The "Truth" About Law School

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:56 pm

BobCostas wrote:Science is unstable
Optometry is unstable
Dentistry is unstable
Medicine is unstable
Is Law school that bad??

Not sure what you mean by "unstable," but none of the professions you just listed really strike me as unstable. Certainly no walk in the park, and certainly not easy to break into (especially early in a career), but I don't think unstable is the right word. I don't see the doctors and the dentists facing mass layoffs anytime soon.

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Patriot1208
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby Patriot1208 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:57 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:have to disagree with OP on dentistry...if not only because he totally did not make a strong connection there

sorry OP, logic fail :( might need that for law school

high initial capital investment costs != unstable profession

The average doctor and the average dentist will both make much more money long term than the average lawyer.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:04 pm

vamedic03 wrote:The OP is too risk adverse. If you don't take some risks, you will never be successful.

Absolutely. Now, this isn't to say blowing 200k on a tier 4 law school or something is a good investment. But if you think any gfield

Knowing both students and practitioners alike in both medicine and dentistry (my mom is in the field of dentistry), I can tell you that the doom and gloom horror stories that plague law are not a part of these other two fields in anywhere near the same degree. Sure, both take a lot of hard work, and dentistry requires a good deal of capital to start up usually, but neither field is an over-saturated, unstable, glutted mess that law is. It is an apples and oranges comparison to say that medicine or dentistry face the same problems as law.

All financial decisions in life involve some form of risk, especially education or starting a business or practice. But for the vast majority of people in medicine and dentistry, the path is one that it is financially viable and relatively low-risk, and it is night and day when compared to the legal economy.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:07 pm

kwais wrote:
invisiblesun wrote:OP: i think a lot of TLS angst fails to take into account that the shitty aspects of the real world don't only apply to the legal profession


I agree, most people around here seem to think that not going to law school will somehow yield a prosperous life in and of itself.

I have never once heard anyone say this in the tens of thousands of posts I have read on here.

Adjudicator wrote:Welcome to TLS, Bob Costas. I really enjoyed your post, as well as your coverage of the Olympics on NBC.

Also, lol

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kwais
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby kwais » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:12 pm

romothesavior wrote:
kwais wrote:
invisiblesun wrote:OP: i think a lot of TLS angst fails to take into account that the shitty aspects of the real world don't only apply to the legal profession


I agree, most people around here seem to think that not going to law school will somehow yield a prosperous life in and of itself.

I have never once heard anyone say this in the tens of thousands of posts I have read on here.

When people say "don't go to law school, there is risk, debt and the possibility of failure" (like every 4 seconds on TLS) this statement seems to imply that risk, debt and failure are not inherent to other paths in life. This is an insulated bunch

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Grizz
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby Grizz » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:13 pm

kwais wrote:I agree, most people around here seem to think that not going to law school will somehow yield a prosperous life in and of itself.


No

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:17 pm

kwais wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
kwais wrote:
invisiblesun wrote:OP: i think a lot of TLS angst fails to take into account that the shitty aspects of the real world don't only apply to the legal profession


I agree, most people around here seem to think that not going to law school will somehow yield a prosperous life in and of itself.

I have never once heard anyone say this in the tens of thousands of posts I have read on here.


When people say "don't go to law school, there is risk, debt and the possibility of failure" (like every 4 seconds on TLS) this statement seems to imply that risk, debt and failure are not inherent to other paths in life. This is an insulated bunch

Possibility of failure exists everywhere, and is very different from probability of failure, which is what law school is for the majority of students at most schools. Also, if someone says "Don't spend $500 on that lotto ticket because it is risky and will likely fail," they aren't implying there is no risk in other areas of life. HTH

Also, learn to quote.

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Dr. Review
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby Dr. Review » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:23 pm

BobCostas wrote:
danquayle wrote:
BobCostas wrote:First off, if law school is such a bad profession, what exactly is a good one?


Pharmacy.


See: Optometry

On-line pharmacies, terrible work hours, wearing a lab coat when it serves absolutely no purpose


Getting a job working 7 days on, 7 days off on 3rd shift til you can get bumped up to daytime (as a worst case schedule) for six figures straight out of school with the ability to work on any corner of any city for the rest of your life sounds bad to you? Also, what the hell difference does it matter why you wear a lab coat? You make it sound like the lab coat is a deal breaker. If it is, why the hell did you go to school for biology? And as long as there are urgent care doctors and college kids who need plan B, ordering your medicine online will pretty much never take over a regular pharmacy.

*edit: the bolded text refers to a place like Walgreens, not even a "best case" scenario

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:31 pm

Perhaps I should clarify in regards to Dentistry. During the process of writing the DAT, I job-shadowed a few dentists and got to know a couple of them pretty well. The dentists I shadowed did not own their own practice, but rather worked for someone who did. They rented a 'chair', worked the worst hours possible (12-8 M-Th, 9-4 Sat) in a mall and really had very little professional freedom. He worked the hours he was told, and while he didn't necessarily have a boss breathing down his neck he was by no means his own employer. He had been practicing for 10 years, still had student loan debt (despite attending dental school in Canada), and although he was able to provide for his family of 4, he was by no means 'wealthy'. He told me that most of the dentist he met were in a similar position to him, and the ones who weren't were either single or had a parent in the industry who hooked them up.

I'm not trying to suggest that there is no need for Dentists, all I'm saying is that it seems almost identical to the legal profession to me in that very few own their own practice and make the big dollars (=biglaw) and the rest kind of fight to make the most of it while paying off their debt.

I also know plenty of doctors who are in a similar position to the dentists I mentioned above. Working in another person's practice and although the hours aren't quite as bad, that is only after a lengthy and expensive residency. I took a class on Health and Society as an undergraduate, and we read countless articles similar to the 'doom-and-gloom' ones posted on TLS in regards to law school. Talking about MDs having to declare bankruptcy because their practices weren't generating enough money to pay for equipment/leased space/administrative staff etc.

Needless to say, I have A LOT of contacts in the clinical professions, unfortunately none of them are in a position to get me a job post graduation.

Now with those previous professions, I think my general dislike of them were perhaps the main reason I didn't pursue them. Optometry is the most monotonous boring job you could imagine, with dentistry only providing a slight improvement. Medicine provides a bit more diversity, but I long ago came to the realization that I was a molecular biologist and had very little interest in physiology. That means to pursue medicine and get back to a molecular biology/genetic area I'd need to do an MD/PhD, but then I'm back to the whole grants/publication rat race I want to avoid.

Law has always been something that I was attracted to. When coming out of high school I was debating taking a B.Sc -> clinical profession vs. BA -> legal profession, but ultimately I decided I'd rather go with the better back-up degree. I was honestly pretty pumped about pursuing a legal career, even at a regional school because it meant I'd get to work in a warm, desirable climate. However, after reading all the articles posted and hearing every person on tls say "HYS or bust!" I'm getting a bit concerned. Considering I'm from Canada and will definitely be paying out-of-state tuition for at least the first year, I'm likely looking at 100k in debt upon completion of this law degree. I have a spouse who will work and offset the living expenses etc. and my family is by no-means broke, but I'd hate to come to them after getting a fancy JD and say "I need a loan...lol". I have no debt from my B.Sc or M.Sc but I don't know how willing I am to roll the dice on a 100k degree if all it's going to net me is a 40k a year job.

The point of my post was that everyone says everything is in the toilet right now. That's kind of the outcome of a global recession, but is the legal profession THAT bad?

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:37 pm

BobCostas wrote:Perhaps I should clarify in regards to Dentistry. During the process of writing the DAT, I job-shadowed a few dentists and got to know a couple of them pretty well. The dentists I shadowed did not own their own practice, but rather worked for someone who did. They rented a 'chair', worked the worst hours possible (12-8 M-Th, 9-4 Sat) in a mall and really had very little professional freedom. He worked the hours he was told, and while he didn't necessarily have a boss breathing down his neck he was by no means his own employer. He had been practicing for 10 years, still had student loan debt (despite attending dental school in Canada), and although he was able to provide for his family of 4, he was by no means 'wealthy'. He told me that most of the dentist he met were in a similar position to him, and the ones who weren't were either single or had a parent in the industry who hooked them up.

I'm not trying to suggest that there is no need for Dentists, all I'm saying is that it seems almost identical to the legal profession to me in that very few own their own practice and make the big dollars (=biglaw) and the rest kind of fight to make the most of it while paying off their debt.

If someone told me I could work 40 hours a week and provide for my family of 4 and get by just fine in the field of law, I would sign on the dotted line. Immediately. In blood.

Not only does the scenario you just painted not "almost identical to the legal profession," it sounds like its about a 180 from the legal profession. Not even comparable.

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kk19131
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby kk19131 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:42 pm

KeepitKind wrote:OP, pretty impressive you wrote all those test.. have u considered working professionally for a test writing board, like LSAC or the ADA?



OMG... I LOLed so hard...

sissyclark
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby sissyclark » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:57 pm

I didnt' read all of your posts, so maybe you addressed this. I think the biggest problem with law school is the fact that the market is just the most saturated, at least compared to pharmacists and medical doctors. Of course, all my evidence is anecdotal, but I was very close to going to med school, and most of my friends are pharmacists/doctors.

I have plenty of friends who are pharmacists, and they definitely do not work the "long hours" that you said they work. Rarely do they work past 7 on most days. That being said, yes, they do have to ring out peoples' groceries. But hey at least they have a job. I do know a couple pharmacists who were out of work. But that pales in comparison to the amount of lawyers out of work.

Medical doctors get paid shit during their residencies and work tremendous hours, but you make every residency sound as though it will last 7 years. That is just false. Most of my friends who are doctors had 2 to 3 year residencies, and are doing great now. This might change in the future, but as of right now, the demand is greater than the supply.

That's the unique problem with law school. There are just too many damn law schools. There are law schools for the brilliant, and law schools for idiots. More than half will end up without jobs. It's not just about the fact that lawyers have to work extremely hard. Any profession worth being in is going to have insane hours, at least in the beginning. I think you paint too bleak a picture for the other professions. The prospects still aren't quite as bad as for lawyers.

MrAnon
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:05 pm

There is some barrier to entry in all of the professions you discussed except for law. For law school the only requirements are a 2.7 GPA and 150 LSAT. Money is not a problem since even people with bad credit get federal loans. Lowest barrier of entry = most saturated = in most debased profession of the bunch.

09042014
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:10 pm

BobCostas wrote:
tl;dr
Science is unstable
Optometry is unstable
Dentistry is unstable
Medicine is unstable
Is Law school that bad??


Engineering, dentistry and medicine are not unstable.

Law wouldn't be that bad except the massive amount of money involved. With debt involved it really only makes fiscal sense if you get big law or government.

If you can get a law degree with very little debt it can be a decent career.

If you can't get into a T13 you should probably go for free.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:15 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:have to disagree with OP on dentistry...if not only because he totally did not make a strong connection there

sorry OP, logic fail :( might need that for law school

high initial capital investment costs != unstable profession

The average doctor and the average dentist will both make much more money long term than the average lawyer.


okay...lol why did you quote me?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:16 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
BobCostas wrote:
tl;dr
Science is unstable
Optometry is unstable
Dentistry is unstable
Medicine is unstable
Is Law school that bad??


Engineering, dentistry and medicine are not unstable.

Law wouldn't be that bad except the massive amount of money involved. With debt involved it really only makes fiscal sense if you get big law or government.

If you can get a law degree with very little debt it can be a decent career.

If you can't get into a T13 you should probably go for free.


i think OP just confused lack of stability with his own reasons for not choosing x career path

tl;dr fail!

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JazzOne
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:53 pm

rad law wrote:
kwais wrote:I agree, most people around here seem to think that not going to law school will somehow yield a prosperous life in and of itself.


No

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:21 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
BobCostas wrote:
tl;dr
Science is unstable
Optometry is unstable
Dentistry is unstable
Medicine is unstable
Is Law school that bad??


Engineering, dentistry and medicine are not unstable.

Law wouldn't be that bad except the massive amount of money involved. With debt involved it really only makes fiscal sense if you get big law or government.

If you can get a law degree with very little debt it can be a decent career.

If you can't get into a T13 you should probably go for free.


i think OP just confused lack of stability with his own reasons for not choosing x career path

tl;dr fail!


Nope definitely didn't confuse these two things. I put a fairly significant amount of research into all of these careers and medicine, dentistry, optometry and science (specifically biology and chemistry) are not as wonderful as they seem. Their respective professional schools will preach high attrition rates, increased demand etc but in reality it's a similar situation. Medical, Dental and Optometry schools are being opened up at quite a rate as well, and the standards to get into those schools isn't much higher than it is for Law Schools. A 300 on the OAT, an 18 on the DAT, a 27 on the MCAT combined with a GPA above 3 can give you a pretty good shot, it just depends how much you're willing to spend. Hop over to student doctor forums and you'll see people talking about the professions with the same pessimism I see on TLS.

Some people have said they know tons of lawyers who aren't in a good position. Well I know tons of doctors, dentists, optometrists and biologists facing similar fates. In fact, the people who I know who are the best off are....lawyers! I will admit I don't know nearly as many of them, but 100% of the ones I do know are rich.

I'm just failing to see any concrete evidence that the law profession is in that bad of shape, or that it's significantly worse than the other professions I've mentioned. I am most definitely very concerned, but I'm also somewhat skeptical.

cornellbeez
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:23 pm

As others have mentioned, medicine isn't unstable. It just sounds like you don't want to put the work in to become a doctor.

Pharmacy, nursing, MD. I'd also argue EECS, possibly Chem E (not sure about the latter, other types of engineering are less employable).

You're much better off going to dental or med school than a "t30" law school.

Biology has never been a "stable" field. Post-graduation, biology majors made, on average, less than English and history majors from my undergrad. People typically major in bio just to get into med school because it's easier than the hard sciences like chem. A bio degree on its own is relatively useless except for 20k/year lab work that an undergrad could do.

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:28 pm

cornellbeez wrote:Medicine isn't unstable. It just sounds like you don't want to put the work in to become a doctor.

Pharmacy, nursing, MD. I'd say those are good bets.


Nursing? Are you deadly serious? Look I don't want to get into a flame war here but nursing is in far worse shape than law. I have no aversion to the work required to become a doctor, I have an aversion to all the work if it won't net me adequate payoff. Furthermore, as stated earlier I'm not genuinely interested in medicine/physiology, and to get to a point where medicine would take me to a field I was interested in it would take me another 7-10 years of school.

I don't know much about pharmacy, but I would suggest checking into their starting salaries more closely because they do not start at 6 figures. I think a more accurate figure would be around 50-60k per year for a starting pharmacy grad

cornellbeez
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:29 pm

BobCostas wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Medicine isn't unstable. It just sounds like you don't want to put the work in to become a doctor.

Pharmacy, nursing, MD. I'd say those are good bets.


Nursing? Are you deadly serious? Look I don't want to get into a flame war here but nursing is in far worse shape than law. I have no aversion to the work required to become a doctor, I have an aversion to all the work if it won't net me adequate payoff. Furthermore, as stated earlier I'm not genuinely interested in medicine/physiology, and to get to a point where medicine would take me to a field I was interested in it would take me another 7-10 years of school.

I don't know much about pharmacy, but I would suggest checking into their starting salaries more closely because they do not start at 6 figures. I think a more accurate figure would be around 50-60k per year for a starting pharmacy grad


RN

Two of my friends go to UCSF Pharm, pretty sure they're starting above 90k.

again, a bio degree has never been that employable. not sure what you expected to get from it if you didn't plan on getting a PhD or MD in the first place.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:33 pm

BobCostas wrote:
Nope definitely didn't confuse these two things. I put a fairly significant amount of research into all of these careers and medicine, dentistry, optometry and science (specifically biology and chemistry) are not as wonderful as they seem.


So, you mean you mean six figures and prestige aren't spoon fed to you at graduation, so therefore they aren't as wonderful as they seem? Uh, okay. Come hang out with some 2Ls and 3Ls and almost any law school in the country. See how they're doing. Then go do the same with some upperclassmen dental and med students.


BobCostas wrote:Some people have said they know tons of lawyers who aren't in a good position. Well I know tons of doctors, dentists, optometrists and biologists facing similar fates. In fact, the people who I know who are the best off are....lawyers! I will admit I don't know nearly as many of them, but 100% of the ones I do know are rich.

I'm just failing to see any concrete evidence that the law profession is in that bad of shape, or that it's significantly worse than the other professions I've mentioned. I am most definitely very concerned, but I'm also somewhat skeptical.


Being unemployed and six figures in debt or doing temporary doc review for $20 an hour with a degree from a T20 law school is on par with working in a mall for 40 hours a week and making enough money to make your student loan payments every month and feed your family of four? GTFO here if you really think that is even remotely comparable. Also, there are maybe 15,000-20,000 permanent legal jobs for 45,000 graduates. You're saying that dentists and doctors face the same market?

I don't mean this to be a jerk, but you just sound like you want to lazily walk your way into riches without any risk of adversity, financial hardship, or hard work.
Last edited by romothesavior on Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BobCostas
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby BobCostas » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:35 pm

I never expected to stop at the B.Sc level, hence why I haven't. I'm pretty sure I want to pursue law, but I want to make sure I'm fully aware of the risks and that I have realistic expectations before committing to it.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm

BobCostas wrote:Nursing? Are you deadly serious? Look I don't want to get into a flame war here but nursing is in far worse shape than law.

I am beginning to think you are a troll.

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JazzOne
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Re: The "Truth" About Law School

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm

I think law school is perfect for OP.

/thread




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