Penn and NYU??

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glacierfrost
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby glacierfrost » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:52 am

Penn placement in California seems to be quite small according to the website. What makes you say it places as well in California as Philly? Interested because I want to eventually go back to Cali

bdubs
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby bdubs » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:55 am

glacierfrost wrote:Penn placement in California seems to be quite small according to the website. What makes you say it places as well in California as Philly? Interested because I want to eventually go back to Cali


Penn admitted student site says that 10-12% of the class has historically placed into CA. This is about the same number of students who get jobs in Philly (from the same source).

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:02 am

bdubs wrote:
glacierfrost wrote:Penn placement in California seems to be quite small according to the website. What makes you say it places as well in California as Philly? Interested because I want to eventually go back to Cali


Penn admitted student site says that 10-12% of the class has historically placed into CA. This is about the same number of students who get jobs in Philly (from the same source).

That's kind of odd - the career services website says that class of 2009 placed 7.14% into Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii and Alaska combined. http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospective/statistics.html

Veyron wrote:Home does not always = primary. NYC and Chi are the primary market for M grads but Michigan is still the "home" market. A better way of thinking of "home" market is "in what market does the school have an outsized reputation?"

Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.

:roll:

Really? This thread has nothing to do with Michigan, so don't use it as your chance to repeat this stupid Penn >>> Michigan for NYC argument.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:07 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
That's kind of odd - the career services website says that class of 2009 placed 7.14% into Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii and Alaska combined. http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospective/statistics.html



Class of 2008 has 11.81% in Pacific. So the admitted site's graph states "class of 2008-2009 break down". 2007 is around 8% and 2006 10%. You can see the past years on that page you linked.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:07 am

Its funny though because CA is actually the most well represented state in CO'2013. I think it actually beats out PA for number of 1Ls from there.

"Really? This thread has nothing to do with Michigan, so don't use it as your chance to repeat this stupid Penn >>> Michigan for NYC argument."

Its funny though, if I said Penn did just as well as Michigan in Chicago you'd probably argue with me. In any case, it was just an example, I could have just as easily said Duke's "home market" is the research triangle and maybe Atlanta, even though it sends more people to NYC. Does that make you feel better?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:26 pm

r6_philly wrote:Class of 2008 has 11.81% in Pacific. So the admitted site's graph states "class of 2008-2009 break down". 2007 is around 8% and 2006 10%. You can see the past years on that page you linked.

Ahh, good catch, I didn't notice those ones below. According to the website's figures, the average historical CA placement since 2002 (the 2004-2009 %s also include placement in WA, OR, etc., but for simplicity's sake let's assume that all the figures in this data are only from CA) comes out to ~7.7% per year, unless I'm just terrible at math. Is that about right?


Veyron wrote:Its funny though, if I said Penn did just as well as Michigan in Chicago you'd probably argue with me.

Are you being intentionally selective in your memory? Of course I would - you and I have actually had that exact discussion before . . . (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142070).

tipler4213
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby tipler4213 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:29 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bdubs wrote:
r6_philly wrote:Going to Penn over NYU both at sticker would be like getting $10-15k/year from Penn. So unless you love living in NYC, it is probably more practical to go to Penn. And they don't publish class ranks/GPA, I am not sure how NYU does it.


The COA for Penn is $68,150 while the COA for NYU is $70,866. I imagine that you will have an easier time staying under the COA budget and will lead a more comfortable life at Penn, but it really isn't a $10-15k per year difference. I would wait on your aid packages and consider them carefully. Placement gives a slight edge to NYU on the east coast but it probably doesn't extend to CO.

Also consider whether you want to go to a mid-sized school like Penn (~250 students/class) or a bigger school like NYU (~450 students/class). The section sizes are also smaller at Penn.


Don't go by the budget the school gives you, go by a real personal budget, I'd be surprised you can't save more than $800 a month housing+food+spending money in Philly. I used to live in NYC, and then in North Jersey, it is not comparable when it comes to cost.

ETA for starters you can probably find $500-600 a month with a roommate or two within a reasonable distance from school. Try that in NYC.


Haha I live in a tiny studio in brooklyn for $1200, and it was considered a "great deal"

r6_philly
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:33 pm

You can't average percentages because the basis for each year may not be the same. So you can't average 100% (1 out of 1) and 2% (2 out of 100) and come up with 49% - it's only 3 out of 101.

Let's just assume it is around 9-10% CA. (what other pacific market is there?) They do say that # of CA students are going up in recent years, so maybe it may surpass 10-15% in class of 2012 and 2013. I hope this is the trend, because I am very interested in at least having a shot at the Bay Area.

tipler4213
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby tipler4213 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:49 pm

Instead of creating a new threat, I'll throw this one out there.

How do you think they compare in terms of someone whose ultimate career goal is in a government agency, such as DHS, DOJ, DOD--General Counsels Office, etc.. I think NYu likely has a slight placement advatage but you end up with more debt when you are going to be taking a low salary. Thoughts?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:51 pm

r6_philly wrote:You can't average percentages because the basis for each year may not be the same. So you can't average 100% (1 out of 1) and 2% (2 out of 100) and come up with 49% - it's only 3 out of 101.

Yeah, I agree that it's not a perfect estimate. But it is the data for 8 consecutive years with points that are all fairly close (between 5-11%), so I would hesitate to say it's anything like a 100%/2% scenario. I do agree, though, that it's not a perfect figure, and it does seem to have slightly increased in recent years.

bdubs
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby bdubs » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:03 pm

tipler4213 wrote:Instead of creating a new threat, I'll throw this one out there.

How do you think they compare in terms of someone whose ultimate career goal is in a government agency, such as DHS, DOJ, DOD--General Counsels Office, etc.. I think NYu likely has a slight placement advatage but you end up with more debt when you are going to be taking a low salary. Thoughts?


You would be relying on LRAP either way, unless you are in line for some major scholarship money at Penn (which should give you some leverage at NYU).

It does seem that NYU places more people into government than Penn, so the network is a lot larger (especially because NYU is almost 2x as big). The correlation/causation arguments here are pretty tough to sift through and come up with a meaningful answer though.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:21 pm

bdubs wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:Instead of creating a new threat, I'll throw this one out there.

How do you think they compare in terms of someone whose ultimate career goal is in a government agency, such as DHS, DOJ, DOD--General Counsels Office, etc.. I think NYu likely has a slight placement advatage but you end up with more debt when you are going to be taking a low salary. Thoughts?


You would be relying on LRAP either way, unless you are in line for some major scholarship money at Penn (which should give you some leverage at NYU).

It does seem that NYU places more people into government than Penn, so the network is a lot larger (especially because NYU is almost 2x as big). The correlation/causation arguments here are pretty tough to sift through and come up with a meaningful answer though.


NYU places a ton of people into NY government positions. It also places more people everywhere because it is much, much larger than Penn. As far as federal government work, neither school has a placement advantage as far as I can tell outside of their respective home states

Your debt is going to be the same from either school except maybe that COL makes Penn 10k cheaper per year or something. LRAP at Penn is more flexible if you are going to be bouncing between the private and public sectors or working for private firms with a PI mission. LRAP at NYU is more generous if you are going to be doing all PI all the time.
Last edited by Veyron on Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cornellbeez
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:27 pm

Veyron sounds like an idiot.

Barring a scholarship from Penn, I'd go to NYU simply because you have a greater chance of landing a job out of NYU and it has a much better LRAP. I will say that the distinction doesn't matter that much for Denver. I applied to Denver firms and got a couple callbacks. Here's what I know: There are a few biglaw and midlaw firms with offices in Denver (like HH, GDC, PB, etc.), most of which only take a handful of SAs (think 2-5 SAs total). (Some of them have somewhat low permanent offer rates though. You should look on NALP for the most recent rates.) Denver offices pay less than 160k. The more national firms start at 145k. Mid-sized firms may start lower than that. However, COL in Denver is pretty low compared to other cities, the QOL is amazing, and you have lower billable hours than in major markets. You will, most likely, be working in litigation though. Most Denver offices do not conduct on-campus interviews at T-14 schools, so you will have to apply on your own/attend career fairs. Denver offices will be looking for ties, which you have, and good grades. I don't think the distinction among the T-14 outside of HYS matters as much for Denver as it does in New York, for example. Denver offices are more willing than firms in major markets to look at top students at lower-ranked, local schools, and probably, prefer them to a mediocre T-14 student.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:11 am

Jeesh - you NYU people are so defensive.

cornellbeez wrote:Veyron sounds like an idiot.



Indeed I am. And yet, I was admitted to both schools with money. Sad, really.


Barring a scholarship from Penn, I'd go to NYU simply because you have a greater chance of landing a job out of NYU


Certainly not those western markets where Penn has a better alum network and firms, as you say, don't give a shit about distinctions within the T-14 after HYS. Certainly not in PA. I mean, I love NYC and all, but its not the alpha and the omega. Besides, even there, the difference is small.

and it has a much better LRAP.


Yes, just making a blanket statement instead of refuting my breakdown of the LRAP pros and cons at each school is sure convincing.

I will say that the distinction doesn't matter that much for Denver. I applied to Denver firms and got a couple callbacks. Here's what I know: There are a few biglaw and midlaw firms with offices in Denver (like HH, GDC, PB, etc.), most of which only take a handful of SAs (think 2-5 SAs total). (Some of them have somewhat low permanent offer rates though. You should look on NALP for the most recent rates.) Denver offices pay less than 160k. The more national firms start at 145k. Mid-sized firms may start lower than that. However, COL in Denver is pretty low compared to other cities, the QOL is amazing, and you have lower billable hours than in major markets. You will, most likely, be working in litigation though. Most Denver offices do not conduct on-campus interviews at T-14 schools, so you will have to apply on your own/attend career fairs. Denver offices will be looking for ties, which you have, and good grades. I don't think the distinction among the T-14 outside of HYS matters as much for Denver as it does in New York, for example. Denver offices are more willing than firms in major markets to look at top students at lower-ranked, local schools, and probably, prefer them to a mediocre T-14 student.


See, you can be reasonable, although I thought that there was one Denver firm that started at 160.

PublicInterest
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby PublicInterest » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:04 am

tipler4213 wrote:Instead of creating a new threat, I'll throw this one out there.

How do you think they compare in terms of someone whose ultimate career goal is in a government agency, such as DHS, DOJ, DOD--General Counsels Office, etc.. I think NYu likely has a slight placement advatage but you end up with more debt when you are going to be taking a low salary. Thoughts?


I don't think there's really any question that NYU slaughters Penn and most other schools in that rank for gov't.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:28 am

PublicInterest wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:Instead of creating a new threat, I'll throw this one out there.

How do you think they compare in terms of someone whose ultimate career goal is in a government agency, such as DHS, DOJ, DOD--General Counsels Office, etc.. I think NYu likely has a slight placement advatage but you end up with more debt when you are going to be taking a low salary. Thoughts?


I don't think there's really any question that NYU slaughters Penn and most other schools in that rank for gov't.


Self-selection over time since they have a strong reputation/program? I don't really think a large percentage of any other school really wish to get into government, and NYU has such a large class.

mapes
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby mapes » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:18 pm

Veyron wrote:See, you can be reasonable, although I thought that there was one Denver firm that started at 160.


pretty sure mofo's office does, though it is ridiculously small.

Thanks for the advice everyone. i'm excited to get out there to visit both. So the consensus seems to be that it won't make much of a difference coming back to denver; but i'm a little concerned that i'll have a good chance of striking out, due to the very limited number of SA spots available there (though i do have some strong connections to some large denver firms which will help hopefully). Should the better placement in new york big law (as a "backup" plan) give nyu the edge here?

mapes
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby mapes » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:20 pm

oh and in terms of housing, r6 is spot on i think. philly seems waaay cheaper in terms of col

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:34 am

mapes wrote:
Veyron wrote:See, you can be reasonable, although I thought that there was one Denver firm that started at 160.


pretty sure mofo's office does, though it is ridiculously small.

Thanks for the advice everyone. i'm excited to get out there to visit both. So the consensus seems to be that it won't make much of a difference coming back to denver; but i'm a little concerned that i'll have a good chance of striking out, due to the very limited number of SA spots available there (though i do have some strong connections to some large denver firms which will help hopefully). Should the better placement in new york big law (as a "backup" plan) give nyu the edge here?


If you're planning on bidding NYC as a backup (instead of, say, LA) it might. Think about whether you are pretty sure you want to work general corporate litigation (as opposed to transactional or one of the sub-specialties of corporate litigation that Penn excels at) and pretty sure about wanting to make your career in NY.

Let me put it this way, I made a similar decision and I didn't think that the marginal edge in NYC biglaw was worth the trade-off in flexibility. . . but it was a very close decision. NYU is a great school and you can't really go wrong either way.




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