All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

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Veyron
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:29 pm

Drake014 wrote:Did someone change the meaning of T-1? I thought T-1 were the top 100 schools. No?


T-1 has always been the top 50, US News just uses a confusing format.

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Drake014
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:30 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


The problem is a lot of people don't know how to network the right way.

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Veyron
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:30 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


Well, kinda. The other true advantage is that you are guaranteed 20-30 BIGLAW interviews just for having a pulse.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ran12 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:31 pm

Drake014 wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


The problem is a lot of people don't know how to network the right way.


Yea you're right. I'm in b-school right now so they do a lot to get us ready to network the right way but from what I've seen and read, seems like law schools say to network but don't prepare students.

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Veyron
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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:31 pm

Drake014 wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


The problem is a lot of people don't know how to network the right way.


And, you're kinda ignoring how much easier networking is when you can drop the name of a T-14. Even though I think it seems kinda brash, I've had several practicing attorneys advise me to drop the name up front. This advice has proven good.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Z3RO » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:33 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.

Oh God, if only the bold were true.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:34 pm

What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:36 pm

Z3RO wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.

Oh God, if only the bold were true.


Its not 100% true, but the vast majority of the people at Penn are graduating with a job that involves getting paid to actually practice law.
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:37 pm

Z3RO wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.

Oh God, if only the bold were true.


Teach me how to network "the right way" PLEASE.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:38 pm

AreJay711 wrote:What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.


Most of the time when people say "networking" they are referring to something that doesnt exist. The way to do REAL networking is to maintain relationships with people in your life who have been past employers, mentors, acquaintances, etc. You update them on where you are going to school, where you are working, where you are moving, stuff like that. Most of the time networking takes place over many months or years. You dont just meet someone and trade business cards and later ask them for a job.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Grizz » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:40 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


You can't network you way into jobs that don't exist hurr durr

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ran12 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:40 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.


Most of the time when people say "networking" they are referring to something that doesnt exist. The way to do REAL networking is to maintain relationships with people in your life who have been past employers, mentors, acquaintances, etc. You update them on where you are going to school, where you are working, where you are moving, stuff like that. Most of the time networking takes place over many months or years. You dont just meet someone and trade business cards and later ask them for a job.


Yea that's def true. But people are bound to meet a bunch of lawyers and people who know lawyers while in school that they can form relationships with and possibly get help down the line during 3L.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby luckyme » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:45 pm

rad law wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


You can't network you way into jobs that don't exist hurr durr


lol

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:48 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


It's not that simple. There are many firms that do not hire outside of the T14, and when they do hire, only hire 1 or 2 people ever few years. Also, the clerkship opportunities are far more limited outside the T14.

If you want to be a lawyer, there are plenty of good schools that allow you to accomplish that. However, the T14 offers opportunities unavailable outside of the T14 (or T25).

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:49 pm

god, i go to a tier 1 and i don't know why i'm here.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby arhmcpo » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:45 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The dean at my school gave a really nice presentation at admitted students day that made me feel like my school was on the rise.

lol


I didn't know "on the rise" was such a controversial statement for ppl - maybe its just a slow news day for you. Rather than an 0L being super duper impressed by a dean saying the school is GREAT - I meant that the school I go to is a relatively young law school that has had its lsat and gpa averages rise (there's that bad word again) each year for the last 6 years, and has seen an increase in OCI employers. By no means would I imply that the school is amazing - I simply said that the school was improving or on the rise; and what I meant by that was seeing quantitative improvement in areas I valued that make me think the value of my degree will improve overtime as well.

vamedic03 wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


Its tough everywhere ITE. T14 definitely carries clerkship and biglaw opportunities that other schools lack; but to assume T14ers have "guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door" seems to ignore reality.

+1 that clerkship and BigLaw opportunities are severely limited outside the T14 - but anyone thinking that T14ers are "guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door" has spent no time on this board/is outta touch with reality. Its tough everyone ITE if ya don't go to HYS

It's not that simple. There are many firms that do not hire outside of the T14, and when they do hire, only hire 1 or 2 people ever few years. Also, the clerkship opportunities are far more limited outside the T14.

If you want to be a lawyer, there are plenty of good schools that allow you to accomplish that. However, the T14 offers opportunities unavailable outside of the T14 (or T25).

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:58 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.


Most of the time when people say "networking" they are referring to something that doesnt exist. The way to do REAL networking is to maintain relationships with people in your life who have been past employers, mentors, acquaintances, etc. You update them on where you are going to school, where you are working, where you are moving, stuff like that. Most of the time networking takes place over many months or years. You dont just meet someone and trade business cards and later ask them for a job.


bingo!

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby guinness » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:28 pm

arhmcpo wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The dean at my school gave a really nice presentation at admitted students day that made me feel like my school was on the rise.

lol


I didn't know "on the rise" was such a controversial statement for ppl - maybe its just a slow news day for you. Rather than an 0L being super duper impressed by a dean saying the school is GREAT - I meant that the school I go to is a relatively young law school that has had its lsat and gpa averages rise (there's that bad word again) each year for the last 6 years, and has seen an increase in OCI employers. By no means would I imply that the school is amazing - I simply said that the school was improving or on the rise; and what I meant by that was seeing quantitative improvement in areas I valued that make me think the value of my degree will improve overtime as well.

vamedic03 wrote:
ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


Its tough everywhere ITE. T14 definitely carries clerkship and biglaw opportunities that other schools lack; but to assume T14ers have "guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door" seems to ignore reality.

+1 that clerkship and BigLaw opportunities are severely limited outside the T14 - but anyone thinking that T14ers are "guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door" has spent no time on this board/is outta touch with reality. Its tough everyone ITE if ya don't go to HYS

It's not that simple. There are many firms that do not hire outside of the T14, and when they do hire, only hire 1 or 2 people ever few years. Also, the clerkship opportunities are far more limited outside the T14.

If you want to be a lawyer, there are plenty of good schools that allow you to accomplish that. However, the T14 offers opportunities unavailable outside of the T14 (or T25).


Nicely done.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:33 pm

ran12 wrote:The only true advantage to going to a T14 is that you're pretty much guaranteed connections and an easy foot in the door. Honestly, anyone who knows how to network the right way and doesn't screw up in law school will get a good law job. The academic quality of the schools in the top 100 or so schools doesn't vary so much that someone at the lower ranked schools is at a severe academic disadvantage.


But the good jobs don't recruit at the lower ranked schools. I agree with other parts of what you say, but it is hard to open the door when you can't find it.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:37 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:What do people mean when they say "how to network". I just figured that was to talk to people. I've gotten jobs through networking but it was more luck than anything.

<--- clearly doesn't know how to network.


Most of the time when people say "networking" they are referring to something that doesnt exist. The way to do REAL networking is to maintain relationships with people in your life who have been past employers, mentors, acquaintances, etc. You update them on where you are going to school, where you are working, where you are moving, stuff like that. Most of the time networking takes place over many months or years. You dont just meet someone and trade business cards and later ask them for a job.


bingo!


I agree and disagree. Most of the time networking does require relationship maintenance. However the right kind of person can easily turn chance meeting into job inquiries and opportunities (if there happens to be jobs available on the other side). The right kind of self-promotion can easily turn a new connection into a job, but obviously it depends on the person and some people have it, and some don't.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:27 pm

arhmcpo wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:The dean at my school gave a really nice presentation at admitted students day that made me feel like my school was on the rise.

lol


I didn't know "on the rise" was such a controversial statement for ppl - maybe its just a slow news day for you. Rather than an 0L being super duper impressed by a dean saying the school is GREAT - I meant that the school I go to is a relatively young law school that has had its lsat and gpa averages rise (there's that bad word again) each year for the last 6 years, and has seen an increase in OCI employers. By no means would I imply that the school is amazing - I simply said that the school was improving or on the rise; and what I meant by that was seeing quantitative improvement in areas I valued that make me think the value of my degree will improve overtime as well.

[quote="vamedic03"][quote="ran12"]


Turning to other news: Sea levels are also on the rise. Scientists blame Veryon, who has just thrown a pebble in the ocean.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:39 pm

I often feel like an outsider on TLS, as I have no desire to work in BigLaw. I'm going to law school to (hopefully) land a job with a non-profit organization or a firm with a heavy commitment to public service-type work.

I'm applying to and considering non-Tier 1 schools because that's where I can attend for much less money. I am aware that my future employment will not leave me dancing in a rainbow of money, so I don't feel the need to shoot for the T14 schools and their massive debt loads. Additionally, I feel a lot of T2 (and even some T3) schools have a much more pronounced dedication to public service. That's what really matters to me.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:47 pm

ect88 wrote:I often feel like an outsider on TLS, as I have no desire to work in BigLaw. I'm going to law school to (hopefully) land a job with a non-profit organization or a firm with a heavy commitment to public service-type work.

I'm applying to and considering non-Tier 1 schools because that's where I can attend for much less money. I am aware that my future employment will not leave me dancing in a rainbow of money, so I don't feel the need to shoot for the T14 schools and their massive debt loads. Additionally, I feel a lot of T2 (and even some T3) schools have a much more pronounced dedication to public service. That's what really matters to me.


Lol, public service, can be, and often is just as competitive and prestige focused as biglaw. The T-14 has LRAP programs for those that want to do PI that minimize debt, the only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is that PI oriented people go there in greater numbers because of the misconception that PI is easy to crack.

There is no shortage of lawyers out there that would love the opportunity to make 40gran doing PI, if you want to help the poor, there are better uses of your time and money.

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:53 pm

Veyron wrote:
The only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is because it's easier to explain minuscule firm hiring as a side effect of a philosophical and idealogical difference between you and your peers and the types of student your school attracts. t


FTFY

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Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby ect88 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Veyron wrote:
ect88 wrote:I often feel like an outsider on TLS, as I have no desire to work in BigLaw. I'm going to law school to (hopefully) land a job with a non-profit organization or a firm with a heavy commitment to public service-type work.

I'm applying to and considering non-Tier 1 schools because that's where I can attend for much less money. I am aware that my future employment will not leave me dancing in a rainbow of money, so I don't feel the need to shoot for the T14 schools and their massive debt loads. Additionally, I feel a lot of T2 (and even some T3) schools have a much more pronounced dedication to public service. That's what really matters to me.


Lol, public service, can be, and often is just as competitive and prestige focused as biglaw. The T-14 has LRAP programs for those that want to do PI that minimize debt, the only reason that lower tier schools appear PI focused is that PI oriented people go there in greater numbers because of the misconception that PI is easy to crack.

There is no shortage of lawyers out there that would love the opportunity to make 40gran doing PI, if you want to help the poor, there are better uses of your time and money.


I disagree. I feel like PI-oriented students go to some lower tier schools because they really do have more of a dedication to the field. Many of their clinics and pro-bono programs speak directly to the type of work we want to do. In my research, I've found there are more of these opportunities at some lower-ranked schools.

I see your point with the LRAP programs, which are very beneficial to PI-focused students. However, many of these programs have very strict guidelines which make it difficult to ensure you receive all they have to offer. Say you and your spouse want to have a child and that means you taking time off from your career for a few years -- now you're stuck with that huge T14 debt and LRAP won't help you anymore. I'd rather pay less with less restrictions on what I can do with my future.

Also...sure, there might be better uses of my time and money. But I'm choosing this because it's what I want to do.




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