Penn and NYU??

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mapes
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Penn and NYU??

Postby mapes » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:07 pm

Recently accepted to both. Not sure what i want to do with my career; most likely biglaw but not set on New York. I'm from Denver and would love to come home to practice.

Just assuming i do not receive scholarship money to either, what are your thoughts? anything is welcome!

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:20 pm

Assuming:

1. You don't care for NYC and
2. You aren't interested in legal academia,

both schools will do fine. If you are seriously considering returning to Denver (or most other secondary markets), I doubt NYU would do much better than UPenn. Therefore, if UPenn offers a scholarship (of say, $15,000 a year), it would be worth it over NYU.

Are there any other considerations for you? If not, I would try to get money from UPenn and go there.

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ahduth
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby ahduth » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:20 pm

NYU is a great place to go to school. I've never been to Philly, so this isn't some sort of cheap shot, but three years in New York is three years well spent.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:24 pm

ahduth wrote:NYU is a great place to go to school. I've never been to Philly, so this isn't some sort of cheap shot, but three years in New York is three years well spent.


Doesn't work for anyone but New Yorkers.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:26 pm

Going to Penn over NYU both at sticker would be like getting $10-15k/year from Penn. So unless you love living in NYC, it is probably more practical to go to Penn. And they don't publish class ranks/GPA, I am not sure how NYU does it.

bdubs
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby bdubs » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:08 pm

r6_philly wrote:Going to Penn over NYU both at sticker would be like getting $10-15k/year from Penn. So unless you love living in NYC, it is probably more practical to go to Penn. And they don't publish class ranks/GPA, I am not sure how NYU does it.


The COA for Penn is $68,150 while the COA for NYU is $70,866. I imagine that you will have an easier time staying under the COA budget and will lead a more comfortable life at Penn, but it really isn't a $10-15k per year difference. I would wait on your aid packages and consider them carefully. Placement gives a slight edge to NYU on the east coast but it probably doesn't extend to CO.

Also consider whether you want to go to a mid-sized school like Penn (~250 students/class) or a bigger school like NYU (~450 students/class). The section sizes are also smaller at Penn.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:14 pm

bdubs wrote:
r6_philly wrote:Going to Penn over NYU both at sticker would be like getting $10-15k/year from Penn. So unless you love living in NYC, it is probably more practical to go to Penn. And they don't publish class ranks/GPA, I am not sure how NYU does it.


The COA for Penn is $68,150 while the COA for NYU is $70,866. I imagine that you will have an easier time staying under the COA budget and will lead a more comfortable life at Penn, but it really isn't a $10-15k per year difference. I would wait on your aid packages and consider them carefully. Placement gives a slight edge to NYU on the east coast but it probably doesn't extend to CO.

Also consider whether you want to go to a mid-sized school like Penn (~250 students/class) or a bigger school like NYU (~450 students/class). The section sizes are also smaller at Penn.


Don't go by the budget the school gives you, go by a real personal budget, I'd be surprised you can't save more than $800 a month housing+food+spending money in Philly. I used to live in NYC, and then in North Jersey, it is not comparable when it comes to cost.

ETA for starters you can probably find $500-600 a month with a roommate or two within a reasonable distance from school. Try that in NYC.

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Dany
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Dany » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:25 pm

I think this is a case where you just visit both schools and go where you feel comfortable. Definitely keep in mind COA, but as r6_philly said, don't just look at the schools' websites and official budgets. Go to the "Penn/NYU Students Taking Questions" threads and find out how much living expenses actually are and take those into account. If Penn ends up being substantially cheaper, I'd go there, but if it's a wash just pick the school you prefer after ASWs. Good luck!

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby tropicalblackstone » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:06 pm

That is quite a tough decision. As a Penn 1L, I would say its a good idea to evaluate what you really want. Penn will definitely not provide a New York City experience but it also won't come with a New York City price tag. From a very practical perspective the three big things that motivated my choice of Penn over similar schools were: a) class size, b) cross disciplinary stuff c) collegiality.

a) Penn is really small compared to NYU. Thats a good thing when you are in class and when you are hoping to find a study group.

b) There are a lot of additional degrees/certificates as well. Getting a Wharton Certificate might be especially helpful if you are hoping to break into corporate or transactional work. There are also bioethics masters and JD/MBAs.

c) I think collegiality is by far the best part about Penn. Within three days of being in class, 2L's had handed me every outline they knew existed. I then exchanged outlines with a bunch of people in my section. Penn students manage to stay collegial while being competitive. It was far from a walk in the park, but no one is here to make it worse. Penn students do not take kindly to backstabbing or other 1L gamesmanship. As for grades, people talk about them vaguely if at all.

My understanding is that this sort of environment is a little different from other T14's. Were also getting a new building if thats of any interest to you.

run26.2
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:36 pm

I had this same choice when I recently transferred.

I started to type out a long list of what I thought about, but I realized it would probably be way too long and therefore ignored.

I say this briefly: the academic rigor at both schools will be about the same. I have a prof that teaches at both and he says they're indistinguishable. Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly. Going out will cost you less in Philly. NYU seemed to have a bit more going on at the school, but it is in NYC. In terms of placement NYU will have a slight edge nationwide and a slightly larger edge in NYC. This difference will not be huge and if you do ok and have a decent personality, you'll be fine at either school.

Ultimately I chose Penn for a couple of reasons. First, it is smaller, offering an easier opportunity to get to know faculty members. I have been able to do this very easily and they've been willing to help me accomplish goals, such as getting published. Second, I was not interested in the hustle and bustle of NYC. Philly is a big city, but it's not NYC. And NYC is 2 hrs away if you really want to visit. Third, students at Penn Law can take advantage of the rest of an awesome university. I don't think NYU has as many tempting offerings outside the law school. Of course some might argue that NYC itself has many more, and I'll concede that for many people, this is true. Just not for me.

PM if you want more details about some of the other things I considered. It might be a tough choice because they're such similar schools. But it's a good choice to have. Congrats!

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:41 pm

run26.2 wrote: Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly.


I lived in both cities not as a student. It's not even close. You can find equal housing (size/proximity) for half in the Philly area. If you are willing to live outside of Manhattan for the cheaper price, well you can find comps for half outside of Philly too. You just have to know where to rent.

I agree on the school and what more it has to offer than NYU wholeheartedly.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:45 pm

r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote: Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly.


I lived in both cities not as a student. It's not even close. You can find equal housing (size/proximity) for half in the Philly area. If you are willing to live outside of Manhattan for the cheaper price, well you can find comps for half outside of Philly too. You just have to know where to rent.

I agree on the school and what more it has to offer than NYU wholeheartedly.


The only places where housing costs are "not that different" from NYC are high end parts of Southern California, San Francisco, and certain areas of New England. Other locales don't come close to the NYC COL.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:48 pm

mapes wrote:Recently accepted to both. Not sure what i want to do with my career; most likely biglaw but not set on New York. I'm from Denver and would love to come home to practice.

Just assuming i do not receive scholarship money to either, what are your thoughts? anything is welcome!


Did tons of research on this. There is literally no difference in the cutoff that firms in the mountain west use for both schools. Penn as a whole has a better alumni network in the mountain west. NYC firms go 10% further into NYU's class. You need to weigh the one against the other but really, the decision should come down to going where you like best.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote: Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly.


I lived in both cities not as a student. It's not even close. You can find equal housing (size/proximity) for half in the Philly area. If you are willing to live outside of Manhattan for the cheaper price, well you can find comps for half outside of Philly too. You just have to know where to rent.

I agree on the school and what more it has to offer than NYU wholeheartedly.

I was finding places in Brooklyn that were not that different in terms of cost to where I am living now in Manayunk. IIRC, it was a little over 2K/month for a 1BR with a study and maybe 2300 for a 2 BR. You have to hunt, but those deals are there.

You certainly can find cheap housing in Philly, but the neighborhoods are sketchy. I should have qualified what I said by indicating there were certain areas in which I was not interested because of safety concerns.
Last edited by run26.2 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

run26.2
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby run26.2 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:55 pm

Veyron wrote:
mapes wrote:Recently accepted to both. Not sure what i want to do with my career; most likely biglaw but not set on New York. I'm from Denver and would love to come home to practice.

Just assuming i do not receive scholarship money to either, what are your thoughts? anything is welcome!


Did tons of research on this. There is literally no difference in the cutoff that firms in the mountain west use for both schools. Penn as a whole has a better alumni network in the mountain west. NYC firms go 10% further into NYU's class. You need to weigh the one against the other but really, the decision should come down to going where you like best.

This.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:56 pm

Veyron wrote:
mapes wrote:Recently accepted to both. Not sure what i want to do with my career; most likely biglaw but not set on New York. I'm from Denver and would love to come home to practice.

Just assuming i do not receive scholarship money to either, what are your thoughts? anything is welcome!


Did tons of research on this. There is literally no difference in the cutoff that firms in the mountain west use for both schools. Penn as a whole has a better alumni network in the mountain west. NYC firms go 10% further into NYU's class. You need to weigh the one against the other but really, the decision should come down to going where you like best.


If this is true, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is, people are vastly overstating the difference between NYU and the rest of the top 10 schools--even for NYC placement.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:01 am

run26.2 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote: Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly.


I lived in both cities not as a student. It's not even close. You can find equal housing (size/proximity) for half in the Philly area. If you are willing to live outside of Manhattan for the cheaper price, well you can find comps for half outside of Philly too. You just have to know where to rent.

I agree on the school and what more it has to offer than NYU wholeheartedly.

I was finding places in Brooklyn that were not that different in terms of cost to where I am living now in Manayunk. IIRC, it was a little over 2K/month for a 1BR with a study and maybe 2300 for a 2 BR. You have to hunt, but those deals are there.

You certainly can find cheap housing in Philly, but the neighborhoods are sketchy. I should have qualified what I said by indicating there were certain areas in which I was not interested because of safety concerns.


You can find spacey 1BR for 750-900 a month in Delaware County towns such as Drexel Hill, Havertown where I feel safer than Manayunk and BK/Queens. And all you need a transpass and you can get to Penn faster than Manayunk by car or public transit. Oh parking is easy and free.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:03 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Veyron wrote:
mapes wrote:Recently accepted to both. Not sure what i want to do with my career; most likely biglaw but not set on New York. I'm from Denver and would love to come home to practice.

Just assuming i do not receive scholarship money to either, what are your thoughts? anything is welcome!


Did tons of research on this. There is literally no difference in the cutoff that firms in the mountain west use for both schools. Penn as a whole has a better alumni network in the mountain west. NYC firms go 10% further into NYU's class. You need to weigh the one against the other but really, the decision should come down to going where you like best.


If this is true, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is, people are vastly overstating the difference between NYU and the rest of the top 10 schools--even for NYC placement.


At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:05 am

Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.


I always thought NYC is the primary market of Penn since most grads take the NY bar exam.

run26.2
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby run26.2 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:10 am

r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote: Your COL will not be that different in either place for housing, but you can live closer to the school and have a more sizable apartment in Philly.


I lived in both cities not as a student. It's not even close. You can find equal housing (size/proximity) for half in the Philly area. If you are willing to live outside of Manhattan for the cheaper price, well you can find comps for half outside of Philly too. You just have to know where to rent.

I agree on the school and what more it has to offer than NYU wholeheartedly.

I was finding places in Brooklyn that were not that different in terms of cost to where I am living now in Manayunk. IIRC, it was a little over 2K/month for a 1BR with a study and maybe 2300 for a 2 BR. You have to hunt, but those deals are there.

You certainly can find cheap housing in Philly, but the neighborhoods are sketchy. I should have qualified what I said by indicating there were certain areas in which I was not interested because of safety concerns.


You can find spacey 1BR for 750-900 a month in Delaware County towns such as Drexel Hill, Havertown where I feel safer than Manayunk and BK/Queens. And all you need a transpass and you can get to Penn faster than Manayunk by car or public transit. Oh parking is easy and free.

Possibly true. I didn't look that far west. I was pretty much turned off by the crime rates in the area just west of the school. I guess you'd have to go thru them to get to the school, though.

You can get a 1Br in Brooklyn for under 1K. All I'm trying to say is that people make the COL difference, in terms of housing, out to be huge. I its a bit exaggerated. Yes New York is more, but if you look around, you can find places that aren't outrageous.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:22 am

run26.2 wrote:Possibly true. I didn't look that far west. I was pretty much turned off by the crime rates in the area just west of the school. I guess you'd have to go thru them to get to the school, though.

You can get a 1Br in Brooklyn for under 1K. All I'm trying to say is that people make the COL difference, in terms of housing, out to be huge. I its a bit exaggerated. Yes New York is more, but if you look around, you can find places that aren't outrageous.


It's closer than Manayunk, and you take the train which insulate you from West Philly. It takes me 10 minutes to drive home after class at Penn. Train will take maybe 15 minutes. You can find things in the 600/month range if you want to go studio, and this would be 200% than the 1k/month apartment in BK. Actually I have a friend who share a large 2BR apt in center city Philly for 750 a month. The COL is huge when it comes to housing, that's what I am trying to tell you.

To give a frame of reference, I pay $1300/month for a 3BR house, single detached (not twin not townhome), walkout basement, a large yard (60'x120') 1 car garage, mortgage/insurance/property tax included - 10 minutes from Penn. So think what the market rent is.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby bdubs » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:23 am

r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.


I always thought NYC is the primary market of Penn since most grads take the NY bar exam.


Penn places about as many people in CA as it does in Philly. Granted the number of jobs in Philly are about a third of the number in CA, but its still not a primary market for Penn grads.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:25 am

bdubs wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.


I always thought NYC is the primary market of Penn since most grads take the NY bar exam.


Penn places about as many people in CA as it does in Philly. Granted the number of jobs in Philly are about a third of the number in CA, but its still not a primary market for Penn grads.


Wait, I said NYC, not Philly.

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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby bdubs » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:31 am

r6_philly wrote:
bdubs wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.


I always thought NYC is the primary market of Penn since most grads take the NY bar exam.


Penn places about as many people in CA as it does in Philly. Granted the number of jobs in Philly are about a third of the number in CA, but its still not a primary market for Penn grads.


Wait, I said NYC, not Philly.


Yeah, I was just saying Philly is not a "home" market in the sense that it is the primary market for grads. NYC is definitely the primary market with 50%+ of the class going there. DC trumps Philly too as the second place destination.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn and NYU??

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:32 am

bdubs wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:At the risk of starting a flame war, NYC is almost a second home market for Penn. I don't think MVB do quite as well.


I always thought NYC is the primary market of Penn since most grads take the NY bar exam.


Penn places about as many people in CA as it does in Philly. Granted the number of jobs in Philly are about a third of the number in CA, but its still not a primary market for Penn grads.


Home does not always = primary. NYC and Chi are the primary market for M grads but Michigan is still the "home" market. A better way of thinking of "home" market is "in what market does the school have an outsized reputation?"
Last edited by Veyron on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.




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