The "Truth" About Law School

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cornellbeez
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:Being unemployed and six figures in debt or doing temporary doc review for $20 an hour with a degree from a T20 law school is on par with working in a mall for 40 hours a week and making enough money to make your student loan payments every month and feed your family of four? GTFO here if you really think that is even remotely comparable. Also, there are maybe 15,000-20,000 permanent legal jobs for 45,000 graduates. You're saying that dentists and doctors face the same market?

I don't mean this to be a jerk, but you just sound like you want to lazily walk your way into riches without any risk of adversity, financial hardship, or hard work.


hahaha

good post, seriously

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:38 pm

BobCostas wrote:I never expected to stop at the B.Sc level, hence why I haven't. I'm pretty sure I want to pursue law, but I want to make sure I'm fully aware of the risks and that I have realistic expectations before committing to it.

Alright, that is respectable and very smart of you. Far too many people make the unwise decision to attend law school (often poor law schools) without doing their homework, so I tip my cap to you. But I can assure that law is in far, far worse shape than any of the professions you just mentioned.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:38 pm

BobCostas wrote:Nope definitely didn't confuse these two things. I put a fairly significant amount of research into all of these careers and medicine, dentistry, optometry and science (specifically biology and chemistry) are not as wonderful as they seem. Their respective professional schools will preach high attrition rates, increased demand etc but in reality it's a similar situation. Medical, Dental and Optometry schools are being opened up at quite a rate as well, and the standards to get into those schools isn't much higher than it is for Law Schools. A 300 on the OAT, an 18 on the DAT, a 27 on the MCAT combined with a GPA above 3 can give you a pretty good shot, it just depends how much you're willing to spend. Hop over to student doctor forums and you'll see people talking about the professions with the same pessimism I see on TLS.

Some people have said they know tons of lawyers who aren't in a good position. Well I know tons of doctors, dentists, optometrists and biologists facing similar fates. In fact, the people who I know who are the best off are....lawyers! I will admit I don't know nearly as many of them, but 100% of the ones I do know are rich.

I'm just failing to see any concrete evidence that the law profession is in that bad of shape, or that it's significantly worse than the other professions I've mentioned. I am most definitely very concerned, but I'm also somewhat skeptical.


i still dont see how that means they are unstable professions (at least for a doctor or dentist, i cant speak for the other two). the chances of a newly minted MD and DDS getting a job are significantly > than a newly minted JD getting a legal job...esp. if you compare their avg. starting salaries. also, your OP was about high initial investment costs of being a dentist -- that is not proof dentistry is an unstable profession at all.

that being said, there is a LOT of concrete evidence that the law profession is in bad shape lol, how have you not seen it? i cant help but not see it -- i mean if you can get yourself into a top law school, preferably without borrowing yourself into the ground, then yeah outlooks are rosier than the apocalyptic spiel we hear every day...but most people are not in that position (or the avg JD isnt in that position even)...relative to doctors or dentists? on a financial security level? not even close

unfortunately, your anecdotal evidence means virtually nothing. i have had the exact opposite experience (when it comes to doctors and dentists and lawyers at least).

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kk19131
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby kk19131 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:39 pm

KeepitKind wrote:OP, pretty impressive you wrote all those test.. have u considered working professionally for a test writing board, like LSAC or the ADA?


... I just can't stop laughing at this. :lol:

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DoubleChecks
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BobCostas wrote:Nursing? Are you deadly serious? Look I don't want to get into a flame war here but nursing is in far worse shape than law.

I am beginning to think you are a troll.


lol yeah...lulwut?

keep in mind OP, we're talking about the avg graduate in x profession vs. the avg graduate in y profession...not the extremes

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:40 pm

Nursing is in dire straights, seriously look in to it.

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to gather information. I appreciate everyone's input and I am taking all of this seriously.

@romo - thank you for providing those statistics. Quantifying something make it much easier to put in perspective.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:42 pm

BobCostas wrote:Nursing is in dire straights, seriously look in to it.

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to gather information. I appreciate everyone's input and I am taking all of this seriously.

@romo - thank you for providing those statistics. Quantifying something make it much easier to put in perspective.


relative to...law? lol

well i guess you cant answer that until you've done more research into law; let me know when you have the answer (not being facetious, im curious now)

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:44 pm

BobCostas wrote:Nursing is in dire straights, seriously look in to it.

Nursing is one of the best fields in the country right now, and figures to grow even more in coming years. My buddy's girlfriend had three job offers in about two weeks. My ex-girlfriend had a job offer within 2-3 weeks of applying, and all her friends got jobs quickly. I think every single nursing major I went to school with or have ever known has easily found a job. And I didn't go to that great of a school either. Nursing is by far one of the easiest jobs to get into right now.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:47 pm

BobCostas wrote:@romo - thank you for providing those statistics. Quantifying something make it much easier to put in perspective.

No problem. Here's some reading for you... its not great, but it is a good starting point for finding out more about the risks of law school:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/lsd/legaled/value.authcheckdam.pdf

09042014
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 pm

And most of those jobs are fucking awful to begin with.

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:49 pm

Well what I've learned about nursing is that they are constantly being replaced.

Say you have 10 nurses working at a private clinic, they're being replaced with 1-2 nurse practitioners and 10+ 2-year medical assistant grads. This is cost effective for the clinic, as they have lower overall costs but don't experience that significant of a drop-off in service. This is becoming fairly common. Perhaps if the increased demand for medical services goes as predicted the demand for nurses will increase, but I've heard that things aren't in great shape currently.


Anyways, I have no desire to be a nurse. As far as law school, I've read the NY times article and a bunch of the blogs, if anyone has additional links, perhaps with more a quantitative approach and ones that don't focus on T4 grads who lived a lavish lifestyle on borrowed money, it would be greatly appreciated

jeremysen
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby jeremysen » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:52 pm

Sensing a significant level of boasting bravado from OP - 99% OAT, ~95% MCAT, etc.

But what'd you get on the LSAT? And what was your GPA? And why didn't you do some of that market research prior to dumping $950+ on testing fees?



Depending on those 2 metrics, we can somewhat predict whether you should pursue law. It seems clear enough that you are in it for $.

ze2151
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby ze2151 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:53 pm

yep, there are tons of nursing jobs... IF you have experience, or IF you're willing to wipe backsides at nursing homes.

it is not all you think it's cracked up to be (pardon the pun).

my wife is a very successful rn, partly because her timing was right. she got a job at one of the best children's hospitals in the country directly out of undergrad. that hospital no longer offers the program by which she got her offer. they don't have to. there are nurses w/ experience lined out the door.

yes you can probably get a nursing job, but i doubt it's all you think it is. it's just ROUGH out there and you have to hustle at whatever you do. nothing is guaranteed. so you better be smart, you better be motivated, and you better be prepared to fail a little.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:54 pm

ze2151 wrote:yep, there are tons of nursing jobs... IF you have experience, or IF you're willing to wipe backsides at nursing homes.

it is not all you think it's cracked up to be (pardon the pun).

All jobs have downsides, and all fields have bad jobs. But every nursing major I know is working in a clinic or a hospital, and I know at least a dozen and they are all new grads with no experience. Maybe people here in the midwest just get sick more? I dunno.

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Adjudicator
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby Adjudicator » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:55 pm

ze2151 wrote:yep, there are tons of nursing jobs... IF you have experience, or IF you're willing to wipe backsides at nursing homes.

it is not all you think it's cracked up to be (pardon the pun).

my wife is a very successful rn, partly because her timing was right. she got a job at one of the best children's hospitals in the country directly out of undergrad. that hospital no longer offers the program by which she got her offer. they don't have to. there are nurses w/ experience lined out the door.

yes you can probably get a nursing job, but i doubt it's all you think it is. it's just ROUGH out there and you have to hustle at whatever you do. nothing is guaranteed. so you better be smart, you better be motivated, and you better be prepared to fail a little.


Truest words in this whole thread.

09042014
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:56 pm

BobCostas wrote:Well what I've learned about nursing is that they are constantly being replaced.

Say you have 10 nurses working at a private clinic, they're being replaced with 1-2 nurse practitioners and 10+ 2-year medical assistant grads. This is cost effective for the clinic, as they have lower overall costs but don't experience that significant of a drop-off in service. This is becoming fairly common. Perhaps if the increased demand for medical services goes as predicted the demand for nurses will increase, but I've heard that things aren't in great shape currently.


Anyways, I have no desire to be a nurse. As far as law school, I've read the NY times article and a bunch of the blogs, if anyone has additional links, perhaps with more a quantitative approach and ones that don't focus on T4 grads who lived a lavish lifestyle on borrowed money, it would be greatly appreciated


In order to make a decision about law school you have to consider the type of school you can get into. Lower t14 have probably 60% chance of getting big law, fed gov, or something good enough to pay their loans. T6 probably has 70%. HLS 85%, YS nobody really knows.

Above T18 that drops down to below 20%. After T1 it's below 15%. And by T3, it's probably 5%.

Below T18 any more debt than 60K is probably a mistake.

jeremysen
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby jeremysen » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:56 pm

Oh and to answer your question, law is pretty bad right now.

Check out the Career statistics over the last 5 years for various top law schools. Also, I'm sure there's an NLRG analysis on the legal market, and the ABA might provide some #'s as well. I remember there's a TLS thread titled something along the lines of: ABA article trying to convince law applicants against pursuing law school

jeremysen
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby jeremysen » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:In order to make a decision about law school you have to consider the type of school you can get into. Lower t14 have probably 60% chance of getting big law, fed gov, or something good enough to pay their loans. T6 probably has 70%. HLS 85%, YS nobody really knows.

Above T18 that drops down to below 20%. After T1 it's below 15%. And by T3, it's probably 5%.

Below T18 any more debt than 60K is probably a mistake.

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BobCostas wrote:@romo - thank you for providing those statistics. Quantifying something make it much easier to put in perspective.

No problem. Here's some reading for you... its not great, but it is a good starting point for finding out more about the risks of law school:


http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/lsd/legaled/value.authcheckdam.pdf


Pretty solid link, thank you.

Also, I was not attempting to boast with respect to my other test scores. Besides, the OAT is literally the easiest test ever created, I was just attempting to convey my point which was that I was not pursuing law school because it was my only resort. I apologize if it came off as such.

As far law school, my intention throughout this whole process was to attend Arizona State. I have family in Phoenix, have visited the city many times and love the climate. I never had aspirations of the T14 (granted this was before I read the tls articles on law school) and would be fully content practicing in the southwest US.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
BobCostas wrote:Well what I've learned about nursing is that they are constantly being replaced.

Say you have 10 nurses working at a private clinic, they're being replaced with 1-2 nurse practitioners and 10+ 2-year medical assistant grads. This is cost effective for the clinic, as they have lower overall costs but don't experience that significant of a drop-off in service. This is becoming fairly common. Perhaps if the increased demand for medical services goes as predicted the demand for nurses will increase, but I've heard that things aren't in great shape currently.


Anyways, I have no desire to be a nurse. As far as law school, I've read the NY times article and a bunch of the blogs, if anyone has additional links, perhaps with more a quantitative approach and ones that don't focus on T4 grads who lived a lavish lifestyle on borrowed money, it would be greatly appreciated


In order to make a decision about law school you have to consider the type of school you can get into. Lower t14 have probably 60% chance of getting big law, fed gov, or something good enough to pay their loans. T6 probably has 70%. HLS 85%, YS nobody really knows.

Above T18 that drops down to below 20%. After T1 it's below 15%. And by T3, it's probably 5%.

Below T18 any more debt than 60K is probably a mistake.

Didn't your dean come up with some calculation showing that ~60k is what people need to make in order to really pay off their loans?

So you're saying less than 20% of T20-30 students are going to have starting salaries over 60k? And what about all the people who are going to do PI and get IBR/LRAP?

I get your point and I agree with your message, but you constantly exaggerate how bad things are outside the T14.

09042014
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:10 pm

romothesavior wrote:Didn't your dean come up with some calculation showing that ~60k is what people need to make in order to really pay off their loans?

So you're saying less than 20% of T20-30 students are going to have starting salaries over 60k? And what about all the people who are going to do PI and get IBR/LRAP?

I get your point and I agree with your message, but you constantly exaggerate how bad things are outside the T14.


His calculations showed that law school added value after 60K compared to the average college graduate. IIRC he used long term repayment. I'm not sure I buy it.

PI is a lifestyle choice not a backup plan. There aren't that many PI jobs available.

How many of WUSTL class of 2011 are looking at jobs that pay 60K or more? At NU the people who don't have anything before graduation are scrambling for anything.
Last edited by 09042014 on Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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prezidentv8
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:10 pm

BobCostas wrote:Besides, the OAT is literally the easiest test ever created


Quoted for use of term "literally." See California high school exit exam.

jeremysen
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby jeremysen » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:11 pm

BobCostas wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
BobCostas wrote:@romo - thank you for providing those statistics. Quantifying something make it much easier to put in perspective.

No problem. Here's some reading for you... its not great, but it is a good starting point for finding out more about the risks of law school:


http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/lsd/legaled/value.authcheckdam.pdf


Pretty solid link, thank you.

Also, I was not attempting to boast with respect to my other test scores. Besides, the OAT is literally the easiest test ever created, I was just attempting to convey my point which was that I was not pursuing law school because it was my only resort. I apologize if it came off as such.

As far law school, my intention throughout this whole process was to attend Arizona State. I have family in Phoenix, have visited the city many times and love the climate. I never had aspirations of the T14 (granted this was before I read the tls articles on law school) and would be fully content practicing in the southwest US.



that's fair - best luck on your pursuits. 42% (indicated in romo's aba article) of students would graduate with <65k.

omg
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby omg » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:34 pm

BobCostas wrote:Nursing is in dire straights, seriously look in to it.


Huh, look at this nurse gracing CNN's recent "Best Bets for Jobs in 2011" story. Someone must not have told him what dire straits his profession is in.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/01/07/be ... =allsearch

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Didn't your dean come up with some calculation showing that ~60k is what people need to make in order to really pay off their loans?

So you're saying less than 20% of T20-30 students are going to have starting salaries over 60k? And what about all the people who are going to do PI and get IBR/LRAP?

I get your point and I agree with your message, but you constantly exaggerate how bad things are outside the T14.


His calculations showed that law school added value after 60K compared to the average college graduate. IIRC he used long term repayment. I'm not sure I buy it.

PI is a lifestyle choice not a backup plan. There aren't that many PI jobs available.

How many of WUSTL class of 2011 are looking at jobs that pay 60K or more? At NU the people who don't have anything before graduation are scrambling for anything.

Yeah I agree with you about PI, but I'm just saying you can't claim that <20% can manage their payments and ignore PI. And while I definitely don't think it can be a backup plan because there are few PI jobs, my gameplan is to work for the AG/DA/government this summer knowing it won't hurt me for a biglaw gig at OCI, and if I strike out at OCI, I'll at least have put myself into a position for possibly doing prosecution. Would never get rich doing it, but I think it would be an interesting job and allow me to handle my debts.

As for how many are looking at 60k or more, I really don't know for sure, but I'd be absolutely appalled (and probably just drop out now) if it was under 20%.




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