In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

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dcgbm
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In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby dcgbm » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:24 am

Other than the ranking? Why do they generally get a class all of their own between YHS and the cluster of BMVPDN when being spoke of here on TLS?

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Kabuo
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Kabuo » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:01 am

Employment prospects.

Snape
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Snape » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:37 pm

False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.

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Sentry
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Sentry » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:54 pm

Placement and medians.

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AreJay711
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:00 pm

Placement at the top firms. There isn't really much difference in overall biglaw placement but there is at the most prestigious firms.
Last edited by AreJay711 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sentry
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Sentry » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:06 pm

Snape wrote:False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.

BMVPDN are all peers. All 3 of CCN will consistently be in the top 5 for placement while BMVPDN will be scattered anywhere throughout the top 12.

Renzo
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Renzo » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:18 pm

Snape wrote:False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.

This is true. Every two weeks, there's a meeting of CLS and NYU kids. We call it the Smug Club, and we just laugh at NU. We actually use it as a selling point when prospective students come for admitted student visits.

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gbpackerbacker
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby gbpackerbacker » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:30 pm

Tagged.

bdubs
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby bdubs » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:24 pm

It's a prestige thing. That is why people on here generally put MVP(B) in a separate category from DN. Go to the Cravath website and do a search by school for associates, you will be able to see the groupings by the # of associates relative to the school's size.

Even better is to go to Wachtell and do it by year, but their Associate cohorts are pretty small these days.

tlslsnlsp
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby tlslsnlsp » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:39 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Placement at the top firms. There isn't really much difference in overall biglaw placement but there is at the most prestigious firms.


anyone else agree?

the more i see these stats on NJL 250 or V100 + clerkships and see that BMVPDN is scattered with CCN fairly evenly, i start to think the only reason CCN gets a class on its own on TLS is because they are in chicago and new york, period. as in, it's really HYS / the rest / CG.

but if arejay711 is right that pretty much justifies the separate classification.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby TaipeiMort » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:52 pm

Snape wrote:False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.


This is misleading. I can't speak for Columbia and NYU, but Chicago year in and year out places a very good percentage into clerkships and likely also have a higher percentage of kids who want to go into PI, academia, and government than Northwestern.

Therefore, you can't really compare northwestern to CCN. If instead you looked at the % of kids who want biglaw that get it at Chicago, Northwestern loses.

Nevertheless, NU dominates other non T6 schools in biglaw placement.

To answer OPs question, in addition to Median and even below median kids getting biglaw, CCN allows you better chances into academia, Pi, government positions, and clerkships. Also, CCN opens up Ibanking and Management Consulting to you.
Last edited by TaipeiMort on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CG614
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby CG614 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:58 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:
Snape wrote:False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.


This is misleading. I can't speak for Columbia and NYU, but Chicago year in and year out places a very good percentage into clerkships and likely also have a higher percentage of kids who want to go into PI, academia, and government than Northwestern.

Therefore, you can't really compare northwestern to CCN. If instead you looked at the % of kids who want biglaw that get it at Chicago, Northwestern looses.

Nevertheless, NU dominates other non T6 schools in biglaw placement.

To answer OPs question, in addition to Median and even below median kids getting biglaw, CCN allows you better chances into academia, Pi, government positions, and clerkships. Also, CCN opens up Ibanking and Management Consulting to you.

Also, correlation does not equal causation. NU places well because they emphasize work experience in selecting their students. BigLaw firms like previous work experience. Do the math. Going to NU does not automatically equal better options. Going to NU with some good work experience likely does, but that could probably be said for any of the T14.

EDIT: I do not mean this in a smug way, just pointing out how the data is possibly being interpreted incorrectly.

tlslsnlsp
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby tlslsnlsp » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:06 pm

TaipeiMort wrote: in addition to Median and even below median kids getting biglaw, CCN allows you better chances into academia, Pi, government positions, and clerkships. Also, CCN opens up Ibanking and Management Consulting to you.


so no challengers of this? this answers my question pretty clearly.

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AreJay711
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:08 pm

tlslsnlsp wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote: in addition to Median and even below median kids getting biglaw, CCN allows you better chances into academia, Pi, government positions, and clerkships. Also, CCN opens up Ibanking and Management Consulting to you.


so no challengers of this? this answers my question pretty clearly.

Academia? No. Maybe for the others, idk. The real difference is employment prospects at the most prestigious firms though.

cornellbeez
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby cornellbeez » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:19 pm

tlslsnlsp wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote: in addition to Median and even below median kids getting biglaw, CCN allows you better chances into academia, Pi, government positions, and clerkships. Also, CCN opens up Ibanking and Management Consulting to you.


so no challengers of this? this answers my question pretty clearly.


Higher percentage of people getting biglaw: Yes.
Academia: No. (Look at recent stats.)
PI: No. Overriding factors for PI include work/PI experience.
Government positions: No. (You apply for gov positions primarily post big-law, which is when work experience matters far more than your alma mater.)
Clerkships: No. (Look at recent stats).
Ibanking and management: No. I attend MVP and got through McKinsey rounds before withdrawing. My understanding is that the top consulting firms care more about SAT math scores/undergrad work/analytical skills. They may recruit more actively at Columbia and NYU, but it doesn't mean they will be more likely to accept your initial application just because you attend the school. They care about various factors, including the SAT score, undergrad school and major, undergrad performance, LSAT score, and they ask for law school GPA. Some of these may be confounding variables that lead you to draw the incorrect conclusion that CN offer a leg-up. After your application is "accepted" for round one interviews, your success depends entirely on your performance on objective tests and case studies.

$$$$$$
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby $$$$$$ » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:24 pm

if you can get a banking job from nyu law, then you can get one from penn law. id say getting consulting, banking and management jobs has more to do with the person than the school.

Also, NYU and Columbia are in NYC, so naturally they rise too the top comparatively with top flight NYC big law. But if you want Top flight DC biglaw, then you see major differences:

W&C: Columbia = 9 ; NYU = 1; Chi = 17; P=12; M=8 ;V=28
Covington: Columbia = 1 ; NYU = 24; Chi =10; P=14; M=19 ;V=31

Just two examples, but pretty compelling that two of the best firms in the world, WC's only office and Covington's main office, choose Penn, VIrginia and Michigan grads as much if not more so than CCN grads. Just saying, make of the stats what you'd like for all these schools, but i think location is more important when talking about CCNMVP than actual reputation in the legal world.

tlslsnlsp
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby tlslsnlsp » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:50 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:if you can get a banking job from nyu law, then you can get one from penn law. id say getting consulting, banking and management jobs has more to do with the person than the school.

Also, NYU and Columbia are in NYC, so naturally they rise too the top comparatively with top flight NYC big law. But if you want Top flight DC biglaw, then you see major differences:

W&C: Columbia = 9 ; NYU = 1; Chi = 17; P=12; M=8 ;V=28
Covington: Columbia = 1 ; NYU = 24; Chi =10; P=14; M=19 ;V=31

Just two examples, but pretty compelling that two of the best firms in the world, WC's only office and Covington's main office, choose Penn, VIrginia and Michigan grads as much if not more so than CCN grads. Just saying, make of the stats what you'd like for all these schools, but i think location is more important when talking about CCNMVP than actual reputation in the legal world.


so if depending on the location sometimes CCN wins, sometimes BMVPDN wins, wouldn't it be more fair to group them all together?

it's my understanding that the same can't be said of HYS; regardless of the location (assuming similar class rank of everyone) HYS wins out vs. CCN or BMVPDN. To me, this justifies grouping HYS as a separate class than the others.

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Veyron
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:53 pm

Sentry wrote:
Snape wrote:False! Employment prospects has nothing to do with it....if it did then Northwestern would clearly be in the same group--they place better in Biglaw almost every year (recently). It is essentially a place for people who didnt get HYS to feel elite or more worthy than other people.

BMVPDN are all peers. All 3 of CCN will consistently be in the top 5 for placement while BMVPDN will be scattered anywhere throughout the top 12.


If you think about it, this is mathematically impossible (unless stanford sucks)

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UnitarySpace
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Re: In what ways is CCN better than BMVPDN?

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:02 am

what did NU's OCI numbers look like? what did CLS/NYUs OCI numbers look like?

Edit:

cornellbeez's post seems to make sense.




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