manhattan to recruit, whereas the other T-14s have "on-campus" recruiting.


Doesn't Cornell have a DC job fair too?

So... DC firms aren't willing to go down the block to interview Cornell students?

Fail.

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Re: T14 Question

Postby Marionberry » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:04 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
Marionberry wrote:disclaimer: I am pretty much talking out of my ass. This is just stuff I have pieced together from TLS, lawyers I have talked to, and other stuff I have read.


I need this line to be under every post that I, and most of TLS, make.


No, that would ultimately shake the very foundation of TLS. We must generally maintain the illusion of knowledge, lest we 0Ls have no one to condescend to.

cornellbeez
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Re: T14 Question

Postby cornellbeez » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:25 pm

bk1 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:It's true NYC is less selective because of a greater number of spots, but just fyi, it doesn't mean that you will get biglaw with sub-median grades. (Unless you go to HYSCN, you probably won't get NY biglaw with sub-median grades.) Having a larger number of NYC offices, including less selective vault firms, attend OCI makes it easier to get biglaw in NY. A lot of the NY firms that went to Boalt's OCI were already considered more selective vault firms, and the less selective ones didn't attend. Furthermore, many of the historically less selective vault firms drastically reduced their SA class sizes and have kept them low. The firms that have maintained larger summer associate class sizes are typically the most selective firms (like Cravath, etc.), and also the ones that are more capable and willing to expend the costs needed to travel across country for recruitment.


I never said you'd get biglaw with submedian grades (and nice UChi trolling there). I understand your comments about selectivity, but it seems tangential at best. NYC is less selective due to the sheer number of spots, not because of the selectivity or nonselectivity of the firms there. They have no choice if they want to fill out their SA classes. And these firms typically don't want to dig into lower schools so they are going to take the best grades at the best school they can. Yes, firms (both selective and those less so) have cut SA classes. I just don't see this "the NYC firms at Boalt are more selective than the NYC firms at Cornell therefore it is easier to get NYC out of Cornell" argument holding much water.

FWIW, according to the NALP, I counted 46 NYC offices at Boalt's OCI and 48 NYC offices at Cornell's. Huge difference there.

cornellbeez wrote:I'm just speculating, but it might be due to the combination of lesser prestige, and firms thinking that Cornell's students only want to work in NY. Moreover, Cornell's interview period is at a different time than Columbia's/NYU's, so these offices may not be willing to pay the fare to travel back to NY. Firms don't stay in the city for 3 weeks to recruit people. Offices typically send partners/associates to interview for a period of 1-2 days.


Still, your speculation seems off. NALP has about 150 firms going to Cornell's OCI versus almost 500 at GULC and over 300 at Duke. Heck even UCLA and USC have around 300 and 250 respectively. And while I haven't parsed through these lists to take into account only biglaw offices (and I'd assume GULC is padded with smaller governmental/notforprofit/PI/etc offices and that UCLA/USC is padded with more small/midlaw SoCal firms), Cornell is probably still lacking in biglaw compared to its peers. If firms are willing to stay for a while in DC, or fucking Durham, I'd think they wouldn't mind sending people to Manhattan.


Do you realize how outdated NALP is? 46 NY firms going to Boalt's OCI? 150 firms going to Cornell's OCI? 500 at GULC?

Certainly not last or this year....Also, not that I really give a shit since I'm not a 1L or 0L anymore, but are you confusing offices with firms?

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bk1
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Re: T14 Question

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:17 pm

cornellbeez wrote:Do you realize how outdated NALP is? 46 NY firms going to Boalt's OCI? 150 firms going to Cornell's OCI? 500 at GULC?

Certainly not last or this year....Also, not that I really give a shit since I'm not a 1L or 0L anymore, but are you confusing offices with firms?


I didn't realize how out of date it was. And yes I mistyped, I meant offices not firms.




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