All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
vamedic03
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:55 pm

legalkitty wrote:First, this may blow some of your mind's, but not everyone who goes to law school is intending on practicing law. There are many people who already have jobs such as in accounting, the police force, public administration, lobbying, and even the medical field, who are going to law school to advance the career they already have or to become learned. Thus why would you spend over $100K to keep the same job? that would be illogical, hence the reason for going to a lower tier school where in some cases the tuition may be significantly lower (in many but not all).

Second, something else that may blow your minds. Not everyone can pick up and moved to a city at the drop of a hat. Many people have family obligations such as their own children or caring for an elderly parent. Therefore, going to their local law school or an online law school is their only option.

Third, although many of you are betting that you will make enough money upon exiting law school to pay off your student loans - not everyone is of the gambling type. There are only so many top firm positions and getting a top firm position also requires that you have received top grades. Further, not everyone wants a big firm job. Instead they already know what kind of lawyer they want to be such as a public defender, legal aid, or work with a non profit. Therefore, going to a top tier school with all the debt that comes with it, is not a smart choice.

Thus, I think if you are having a hard time understanding why people go to lower tier schools then you might want to think about all the arguments out there.


Being a condescending jerk is not the best way to win an argument.

(1) Going to law school with the goal of never becoming a lawyer and maintaining your current career represents probably <5% of law students. FWIW, it's probably not a good idea - law school is professional training that, if you're not going to practice and actually become/stay current on a particular area of the law, gives you just enough information to be dangerous. Maybe it would help you recognize when you need to consult a lawyer, but it won't help you actually answer any legal issues (unless you're paying for a Westlaw account and have the time to research every time a legal issue comes up). But, if you just want to have a JD, power to you.

(2) If someone has family obligations that keeps them from moving, that's fine. But, they should really reconsider going to law school if their only options are low ranked schools. There is a serious of incurring significant debt and having minimal job prospects. And no one should even consider 'attending' an 'online' law school — these simply are not real law schools. (after all, would you go to a doctor who attended an 'online' med school?)

(3) A lot of people who want to work in public interest recognize that one of the great things about the top law schools is that they all have loan repayment programs for public interest/public service. Sure, going to a T-14 might incur 200k of debt, but if you work in public interest you'll never have to pay a cent of that debt.

Look, not everyone can get into a top law school - whether it's because of a grades, scores, or family obligations. That's fine. But, people should be honest with themselves and recognize (a) the risk that is incurred by going to some of these law schools and (b) that they shouldn't have a chip on their shoulder about the 'superiority' of non-top law schools.

Finally, this board is called TLS because it is oriented towards the top law schools.

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:01 pm

Going to school just to get the degree and not be a lawyer may have made sense in the 1980s but in this day and age, when the degree costs six figures, it is a dumb life move. Need to adjust to the times and not do what sounded cool years ago.

User avatar
smittelman6
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:08 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby smittelman6 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:08 pm

i think this thread has gotten way out of hand. yes, there are jobs for people who go to non-T14 schools. no, they are not going to pay you 100k. if you get good grades and go to a t1 or t2 school, you will probably get some sort of job (again, probably not in biglaw) at some point after graduation. anyone who tells you otherwise is only trying to tear you down (and on here, the reasons for that are somewhat difficult for me to grasp).

i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

i'm personally VERY EXCITED to go to my T2 law school in an amazing region where i have always wanted to live, to become a lawyer which is a career i've always wanted, and to find a job where i can help people and make a difference. and if in three years im on the street crying with 150k in debt and no job, it won't make an ounce of difference to you-- you'll be sitting in your office at skadden booking a hundred thousand billable hours a year, making an insane amount of money, and you will be happy. because this is what you want. so why do you always seem to feel the need to rip apart anyone who doesn't have exactly the same dream?

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:25 pm

smittelman6 wrote:i think this thread has gotten way out of hand. yes, there are jobs for people who go to non-T14 schools. no, they are not going to pay you 100k. if you get good grades and go to a t1 or t2 school, you will probably get some sort of job (again, probably not in biglaw) at some point after graduation. anyone who tells you otherwise is only trying to tear you down (and on here, the reasons for that are somewhat difficult for me to grasp).

i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

i'm personally VERY EXCITED to go to my T2 law school in an amazing region where i have always wanted to live, to become a lawyer which is a career i've always wanted, and to find a job where i can help people and make a difference. and if in three years im on the street crying with 150k in debt and no job, it won't make an ounce of difference to you-- you'll be sitting in your office at skadden booking a hundred thousand billable hours a year, making an insane amount of money, and you will be happy. because this is what you want. so why do you always seem to feel the need to rip apart anyone who doesn't have exactly the same dream?


Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.

User avatar
smittelman6
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:08 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby smittelman6 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:45 pm

Veyron wrote:Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.



you are the reason people hate lawyers.

User avatar
Hank Chill
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:53 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Hank Chill » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:00 pm

Veyron wrote:
smittelman6 wrote:i think this thread has gotten way out of hand. yes, there are jobs for people who go to non-T14 schools. no, they are not going to pay you 100k. if you get good grades and go to a t1 or t2 school, you will probably get some sort of job (again, probably not in biglaw) at some point after graduation. anyone who tells you otherwise is only trying to tear you down (and on here, the reasons for that are somewhat difficult for me to grasp).

i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

i'm personally VERY EXCITED to go to my T2 law school in an amazing region where i have always wanted to live, to become a lawyer which is a career i've always wanted, and to find a job where i can help people and make a difference. and if in three years im on the street crying with 150k in debt and no job, it won't make an ounce of difference to you-- you'll be sitting in your office at skadden booking a hundred thousand billable hours a year, making an insane amount of money, and you will be happy. because this is what you want. so why do you always seem to feel the need to rip apart anyone who doesn't have exactly the same dream?


Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

too old for this sh*
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby too old for this sh* » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:05 pm

Veyron wrote:Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


for once you write something with which I can agree...but competence to practice law has NOTHING to do with the JD-granting institution. Just as UGPA and LSAT do little to determine how competent one may or may not be following their passage of the Bar.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:14 pm

Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


Plenty of T14 grads are incompetent. See e.g., Kashmir Hill, Disbarred Stanford Grad Trades Counsel for Coitus and Is Now Trying to Set Up Shop in South Carolina, Above The Law (May 11, 2009, 6:17 PM), http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/disbarre ... -carolina/.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:18 pm

Danteshek wrote:
Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


Plenty of T14 grads are incompetent. See e.g., Kashmir Hill, Disbarred Stanford Grad Trades Counsel for Coitus and Is Now Trying to Set Up Shop in South Carolina, Above The Law (May 11, 2009, 6:17 PM), http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/disbarre ... -carolina/.


Yes, but percentages? Let's take a macro perspective because the question is not on the personal level.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:23 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


Plenty of T14 grads are incompetent. See e.g., Kashmir Hill, Disbarred Stanford Grad Trades Counsel for Coitus and Is Now Trying to Set Up Shop in South Carolina, Above The Law (May 11, 2009, 6:17 PM), http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/disbarre ... -carolina/.


Yes, but percentages? Let's take a macro perspective because the question is not on the personal level.


Sure. I think if you did a study you would find a pretty big drop-off after the top 100 schools. Maybe a law review article has already been written on the topic?

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:28 pm

too old for this sh* wrote:
Veyron wrote:Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


for once you write something with which I can agree...but competence to practice law has NOTHING to do with the JD-granting institution. Just as UGPA and LSAT do little to determine how competent one may or may not be following their passage of the Bar.


Correct, it does have nothing to do with the JD granting institution. However, UGPA and LSAT score have a great deal to do with raw intelligence which has a lot to do with competence. Someone with a 4.0 and a 180 is obviously going to come out of Cooley ready to hit the ground running, its just that he probably wouldn't go to Cooley in the first place.

you are the reason people hate lawyers.


I hope so.

User avatar
smittelman6
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:08 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby smittelman6 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:32 pm

Marc Dreier certainly brings great pride to the legal profession. Thanks HLS.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby dr123 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:39 pm

Danteshek wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


Plenty of T14 grads are incompetent. See e.g., Kashmir Hill, Disbarred Stanford Grad Trades Counsel for Coitus and Is Now Trying to Set Up Shop in South Carolina, Above The Law (May 11, 2009, 6:17 PM), http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/disbarre ... -carolina/.


Yes, but percentages? Let's take a macro perspective because the question is not on the personal level.


Sure. I think if you did a study you would find a pretty big drop-off after the top 100 schools. Maybe a law review article has already been written on the topic?


I'd really like to know what the difference between William Mitchell and St Thomas (MN) or UIdaho and U of Utah

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:05 pm

You would probably have to control for differences in disbarment rates across state lines. It would difficult to do the study correctly. It would be a good topic for the Journal of Legal Education, assuming it hasn't already been done.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby dr123 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:07 pm

fyi I was implying there is little to no difference between these schools even though one is t2 and one is t3. The difference between t2 and t3 is rather negligible, imo. There are T3 schools that have considerably better prospects than T2 schools and vice versa

For example I'd be willing be bet the employment prospects are better for Wyoming grads than Loyola chicago grads

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Danteshek » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:16 am

dr123 wrote:For example I'd be willing be bet the employment prospects are better for Wyoming grads than Loyola chicago grads


Apples and oranges.

Fark-o-vision
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:23 am

To frustrate MTal.

/thread

jeremysen
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:07 am

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby jeremysen » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:31 am

Veyron wrote:Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


does not credit potential intellectual growth in ls and simpleness of many legal jobs

User avatar
GATORTIM
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:51 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby GATORTIM » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:41 am

Veyron wrote:
smittelman6 wrote:i think this thread has gotten way out of hand. yes, there are jobs for people who go to non-T14 schools. no, they are not going to pay you 100k. if you get good grades and go to a t1 or t2 school, you will probably get some sort of job (again, probably not in biglaw) at some point after graduation. anyone who tells you otherwise is only trying to tear you down (and on here, the reasons for that are somewhat difficult for me to grasp).

i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

i'm personally VERY EXCITED to go to my T2 law school in an amazing region where i have always wanted to live, to become a lawyer which is a career i've always wanted, and to find a job where i can help people and make a difference. and if in three years im on the street crying with 150k in debt and no job, it won't make an ounce of difference to you-- you'll be sitting in your office at skadden booking a hundred thousand billable hours a year, making an insane amount of money, and you will be happy. because this is what you want. so why do you always seem to feel the need to rip apart anyone who doesn't have exactly the same dream?


Because incompetent lawyers tarnish the profession and do a disservice to clients.


Incompetent lawyers taught by professors that attended T-14 schools? You do realize that law was not always taught in a "school" and was an on-the-job training career.

jayman6
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby jayman6 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:36 am

Perhaps you don't realize that it's not impossible to get a decent job at a Tier 2 school. A lot of Tier 2's do just fine. Granted, things are more difficult now, but keep in mind that some people might settle for a Tier 2 because they have received full or near full rides and would rather be debt free at a Tier 2 than go at sticker to a Tier 1.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:44 am

I look forward to bumping this thread in three years. I hope some of you chipper and enthusiastic little 0Ls will come back here and share stories about your job search.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:50 am

smittelman6 wrote:i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

This made me lol.

Yes, all the T14 students on this site are angry about a bunch of lower tiered students' choice of law school. It keeps them up at night tossing and turning with rage just thinking about all those lower tiered students they will likely not have to compete with for jobs. I'm sure it has everything to do with anger and it has nothing to do with their concern for the sorry state of the legal market or a desire to convey to people the truth about their school and job prospects.

User avatar
holdencaulfield
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:12 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby holdencaulfield » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:58 am

romothesavior wrote:
smittelman6 wrote:i don't understand why everyone on TLS who goes to/will go to a T14 school feels this uncontrollable need to rip apart anyone who doesnt. no, we're not (neccesarily) jealous. yes, we probably would have gone to a T14 school had we gotten in/been able to move/wanted to pay for it, but we didn't/weren't/don't. so we are going to a school that is not as good as yours... and this makes you angry.... why? it's our choice. we either thought it through, or didn't, and we are the ones who will deal with our own job searches when the time comes-- not you.

This made me lol.

Yes, all the T14 students on this site are angry about a bunch of lower tiered students' choice of law school. It keeps them up at night tossing and turning with rage just thinking about all those lower tiered students they will likely not have to compete with for jobs. I'm sure it has everything to do with anger and it has nothing to do with their concern for the sorry state of the legal market or a desire to convey to people the truth about their school and job prospects.


I don't think it's anger, but it reminds of the rich girl at school who drove a mercedes and just couldn't fathom having to drive a used honda or nissan. "OMG, I would DIE if I had to drive that car."

It's a very flawed analogy and I know it's not the real case. That's just how it sometimes is perceived.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:05 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:I don't think it's anger, but it reminds of the rich girl at school who drove a mercedes and just couldn't fathom having to drive a used honda or nissan. "OMG, I would DIE if I had to drive that car."

It's a very flawed analogy and I know it's not the real case. That's just how it sometimes is perceived.

It is perceived that way because 0Ls would rather view the 2Ls and 3Ls who warn them about the legal market and shitty schools they want to attend as elitists rather than actually listen to what they say. I've been around TLS long enough and seen enough crying and chastising by the low-post 0L posters to know it is willful, reckless ignorance that motivates their thinking. It is a "la la la can't hear you!" type of attitude.

Also, your analogy doesn't work because that isn't even close to how the majority of TLSers think. I'd go to school at a Tier 3 school in a second if it meant I could get a respectable job and pay off my debt, and I think most other posters on here would say the same. It isn't a BMW vs. Honda thing, its a "Maybe I'll Get a Good Job" vs. "Almost Certain Unemployment" thing.

cowgirl_bebop
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school?

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:11 pm

This thread seems to have devolved from questioning those who attend T2 schools to:

1. Bashing those who attend a T14 accusing them of being elitist bastards
2. Bashing those who dont attend a T14 accusing them of being inferior, soon-to-be unemployed bastards

Of course the T14 is the ideal choice, but for those who dont get in or cannot afford it then a strong regional school is a fine choice as well. There is no reason to knock someone going to a T1 school on a nice scholly thats strong in their region, nor is their any reason to knock a student headed to a T14 that is strong pretty much everywhere. Everyone here seems to be happy with their choice of school, so what is the purpose of attacking the other side?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Clearly, nubcs and 12 guests