Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

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98234872348
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Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:11 pm

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _climbers/

For hiring managers, Rivera says, the prestige of your school is an indicator of underlying intelligence. Schools that have a higher bar for admissions have a smarter student body, the thinking goes. Said one lawyer, “I’m looking for sponges.You know a kid from Harvard’s gonna pick stuff up fast.”

Hiring managers interviewed often believed, in the words of one Hispanic lawyer, that students typically “go to the best school they got into.” A student who chooses a lesser-known school is perceived to lack judgment or foresight. Even students who balk at pricier schools “should be smart enough to invest in their future,” observed one lawyer.

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akili
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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby akili » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:15 pm

It's certainly a tough trade-off.

With a higher LSAT score, I can/could get in to lower ranked schools that are still very respectable, with $$$
With my previous score, if I wanted a chance I pretty much just had to go to the best school I got in to (at least I felt that way) because the schools I got money at were absolutely not worth it.

It's a personal choice, of course but that's what I think.

dakatz
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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby dakatz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:19 pm

Lol are hiring partners really that disconnected from the realities of the debt and economic situation that students face today? Must be nice to be so insulated from the real world

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Kswizzie
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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Kswizzie » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:21 pm

Whats with all these new LS articles lately?

Curry

Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Curry » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:21 pm

I met with a hiring partner yesterday. His advice was MVP with $$ over Sticker at CCN.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby dakatz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:23 pm

Curry wrote:I met with a hiring partner yesterday. His advice was MVP with $$ over Sticker at CCN.


I think the hiring partners were probably referring more to people who elect to go to a TTT for free compared to some highly reputable top tier school at sticker, not to Student who choose a lower T14 over a higher ranked one. And the lawyers I met echo the same thing that you mention. They said they used to advise students to just go to the best school but now stress a bit more balance because of the way that tuition and debt have gotten out of hand

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Kswizzie
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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Kswizzie » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:26 pm

I wonder what he would have said to HYS vs CCN or MVP the article implied that HYS is seen as the holy grail.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:26 pm

dakatz wrote:Lol are hiring partners really that disconnected from the realities of the debt and economic situation that students face today? Must be nice to be so insulated from the real world

It does seem sort of baffling... I guess they anticipate that the students they are looking to hire have nothing to worry about. It's unfortunate that the same students don't know who they are until after OCI.

Curry wrote:I met with a hiring partner yesterday. His advice was MVP with $$ over Sticker at CCN.

That's interesting. Did he happen to have graduated from one of the former, rather than the latter schools?

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:27 pm

Curry wrote:I met with a hiring partner yesterday. His advice was MVP with $$ over Sticker at CCN.


Prestige difference isn't that huge in that case. .

thechee
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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby thechee » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:35 pm

What would people say is the dollar amount/% of tuition that separates $/$$/$$$? Is 45K at MVP $ or $$?

Obviously it's a matter of perception, and there are no rigid cutoffs.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:36 pm

Kswizzie wrote:I wonder what he would have said to HYS vs CCN or MVP the article implied that HYS is seen as the holy grail.


That is absolute and unquestionable truth. Outside of TLS the only distinction among top schools that you will hear from anyone involved in law is Yale, Harvard and Stanford. CCN, MVP, etc. doesnt exist outside of the internet.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Bumi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:58 pm

First of all, I find it interesting that people are saying that this article proves that CCN and MVP are indistinguishable, when the article includes this:
The super-elite, for law firms, consisted of these law schools: Yale, Harvard, Stanford and, to a lesser extent, Columbia.


So the article would support the conclusion that YHS > C > * at elite firms. Whether you should take money to go to MVP over Chicago or NYU isn't really within the scope of this article, from what I can tell.

Also, keep in mind that this article, and the underlying scholarship, is based on interviews with elite firms only. There may be a difference between the Chicago/NYU tier and the MVP tier for other types of legal employment that aren't at the very pinnacle of Biglaw. There are a finite number of YHSC grads (though I get the sense that Harvard thinks it can overcome this limitation). Not everyone in the V100 can afford to only hire YHS.

What I find even more interesting than the law school prestige conversation is how extracurriculars show up.

Interviewers from all three types of institutions studied weren’t satisfied with run-of-the-mill outside activities. Interviewers, Rivera wrote, “differentiated being a varsity college athlete, preferably one that was also a national or Olympic champion, versus playing intramurals; having traveled the globe with a world-renowned orchestra as opposed to playing with a school chamber group; and having reached the summit of Everest or Kilimanjaro versus recreational hiking. The former activities were evidence of ‘true accomplishment’ and dedication, whereas the latter were described as things that ‘anyone could do.’ ”


I'd be very surprised if this mentality was any different among admissions committees. But it's a bit harder for someone from a less privileged socioeconomic background to become an Olympic athlete or to climb Everest, even given the same drive to succeed and ability level.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Ship87 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:03 pm

I come from a small state school and I'm currently applying to almost all of the T14. This article and the abstract for the paper cited brings to the forefront a depressing truth about mobility in America. I attended the college I did because I wouldn't have to pay tuition, but I think I made the wrong choice over the long term, and that prestige is worth the debt you accumulate. Hopefully I can graduate from a good law school with good grades and attain a decent job, but it does feel like the game is rigged against you. Sadly, I didn't have the money to go to build huts in Latin America over the summer.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Sinra » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:10 pm

Ship87 wrote:I come from a small state school and I'm currently applying to almost all of the T14. This article and the abstract for the paper cited brings to the forefront a depressing truth about mobility in America. I attended the college I did because I wouldn't have to pay tuition, but I think I made the wrong choice over the long term, and that prestige is worth the debt you accumulate. Hopefully I can graduate from a good law school with good grades and attain a decent job, but it does feel like the game is rigged against you. Sadly, I didn't have the money to go to build huts in Latin America over the summer.


+1. Same. My undergrad is crap. I am actually surprised they were that open about it (I guess anonymity will do that). The idea that only YHS and P count towards getting an elite job is just :cry: . TBF, the article wasn't limited to law firms but also financial and consulting firms. Ugh. The game is rigged against you. As I get older I realize that the extent is unimaginable. Those hiring managers sound like douchbags. It's the people that come from families that have been rich for generations that can afford to climb Mt. Kiliminjaro.

There is almost zero chance of social mobility in America.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Snape » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:15 pm

Very interesting article but also very true....I know there are firms and companies that won't even accept a resume unless you go to one of a chosen list of schools (never just the "t-14" but of course they are all always on the list). Also, much of the debate between MVP and CCN is completley created on this site. I didn't see much about this regionally but I'm sure the desire for prestige also changes a bit regionally...for example, in LA im sure they still love HYS...but then they may want Boalt, UCLA, over Duke or UVA....Chicago firms may prefer Northwestern grads over NYU...etc,

In the end, and especially in a bad economy, the people hiring are just like many of us--they take their jobs seriously but also don't want to have to spend more time than they need to to fill the position. Simply having a core list of schools is a simple way for them to get the job done and get good associates to fit their needs. Therefore, its easier for a firm to just grab a random MVPND graduate rather than go through all the time to find that great kid who could have gone to a better school but wanted to take the scholarship at a 25-40 school. Makes sense to me.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Ship87 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Snape wrote:In the end, and especially in a bad economy, the people hiring are just like many of us--they take their jobs seriously but also don't want to have to spend more time than they need to to fill the position. Simply having a core list of schools is a simple way for them to get the job done and get good associates to fit their needs. Therefore, its easier for a firm to just grab a random MVPND graduate rather than go through all the time to find that great kid who could have gone to a better school but wanted to take the scholarship at a 25-40 school. Makes sense to me.


I think there is more at work than simply trying to save time. I think a large part of it is that the partners at the firms themselves went through the application process, and a large part of their identity is likely tied to the selectivity/prestige of their undergrad/law institutions, so they solidify and affirm their sense of self by also selecting people from elite institutions. Especially when it comes to undergrad where we all know the variability within schools is bigger than the variability between schools.

Someone will write a good novel about this one day in which the idyllic young life is filled with resume building activities.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby ggocat » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:26 pm

dakatz wrote:Lol are hiring partners really that disconnected from the realities of the debt and economic situation that students face today? Must be nice to be so insulated from the real world

Perhaps, but we should remember that hiring partners would prefer to hire someone with a lot of debt. Someone with a lot of debt is much more dependent on the firm--less likely to quit or move to a lower-paying firm for better quality of life.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby ggocat » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:31 pm

Also, Bill Henderson (quoted in the NYT article), suggests students should do the exact opposite when choosing among non-elite schools. "Go to the best school you get into" is poor advice for the vast majority of law school applicants. He co-authored a journal article that led to this shorter feature article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Snape » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:32 pm

Ship87 wrote:
Snape wrote:In the end, and especially in a bad economy, the people hiring are just like many of us--they take their jobs seriously but also don't want to have to spend more time than they need to to fill the position. Simply having a core list of schools is a simple way for them to get the job done and get good associates to fit their needs. Therefore, its easier for a firm to just grab a random MVPND graduate rather than go through all the time to find that great kid who could have gone to a better school but wanted to take the scholarship at a 25-40 school. Makes sense to me.


I think there is more at work than simply trying to save time. I think a large part of it is that the partners at the firms themselves went through the application process, and a large part of their identity is likely tied to the selectivity/prestige of their undergrad/law institutions, so they solidify and affirm their sense of self by also selecting people from elite institutions. Especially when it comes to undergrad where we all know the variability within schools is bigger than the variability between schools.

Someone will write a good novel about this one day in which the idyllic young life is filled with resume building activities.



Sounds a bit like someone who didnt do there homework before undergrad...ie...will this degree be worth anything and can I get decent job? It sucks---I would love to have had easier classes and less debt--but the reality of it is this is a world of connections and fitting into what other people think is right or best....if you want to change it go to law school and change the stystem....of course, first, you must learn how to succeed in the system as it is...

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:39 pm

Snape wrote:Sounds a bit like someone who didnt do there homework before undergrad...ie...will this degree be worth anything and can I get decent job? It sucks---I would love to have had easier classes and less debt--but the reality of it is this is a world of connections and fitting into what other people think is right or best....if you want to change it go to law school and change the stystem....of course, first, you must learn how to succeed in the system as it is...


Actually, for undergrad I would argue that this effect is nowhere near as large. It basically mainly applies to consulting and banking and even at the Ivy level it is super competitive. Plus, to make the real big money you need to get an elite grad degree anyway. The effect is bigger at the graduate level because you are focusing on basically one distinct field (law, business, medicine, etc.) while at the undergrad level there is a far greater range and far more opportunities.

Yeah, a business major from a standard state school isnt going to get Bain and Co. but 95% of them probably dont even know what Bain and Co. is anyway.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby Bumi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:51 pm

ggocat wrote:Also, Bill Henderson (quoted in the NYT article), suggests students should do the exact opposite when choosing among non-elite schools. "Go to the best school you get into" is poor advice for the vast majority of law school applicants. He co-authored a journal article that led to this shorter feature article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options.


What you're talking about and what the article this thread is about are two completely different, non-overlapping things.

The statement "There are doors that are open to Harvard grads who were Olympic athletes that aren't open to Virginia grads, regardless of grades" doesn't in any way contradict the statement "Paying significantly more for Ohio State over Case Western is probably a waste of money."

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby ggocat » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Bumi wrote:
ggocat wrote:Also, Bill Henderson (quoted in the NYT article), suggests students should do the exact opposite when choosing among non-elite schools. "Go to the best school you get into" is poor advice for the vast majority of law school applicants. He co-authored a journal article that led to this shorter feature article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options.


What you're talking about and what the article this thread is about are two completely different, non-overlapping things.

The statement "There are doors that are open to Harvard grads who were Olympic athletes that aren't open to Virginia grads, regardless of grades" doesn't in any way contradict the statement "Paying significantly more for Ohio State over Case Western is probably a waste of money."

Was responding to quote in the OP, not the two paragraphs of the article that talk about extracirricular activities.

But I agree the article is talking about choosing an elite school versus a "lower-tier" school (not necessarily Harvard versus Virginia), which is completely different from Henderson's article about choosing among lower-tier schools.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby LurkerNoMore » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:09 am

dakatz wrote:Lol are hiring partners really that disconnected from the realities of the debt and economic situation that students face today? Must be nice to be so insulated from the real world



No they aren't disconnected from realities. Their reality is that they have more than enough qualified applicants from top schools. They don't need to go through the entire stack of applications to sort out promising candidates. They can count on top schools to have made the first cut and go from there. This doesn't mean that they don't realize that there are people who took scholarships over prestige, or that they think all candidates from school A are better than the ones from school Z. It is just much more work for them to go through every resume with a fine tooth comb with little to no pay off for them at the end.

If you get a named scholarship from a school, be sure to list it on your resume. The best chance to get plucked out of the pile of resumes that otherwise wouldn't make the "check the box" cut is to get top grades and have a named scholarship -- it's sort of code for "I got into other schools."

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby LurkerNoMore » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:20 am

ggocat wrote:Also, Bill Henderson (quoted in the NYT article), suggests students should do the exact opposite when choosing among non-elite schools. "Go to the best school you get into" is poor advice for the vast majority of law school applicants. He co-authored a journal article that led to this shorter feature article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options.


As has been mentioned -- this is two separate things.

"Go to the best school you get into" for non-elite school choices is about going off the USNWR ranking. He is correct that slavishly following makes no sense once you aren't comparing a "top" school to a regional/local school.

Going to a "prestigious school" in the profession means something different than the endless slicing and dicing of USNWR around here. There are not multiple tiers. There is usually a group of "go to" firms, which include the "top" schools (not strictly following the T14 or whatever, but in that general range) and some local/regional schools that have developed a positive reputation with that employer. Then there is everyone else.

The first article is about choosing between "top" schools and the "everyone else" schools. It's not about choosing within top schools (it doesn't mean that you should give up Michigan with money for Columbia at sticker). The other quote is about choosing within the "everyone else" schools.

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Re: Interesting Article on Choosing Prestige over $$$

Postby ahduth » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:54 am

Ship87 wrote:I come from a small state school and I'm currently applying to almost all of the T14. This article and the abstract for the paper cited brings to the forefront a depressing truth about mobility in America. I attended the college I did because I wouldn't have to pay tuition, but I think I made the wrong choice over the long term, and that prestige is worth the debt you accumulate. Hopefully I can graduate from a good law school with good grades and attain a decent job, but it does feel like the game is rigged against you. Sadly, I didn't have the money to go to build huts in Latin America over the summer.


Yeah, debt you can pay off. That degree/prestige thing is permanent.




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