Borderline T14

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Law Sauce
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Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:27 pm

This data:
Image
seems to say that t1 is a bad financial decision, at least for nlj250, and still leave most with only around 10 thousand dollars less debt per year. (this may represent an average of a group that has much more and a group that has much less)



On top of that, for Biglaw:

--ImageRemoved--
It seems that even the top schools only are around 50% (even with people choosing other options like clerkship) and that as you go down the list the percentages are not drastically less (not sure if this would continue all the way down to Vandy or wustl of Illinois etc. or not)

check out http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202443758843&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 for the top 50 (courtesy of ahduth)


Also, here is some clerkship data

1st # -Percent employed in all judicial clerkships
2nd # - Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge

1 Yale University
New Haven, CT
35.1% 31.4%
2 Stanford University
Stanford, CA
23.0% 22.0%
3 Harvard University
Cambridge, MA
19.0% 15.5%
4 Duke University
Durham, NC
16.0% 13.0%
5 University of Chicago
Chicago, IL
13.0% 13.0%
6 University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA
16.5% 12.8%
7 University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA
13.6% 11.8%
8 Columbia University
New York, NY
11.0% 11.0%
9 Vanderbilt University
Nashville, TN
15.0% 10.6%
10 University of Georgia
Athens, GA
17.0% 10.4%
11 Northwestern University
Chicago, IL
12.0% 9.4%
12 Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA
20.0% 9.0%
13 University of Texas--Austin
Austin, TX
13.0% 9.0%
14 University of Michigan--Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor, MI
13.6% 9.0%
15 Emory University
Atlanta, GA
9.1% 9.0%
16 New York University
New York, NY
10.5% 8.5%
17 Washington University in St. Louis
St. Louis, MO
10.5% 8.2%

the whole list is at http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/article_iii_clerks

This time there is a bigger difference between t14s especially (YHS) and also a lot of variance between schools of all ranks. It seems this statistic need a lot of interpretation.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:43 am, edited 10 times in total.

123kl
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Re: Boarderline T14

Postby 123kl » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:32 pm

Be able to spell "borderline." Sorry, couldn't resist.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Boarderline T14

Postby dextermorgan » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:33 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Ok, so it seems that there is a clear concensus that if you can't get T14 you should shoot for a full ride at a regional school over sticker at a T30. It also seems clear that in choosing between T14s (outside of YHS), it often is wise to go with one that offered the most competitive package and thus the least debt. It seems less clear, however, for people with numbers to gain good scholarships at T20 and T30 regional schools and a T14 acceptance or two, what choice seems wiser. Just wanted to hear some opinions.

If by "what choice seems wiser" you mean "which would TLSers choose" then the T14. Always.

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bk1
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Re: Boarderline T14

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:33 pm

It depends on the scholarship you get from the strong regional. The problem is that even after a decent scholarship (i.e. 30k/year), many schools in the T30 still put you in 100k worth of debt because their total CoA is often in the 150-200k range. This is especially of the strong regional schools in major cities (GW, Fordham, etc) where people tend to want to work.

If you're sure you want to work in a specific area like a specific state (IA, NC, WI, etc) then taking the state school there for cheap is often a great idea, however not many applicants want to work in these places. They tend to want to work in DC/NYC/Chi/etc where a T14 is often a much better idea than the strong regional due to the cost of schools like GW, Fordham, etc.

This also doesn't take into account that certain schools are notoriously stingy with scholarship money (off the top of my head: Fordham, Hastings, etc) and if you want to work in that area, sometimes the strong regional school won't give you enough money no matter how good your numbers are because they just don't hand out much scholly money.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:52 pm

...
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:57 pm

T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Boarderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:02 pm

...
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:07 pm

bk1 wrote:T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.


but it will only force you into Biglaw, if you can get it, for the short term, correct? and then the greater job options will continue to be better? or do your options become reduced after you begin a career path such as biglaw?

also, do you mean more job options qualitatively or geographically. I mean could Illinois give you all the same possiblities as Michigan except more limited geographically, to Illinois and chicago perhaps, or do Illinois grads have more of a ceiling on possible jobs? Same with Vandy?

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JordynAsh
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Re: Boarderline T14

Postby JordynAsh » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:08 pm

123kl wrote:Be able to spell "borderline." Sorry, couldn't resist.


Also, "consensus".

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bk1
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:45 am

Law Sauce wrote:but it will only force you into Biglaw, if you can get it, for the short term, correct? and then the greater job options will continue to be better? or do your options become reduced after you begin a career path such as biglaw?

also, do you mean more job options qualitatively or geographically. I mean could Illinois give you all the same possiblities as Michigan except more limited geographically, to Illinois and chicago perhaps, or do Illinois grads have more of a ceiling on possible jobs? Same with Vandy?


Yes, but do most people even really want to do a single 2000-3000 billable year, let alone 3-5+? Biglaw is a boon to your career path, but the opposite side is that biglaw out of a T14 is not even close to guaranteed and getting something that isn't biglaw and doesn't qualify for LRAP is a pretty shitty situation to be in when you have 6 figures worth of debt.

For the Illinois versus Michigan example, Michigan has more geographic reach, higher possible options, and better chances of getting the options that Illinois shares with it.

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romothesavior
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:19 am

Thought this thread was about Georgetown. Carry on.

acirilli1722
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby acirilli1722 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:28 am

It probably depends on what kind of law you want to practice, if Big Law probably T 14. But if you aren't only looking for a big time job and have a specific region you prefer to work then a scholarship at a top 30 school in that region may be smarter. Also consider scholarship stipulations because if you can't keep your scholarship then that advantage no longer exists, however from what I hear top 30 schools are usually relatively fair with their stipulations, it is usually the lower ranked schools that have some shady conditions in order to keep your scholarship.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:34 am

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:


Yes, but do most people even really want to do a single 2000-3000 billable year, let alone 3-5+? Biglaw is a boon to your career path, but the opposite side is that biglaw out of a T14 is not even close to guaranteed and getting something that isn't biglaw and doesn't qualify for LRAP is a pretty shitty situation to be in when you have 6 figures worth of debt.

For the Illinois versus Michigan example, Michigan has more geographic reach, higher possible options, and better chances of getting the options that Illinois shares with it.


LRAP is a good point too. Is it worth passing up scholarships for a better school with better career prospects plus a good LRAP to fall back on? I imagine taking the LRAP route for 10 years would really hurt your future career options tho.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:38 am

acirilli1722 wrote:It probably depends on what kind of law you want to practice, if Big Law probably T 14. But if you aren't only looking for a big time job and have a specific region you prefer to work then a scholarship at a top 30 school in that region may be smarter. Also consider scholarship stipulations because if you can't keep your scholarship then that advantage no longer exists, however from what I hear top 30 schools are usually relatively fair with their stipulations, it is usually the lower ranked schools that have some shady conditions in order to keep your scholarship.


there seems to be reasonable scholarship stipulations at many t30s
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby ahduth » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:28 am

I've seen the second chart before, can you give a link? Is it NLJ?

edit: I just learned how to use the internets: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:58 am

ahduth wrote:I've seen the second chart before, can you give a link? Is it NLJ?

edit: I just learned how to use the internets: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


yea, great thanks ahduth that is much better than the one I posted because it goes further down the rankings.

Interesting that Vandy is at 47.1 (t14ish level), whereas wustl is at 27.5 and illinois is at 26.7. Thats a monster difference. Small class size seems to help Vandy. I wonder if large scholarships vs ppl who get in and pay sticker at wustl and illinois accounts some of the difference, since they both throw around a lot of money to some who conceivable may do better than others at the same school. Maybe not though.

The t14 seems to be all similar at around 50% except maybe CG which looses to Vandy and is closer to 40%. Interesting...

bdubs
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby bdubs » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:Thought this thread was about Georgetown. Carry on.


This made me lol.

Also, OP what are your goals? If you value flexibility (i.e. not sure that biglaw is the ultimate objective) go regional full ride, if you are dead set on ladder climbing and prestige then go to a T14. In the middle? Make up your mind.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:24 pm

bk1 wrote:T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.

I don't know if I agree with this. From what I've learned, there are some firms that treat you quite nicely while you put in your 80 hours per week.

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romothesavior
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:27 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
bk1 wrote:T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.

I don't know if I agree with this. From what I've learned, there are some firms that treat you quite nicely while you put in your 80 hours per week.

Based on my very meager research and understanding, I think this is true. It is probably even more true in secondary markets. There is a firm in STL that hires 1Ls, hoping to bring them back as 2Ls, hoping to bring them back as associates, and hoping to make them partner. Their goal is 100% retention to partnership and they really strive for it. Hard to attain it if everyone is an asshole and your firm lifestyle sucks. I'm sure other firms are the same.

OP, you've given us a lot of information about T14s and the job market (which we already know), but we don't have a whole lot of info on you to help you and give you advice. It sounds like you're interested in DC, right? Did you apply to GW? And do you have any ties to the midwest that would justify you coming to UIUC or WUSTL?

Personally, I couldn't stomach sticker for the lower T14 (got in to CG and turned them down). Just too risky ITE and they place primarily into markets I don't care for. But it is really a personal decision as to whether those are worth it.
Last edited by romothesavior on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:31 pm

romothesavior wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
bk1 wrote:T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.

I don't know if I agree with this. From what I've learned, there are some firms that treat you quite nicely while you put in your 80 hours per week.

Based on my very meager research and understanding, I think this is true. It is probably even more true in secondary markets. There is a firm in STL that hires 1Ls, hoping to bring them back as 2Ls, hoping to bring them back as associates, and hoping to make them partner. Their goal is 0% attrition and they really strive for it. Hard to attain it if everyone is an asshole and your firm lifestyle sucks. I'm sure other firms are the same.

OP, you've given us a lot of information about T14s and the job market (which we already know), but we don't have a whole lot of info on you to help you and give you advice.

FTFY

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romothesavior
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:32 pm

AreJay711 wrote:FTFY

Haha thanks, I should have proof read before I hit submit.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby Law Sauce » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:OP, you've given us a lot of information about T14s and the job market (which we already know), but we don't have a whole lot of info on you to help you and give you advice. It sounds like you're interested in DC, right? Did you apply to GW? And do you have any ties to the midwest that would justify you coming to UIUC or WUSTL?

Personally, I couldn't stomach sticker for the lower T14 (got in to CG and turned them down). Just too risky ITE and they place primarily into markets I don't care for. But it is really a personal decision as to whether those are worth it.


yea, i know most ppl are aware of all those statistics I just wanted to compile them.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Borderline T14

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:10 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
bk1 wrote:T14 is going to give you more options for jobs.

However, T14 at sticker is going to basically force you into biglaw (to repay the debt) and there is no such thing as a QoL biglaw firm.

I don't know if I agree with this. From what I've learned, there are some firms that treat you quite nicely while you put in your 80 hours per week.


I agree with you. But I still think that putting 80 hours is rough. I guess I took "QoL firm" to mean something with more traditional hours that was still biglaw.

This is an entirely fair point considering if you're putting in the time, it would be better at a firm that didn't make you want to come to work with an automatic weapon one day and mow down your coworkers. :P




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