All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

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Veyron
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:06 pm

ect88 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
ect88 wrote:I often feel like an outsider on TLS, as I have no desire to work in BigLaw. I'm going to law school to (hopefully) land a job with a non-profit organization or a firm with a heavy commitment to public service-type work.

I'm applying to and considering non-Tier 1 schools because that's where I can attend for much less money. I am aware that my future employment will not leave me dancing in a rainbow of money, so I don't feel the need to shoot for the T14 schools and their massive debt loads. Additionally, I feel a lot of T2 (and even some T3) schools have a much more pronounced dedication to public service. That's what really matters to me.


Lol, public service, can be, and often is just as competitive and prestige focused as biglaw. The T-14 has LRAP programs for those that want to do PI that minimize debt, the only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is that PI oriented people go there in greater numbers because of the misconception that PI is easy to crack.

There is no shortage of lawyers out there that would love the opportunity to make 40gran doing PI, if you want to help the poor, there are better uses of your time and money.


I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field. Many of their clinics and pro-bono programs speak directly to the type of work we want to do. In my research, I've found there are more of these opportunities at some lower-ranked schools.

I see your point with the LRAP programs, which are very beneficial to PI-focused students. However, many of these programs have very strict guidelines which make it difficult to ensure you receive all they have to offer. Say you and your spouse want to have a child and that means you taking time off from your career for a few years -- now you're stuck with that huge T14 debt and LRAP won't help you anymore. I'd rather pay less with less restrictions on what I can do with my future.

Also...sure, there might be better uses of my time and money. But I'm choosing this because it's what I want to do.


Most T-14s tends not to play such games regarding LRAP. Also, our clinicals are just as good if not better for PI, check them out on some T-14's website sometime. In light of these benefits and the better career opportunities within the field of PI, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who has actually chosen a TTT over a T-14 absent a full ride or massive geographic preference (e.g. wife has a job in the city, caring for sick family, etc.) This sort of sour grapes is just silly.

I would also posit the fact that as a 0L you should still be under the delusion that there is a difference in educational quality between schools and that this should guide you to the T-14 so that you can better represent your clients.
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:08 pm

T50 is a dumb distinction. Go to school where you want to practice (and if you can't get into t14... for as little debt as possible). Law school is 99% regional (although once you get to the T14, it's less regional).

Be prepared to be median wherever you go and need to scrape for a job. If you "win the lottery" and finish at the top, then you can start figuring out your options (transfer, etc.)... because there is a 95% chance it won't happen (and I say this as a first semester 1L "lottery winner").

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby dissonance1848 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:12 pm

I'm going to law school because I loved Boston Legal and Law and Order, and thought that by becoming a lawyer, I could be a spearhead for social justice, single-handedly defeating massive corporations which spend billions of dollars cumulatively on lobbying efforts and keeping the top legal firms in the country on retainer, through the sincerity of my rhetoric and prose when I'm in the court room.

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ect88
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:15 pm

Veyron wrote:
ect88 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
ect88 wrote:I often feel like an outsider on TLS, as I have no desire to work in BigLaw. I'm going to law school to (hopefully) land a job with a non-profit organization or a firm with a heavy commitment to public service-type work.

I'm applying to and considering non-Tier 1 schools because that's where I can attend for much less money. I am aware that my future employment will not leave me dancing in a rainbow of money, so I don't feel the need to shoot for the T14 schools and their massive debt loads. Additionally, I feel a lot of T2 (and even some T3) schools have a much more pronounced dedication to public service. That's what really matters to me.


Lol, public service, can be, and often is just as competitive and prestige focused as biglaw. The T-14 has LRAP programs for those that want to do PI that minimize debt, the only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is that PI oriented people go there in greater numbers because of the misconception that PI is easy to crack.

There is no shortage of lawyers out there that would love the opportunity to make 40gran doing PI, if you want to help the poor, there are better uses of your time and money.


I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field. Many of their clinics and pro-bono programs speak directly to the type of work we want to do. In my research, I've found there are more of these opportunities at some lower-ranked schools.

I see your point with the LRAP programs, which are very beneficial to PI-focused students. However, many of these programs have very strict guidelines which make it difficult to ensure you receive all they have to offer. Say you and your spouse want to have a child and that means you taking time off from your career for a few years -- now you're stuck with that huge T14 debt and LRAP won't help you anymore. I'd rather pay less with less restrictions on what I can do with my future.

Also...sure, there might be better uses of my time and money. But I'm choosing this because it's what I want to do.


Most T-14s tends not to play such games regarding LRAP. Also, our clinicals are just as good if not better for PI, check them out on some T-14's website sometime. In light of these benefits and the better career opportunities within the field of PI, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who has actually chosen a TTT over a T-14 absent a full ride or massive geographic preference (e.g. wife has a job in the city, caring for sick family, etc.) This sort of sour grapes is just silly.

I would also posit the fact that as a 0L you should still be under the delusion that there is a difference in educational quality between schools and that this should guide you to the T-14 so that you can better represent your clients.


I have checked them out. I personally find myself unimpressed. I'm sorry you think I'm making a foolish decision, but luckily you don't have to live my life.

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Veyron
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:23 pm

[/quote]

Lol, public service, can be, and often is just as competitive and prestige focused as biglaw. The T-14 has LRAP programs for those that want to do PI that minimize debt, the only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is that PI oriented people go there in greater numbers because of the misconception that PI is easy to crack.

There is no shortage of lawyers out there that would love the opportunity to make 40gran doing PI, if you want to help the poor, there are better uses of your time and money.[/quote]

I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field. Many of their clinics and pro-bono programs speak directly to the type of work we want to do. In my research, I've found there are more of these opportunities at some lower-ranked schools.

I see your point with the LRAP programs, which are very beneficial to PI-focused students. However, many of these programs have very strict guidelines which make it difficult to ensure you receive all they have to offer. Say you and your spouse want to have a child and that means you taking time off from your career for a few years -- now you're stuck with that huge T14 debt and LRAP won't help you anymore. I'd rather pay less with less restrictions on what I can do with my future.

Also...sure, there might be better uses of my time and money. But I'm choosing this because it's what I want to do.[/quote]

Most T-14s tends not to play such games regarding LRAP. Also, our clinicals are just as good if not better for PI, check them out on some T-14's website sometime. In light of these benefits and the better career opportunities within the field of PI, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who has actually chosen a TTT over a T-14 absent a full ride or massive geographic preference (e.g. wife has a job in the city, caring for sick family, etc.) This sort of sour grapes is just silly.

I would also posit the fact that as a 0L you should still be under the delusion that there is a difference in educational quality between schools and that this should guide you to the T-14 so that you can better represent your clients.[/quote]

I have checked them out. I personally find myself unimpressed. I'm sorry you think I'm making a foolish decision, but luckily you don't have to live my life.[/quote]

True, although if your were completely confident in your decision you would have either:

(a) Beat me down by claiming a T-14 admit or, more likely,
(b) Not posted ITT.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Informative » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:24 pm

T1 = top 50 only.

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ect88
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:28 pm

Veyron wrote:
True, although if your were completely confident in your decision you would have either:

(a) Beat me down by claiming a T-14 admit or, more likely,
(b) Not posted ITT.


(a) Why would I have even applied to a T-14 if I was unimpressed by their program? Waste of my time and money. I only applied to schools I would actually consider attending.
(b) I posted in this thread because OP wanted to know people's reasons for not going into Tier 1. I gave my reasoning. I don't see why my confidence (or suspected lack thereof) would stop me from throwing in my reasons.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:30 pm

Informative wrote:T1 = top 50 only.


Correct

T50 is a dumb distinction.


Correct

Why would I have even applied to a T-14 if I was unimpressed by their program?


*Is unimpressed by Yale*
*Attends the much higher quality Law School of West Dakota*

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby TheStrand » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:54 pm

ect88 wrote:I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field.

Clarify this please. Are you saying that students going to lower tier school have more dedication to PI. People who are truly desirous of serving the public are "unimpressed" or disinterested in going to particular schools with certain numerical rankings and better reputations? Or that lower tier schools have more of a dedication to PI?
Last edited by TheStrand on Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ect88
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:21 pm

TheStrand wrote:
ect88 wrote:I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field.

Clarify this please. Are you saying that students going to lower tier school have more dedication to PI. People who are truly desirous of serving the public are "unimpressed" or disinterested in going to particular schools with certain numerical rankings and better reputations?


Sorry, I see how that was poorly-worded. I mean that some of the lower-tiered schools have the dedication that top tier schools often lack, thereby attracting many PI-oriented students. I'm not saying T14 schools are completely pathetic when it comes to public interest. There are just many schools outside that club (such as Northeastern and Lewis & Clark) that have outstanding PI programs and PI placements, especially when compared to many T14 schools.

Can you get an amazing PI job by attending the elite schools? Of course. But can you also get an amazing PI job by attending a lower-ranked school with better PI opportunities while also graduating with less debt? Definitely.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby concurrent fork » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:42 pm

ran12 wrote:Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job.

Revisit this statement as a 3L.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:17 pm

ect88 wrote:
TheStrand wrote:
ect88 wrote:I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field.

Clarify this please. Are you saying that students going to lower tier school have more dedication to PI. People who are truly desirous of serving the public are "unimpressed" or disinterested in going to particular schools with certain numerical rankings and better reputations?


Sorry, I see how that was poorly-worded. I mean that some of the lower-tiered schools have the dedication that top tier schools often lack, thereby attracting many PI-oriented students. I'm not saying T14 schools are completely pathetic when it comes to public interest. There are just many schools outside that club (such as Northeastern and Lewis & Clark) that have outstanding PI programs and PI placements, especially when compared to many T14 schools.

Can you get an amazing PI job by attending the elite schools? Of course. But can you also get an amazing PI job by attending a lower-ranked school with better PI opportunities while also graduating with less debt? Definitely.


T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.

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ect88
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:24 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.


1. In my research, I have found they are not as dedicated. Maybe your research will come up with something else. But just because they are T14 doesn't mean they're amazing at everything and their programs should go unquestioned.
2. Yes. I want a school that has a program that I believe to be the most beneficial for me. Look at a school like Lewis & Clark. It is consistently cited as one of the best schools in the nation for public interest. Their clinics, summer opportunities, on-campus organizations, and phenomenal PI placement show a clear overwhelming dedication to the field.
3. I really don't care if you buy what I'm saying or not. Once again, I was simply responding to the OP's original question with my reasoning for not going T14. I'm sorry if we do not share the same values or reasoning, but it will not stop me from sharing my view on the subject.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby helloperson » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:55 pm

Here is my plan and all my backups:

1) Get into UCLA/Boalt/USC. One of these schools will probably let me in, and they all place okay in LA big law.
2) Failing that, Loyola LA is still recruited from by big law in LA. They will probably offer me cash money.
3) If I am *not* top 25% of the class when I graduate, I will aim for patent related stuff that requires my engineering background, and then I won't be competing with 99% of everyone else who goes to law school.

I could land an engineering job making 65-75k right now, so law really is not about money for me at all. However, for it to make sense financially I do have to aim for the big firm job.

Law is what I really want to do, and I am going to be good at it.

Also, I fully expect the economy to be in the bubble phase again three years from now.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:03 pm

helloperson wrote:3) If I am *not* top 25% of the class when I graduate, I will aim for patent related stuff that requires my engineering background, and then I won't be competing with 99% of everyone else who goes to law school.



Not sure if you understand how legal hiring works...

If your goal is IP work, which is primarily done in the large or boutique firm setting, you'll be applying for jobs during the summer off your 1L year/Fall of 2L.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:49 pm

ect88 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.


1. In my research, I have found they are not as dedicated. Maybe your research will come up with something else. But just because they are T14 doesn't mean they're amazing at everything and their programs should go unquestioned.
2. Yes. I want a school that has a program that I believe to be the most beneficial for me. Look at a school like Lewis & Clark. It is consistently cited as one of the best schools in the nation for public interest. Their clinics, summer opportunities, on-campus organizations, and phenomenal PI placement show a clear overwhelming dedication to the field.
3. I really don't care if you buy what I'm saying or not. Once again, I was simply responding to the OP's original question with my reasoning for not going T14. I'm sorry if we do not share the same values or reasoning, but it will not stop me from sharing my view on the subject.


1) I'm not a 0L. I'm a 2L. My experience, at UVA, is that there is an incredible level of dedication by the school to public interest. We have an incredibly committed dean of public service who is well supported by 2 other public interest counselors and support staff. In fact, the public service office has almost the same number of staff as the career services office. Adding on to this, I can guarantee you that a T-14 will open doors that will remain virtually inaccessible to schools outside the T-14.

2) That's great the L&C is cited as a 'best school' for public interest. Lots of schools have clinics and on-campus organizations. But your odds of getting into high end public interest are exponentially greater at a T14. Maybe now, as a 0L, you don't care about the possibility of high end public interest, but it's silly to close doors before you even get started.

3) I'm trying to add perspective. As a 2L, I've gone through 1L hiring and 2L hiring and I've seen how hard it is out there. There are opportunities that will not be available to grads of non-T14 schools. The simple truth is that choosing to go to a non-T14 is choosing to close doors.

As a side note, 0L's on here might be thinking - 'why should I care about clerkship placement or firm placement if I want to do PI?' - well, for a lot of organizations, it is easier for them to hire someone who has been trained in big law rather than use their minimal resources to train a new grad. Likewise, you would be extremely hard pressed to find any organization that does not prefer clerks.

As a final note, look at the schools that the Skadden fellows are coming out of - it's heavily populated with T14 grads.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby bergg007 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:14 pm

I want to back ect88 up a little here. My wife went to a top school in the nation for Accounting. This school harps on the Big four as your only option in accounting, and as being the best option because that is how you get a higher rank, the number of people placed at a big four firm. The T14 are similar to this school in many ways, they will do everything that they can to raise the prestige of their school. Federal clerkships and big law are great prestige positions to tell your 0Ls that your students get. Also practicing lawyers are smitten with big law experience. thus it makes sense for the T14 to place it's students in prestigious positions.

I think that is why ect88 is saying that smaller schools have a larger focus on public interest. Public interest carries some prestige, but Big law is better. However, smaller schools struggle to place in big law.

Plus a smaller debt load allows students to pursue PI as a career and not just for LRAP.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby bergg007 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:20 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
ect88 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.


1. In my research, I have found they are not as dedicated. Maybe your research will come up with something else. But just because they are T14 doesn't mean they're amazing at everything and their programs should go unquestioned.
2. Yes. I want a school that has a program that I believe to be the most beneficial for me. Look at a school like Lewis & Clark. It is consistently cited as one of the best schools in the nation for public interest. Their clinics, summer opportunities, on-campus organizations, and phenomenal PI placement show a clear overwhelming dedication to the field.
3. I really don't care if you buy what I'm saying or not. Once again, I was simply responding to the OP's original question with my reasoning for not going T14. I'm sorry if we do not share the same values or reasoning, but it will not stop me from sharing my view on the subject.


1) I'm not a 0L. I'm a 2L. My experience, at UVA, is that there is an incredible level of dedication by the school to public interest. We have an incredibly committed dean of public service who is well supported by 2 other public interest counselors and support staff. In fact, the public service office has almost the same number of staff as the career services office. Adding on to this, I can guarantee you that a T-14 will open doors that will remain virtually inaccessible to schools outside the T-14.

2) That's great the L&C is cited as a 'best school' for public interest. Lots of schools have clinics and on-campus organizations. But your odds of getting into high end public interest are exponentially greater at a T14. Maybe now, as a 0L, you don't care about the possibility of high end public interest, but it's silly to close doors before you even get started.

3) I'm trying to add perspective. As a 2L, I've gone through 1L hiring and 2L hiring and I've seen how hard it is out there. There are opportunities that will not be available to grads of non-T14 schools. The simple truth is that choosing to go to a non-T14 is choosing to close doors.

As a side note, 0L's on here might be thinking - 'why should I care about clerkship placement or firm placement if I want to do PI?' - well, for a lot of organizations, it is easier for them to hire someone who has been trained in big law rather than use their minimal resources to train a new grad. Likewise, you would be extremely hard pressed to find any organization that does not prefer clerks.

As a final note, look at the schools that the Skadden fellows are coming out of - it's heavily populated with T14 grads.



How can you say that there are opportunities for T14 grads that are not open to everyone else? if you are at a T14 you could only know the hiring practices for the T14. If you have friends at lower ranked schools this would make more sense but then it wouldn't be the first hand experience you are claiming. and you can't even say that employers are telling you this because they tell you what you want to hear. When my wife was being recruited by the Big Four they acted like they only take top grads, but that is simply bull, I know tons of people employed by the big four who went to crappy schools. But they tell the students at the big schools that they are special snowflakes.

Now ii would agree that the hiring prospects out of the T14 are undeniably better than the T25 or the rest of tier one but, people from lesser ranked schools get clerkships and presigious jobs all of the time, it's just harder. But nothing is closed off completely.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:26 pm

bergg007 wrote:
How can you say that there are opportunities for T14 grads that are not open to everyone else? if you are at a T14 you could only know the hiring practices for the T14. If you have friends at lower ranked schools this would make more sense but then it wouldn't be the first hand experience you are claiming. and you can't even say that employers are telling you this because they tell you what you want to hear. When my wife was being recruited by the Big Four they acted like they only take top grads, but that is simply bull, I know tons of people employed by the big four who went to crappy schools. But they tell the students at the big schools that they are special snowflakes.

Now ii would agree that the hiring prospects out of the T14 are undeniably better than the T25 or the rest of tier one but, people from lesser ranked schools get clerkships and presigious jobs all of the time, it's just harder. But nothing is closed off completely.



Image

So you're telling me there's a chance!

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Drake014 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:27 pm

r6_philly wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.


Most of the time when people say "networking" they are referring to something that doesnt exist. The way to do REAL networking is to maintain relationships with people in your life who have been past employers, mentors, acquaintances, etc. You update them on where you are going to school, where you are working, where you are moving, stuff like that. Most of the time networking takes place over many months or years. You dont just meet someone and trade business cards and later ask them for a job.


bingo!


I agree and disagree. Most of the time networking does require relationship maintenance. However the right kind of person can easily turn chance meeting into job inquiries and opportunities (if there happens to be jobs available on the other side). The right kind of self-promotion can easily turn a new connection into a job, but obviously it depends on the person and some people have it, and some don't.


I'm not one of those people who "have it" but I've still managed to make connections both before and during law school. Even the most awkward of people can connect with someone eventually.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:34 pm

bergg007 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
ect88 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
T-14's aren't 'dedicated' to public interest? Going to a non-T14 because of the school's perceived dedication is a good idea? I'm not buying your BS.


1. In my research, I have found they are not as dedicated. Maybe your research will come up with something else. But just because they are T14 doesn't mean they're amazing at everything and their programs should go unquestioned.
2. Yes. I want a school that has a program that I believe to be the most beneficial for me. Look at a school like Lewis & Clark. It is consistently cited as one of the best schools in the nation for public interest. Their clinics, summer opportunities, on-campus organizations, and phenomenal PI placement show a clear overwhelming dedication to the field.
3. I really don't care if you buy what I'm saying or not. Once again, I was simply responding to the OP's original question with my reasoning for not going T14. I'm sorry if we do not share the same values or reasoning, but it will not stop me from sharing my view on the subject.


1) I'm not a 0L. I'm a 2L. My experience, at UVA, is that there is an incredible level of dedication by the school to public interest. We have an incredibly committed dean of public service who is well supported by 2 other public interest counselors and support staff. In fact, the public service office has almost the same number of staff as the career services office. Adding on to this, I can guarantee you that a T-14 will open doors that will remain virtually inaccessible to schools outside the T-14.

2) That's great the L&C is cited as a 'best school' for public interest. Lots of schools have clinics and on-campus organizations. But your odds of getting into high end public interest are exponentially greater at a T14. Maybe now, as a 0L, you don't care about the possibility of high end public interest, but it's silly to close doors before you even get started.

3) I'm trying to add perspective. As a 2L, I've gone through 1L hiring and 2L hiring and I've seen how hard it is out there. There are opportunities that will not be available to grads of non-T14 schools. The simple truth is that choosing to go to a non-T14 is choosing to close doors.

As a side note, 0L's on here might be thinking - 'why should I care about clerkship placement or firm placement if I want to do PI?' - well, for a lot of organizations, it is easier for them to hire someone who has been trained in big law rather than use their minimal resources to train a new grad. Likewise, you would be extremely hard pressed to find any organization that does not prefer clerks.

As a final note, look at the schools that the Skadden fellows are coming out of - it's heavily populated with T14 grads.



How can you say that there are opportunities for T14 grads that are not open to everyone else? if you are at a T14 you could only know the hiring practices for the T14. If you have friends at lower ranked schools this would make more sense but then it wouldn't be the first hand experience you are claiming. and you can't even say that employers are telling you this because they tell you what you want to hear. When my wife was being recruited by the Big Four they acted like they only take top grads, but that is simply bull, I know tons of people employed by the big four who went to crappy schools. But they tell the students at the big schools that they are special snowflakes.

Now ii would agree that the hiring prospects out of the T14 are undeniably better than the T25 or the rest of tier one but, people from lesser ranked schools get clerkships and presigious jobs all of the time, it's just harder. But nothing is closed off completely.


Look, legal hiring is not the same as Accounting hiring. Rather than argue with me about reality, go over to the legal employment forum. Research how insanely competitive federal clerkship hiring is right now.

Then, go to the major firms webpages and look where the vast majority of their associates and partners came from. Look at the clerkship blogs and see where the vast majority of clerks come from. Go look for bios of public interest and government attorneys and see where they came from.

I'm not arguing that it's fair, or right, or how things should be, but virtually all of the legal community focuses on school prestige and grades.

Can non-T14 grads get the same jobs? Maybe, if you end up in the top 1-5% of the class. (side note, much of this doesn't apply to the T20 schools to the same degree) But, you shouldn't be making your plans based on your 'hope' of ending up at the tip top of your class.

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bergg007
Posts: 412
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby bergg007 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:56 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Look, legal hiring is not the same as Accounting hiring. Rather than argue with me about reality, go over to the legal employment forum. Research how insanely competitive federal clerkship hiring is right now.

Then, go to the major firms webpages and look where the vast majority of their associates and partners came from. Look at the clerkship blogs and see where the vast majority of clerks come from. Go look for bios of public interest and government attorneys and see where they came from.

I'm not arguing that it's fair, or right, or how things should be, but virtually all of the legal community focuses on school prestige and grades.

Can non-T14 grads get the same jobs? Maybe, if you end up in the top 1-5% of the class. (side note, much of this doesn't apply to the T20 schools to the same degree) But, you shouldn't be making your plans based on your 'hope' of ending up at the tip top of your class.


My point is simply that nothing closes off completely simply because your school isn't in the T14 even you admit that the T20 still have a chance. I agree that the T14 give you a better shot a "better" jobs, but nothing is shut off just because your school isn't numbered 1-14. UGA puts people into prestigious clerkships every year. Yes there are a smaller number of people from outside of the t14 just as there are fewer jobs for T14 kids compared to HYS. My point is that your assertion that some opportunities are simply not open to non T14 students is false.
you said "The simple truth is that choosing to go to a non-T14 is choosing to close doors." I disagree.

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vamedic03
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Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:00 pm

bergg007 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
Look, legal hiring is not the same as Accounting hiring. Rather than argue with me about reality, go over to the legal employment forum. Research how insanely competitive federal clerkship hiring is right now.

Then, go to the major firms webpages and look where the vast majority of their associates and partners came from. Look at the clerkship blogs and see where the vast majority of clerks come from. Go look for bios of public interest and government attorneys and see where they came from.

I'm not arguing that it's fair, or right, or how things should be, but virtually all of the legal community focuses on school prestige and grades.

Can non-T14 grads get the same jobs? Maybe, if you end up in the top 1-5% of the class. (side note, much of this doesn't apply to the T20 schools to the same degree) But, you shouldn't be making your plans based on your 'hope' of ending up at the tip top of your class.


My point is simply that nothing closes off completely simply because your school isn't in the T14 even you admit that the T20 still have a chance. I agree that the T14 give you a better shot a "better" jobs, but nothing is shut off just because your school isn't numbered 1-14. UGA puts people into prestigious clerkships every year. Yes there are a smaller number of people from outside of the t14 just as there are fewer jobs for T14 kids compared to HYS. My point is that your assertion that some opportunities are simply not open to non T14 students is false.
you said "The simple truth is that choosing to go to a non-T14 is choosing to close doors." I disagree.


Ok. Keep telling yourself that the opportunities are the same because 'there's a chance.' It's just not a realistic chance. As to UGA and clerkships, I'm sure a very small handful get clerkships. But, you dramatically underappreciate how difficult the current clerkship market is. Go over to the legal employment forum and read the clerkship threads to get a realistic picture of current clerkship hiring.

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johnnyutah
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:05 pm

Veyron wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


Well, kinda. The other true advantage is that you are guaranteed 20-30 BIGLAW interviews just for having a pulse.

Is that how many your class was getting? Holy shit. Even the luckiest folks with the best bid strategies in class of 2011 weren't getting more than 20 or so. I'm glad things are turning around.

WVUguy11
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:21 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby WVUguy11 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:13 pm

Top schools provide the paper necessary to obtain a decent job right out of school. 5 years out of school your competence is weighted more heavily than what your piece of paper says. That is why working hard and being charismatic is more beneficial, in the long run, than where you go/went to school.




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