Why do people hate on Berkeley?

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emhellmer
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby emhellmer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Curry wrote:True true, yes yes. Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board>1.5 year old empirical data.

OP, as Berkeley has not had any recent graduates featured in the NY Times because they were making a mere $30/hr ($60,000/yr) as a legal temp, Berkeley is hereby superior to Columbia.


Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board with hundreds of responses regarding the matter > 1.5 year old outdated evidence that doesn't take into account the largest recession in recent history.[/quote]

Hey, what part of "true true, yes yes" offended you? I was only restating your argument...did my paraphrase seem insincere?

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:35 pm

bk1 wrote:
Sinra wrote: :roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.

:roll: The point is, how would you decide which school to go on if career prospects were most important to you?


Regional preference followed by where your interests lie career-wise. In any case, OP asked why Berkeley is hated on so much. Career placement being worse than other schools in its range is not significant according to empirical evidence (granted somewhat old) and we can find evidence in the employment forum of CCN students that struck out at OCI as well.
Last edited by Sinra on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:37 pm

emhellmer wrote:
Curry wrote:
emhellmer wrote:True true, yes yes. Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board>1.5 year old empirical data.

OP, as Berkeley has not had any recent graduates featured in the NY Times because they were making a mere $30/hr ($60,000/yr) as a legal temp, Berkeley is hereby superior to Columbia.


Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board with hundreds of responses regarding the matter > 1.5 year old outdated evidence that doesn't take into account the largest recession in recent history.


Hey, what part of "true true, yes yes" offended you? I was only restating your argument...did my paraphrase seem insincere?


Oh sorry. I thought you were beign sarcastic.

Casey2889
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Casey2889 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:45 pm

to what extent can lower BigLaw placement %'s from Berkeley be attributed to selection bias?

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Casey2889 wrote:to what extent can lower BigLaw placement %'s from Berkeley be attributed to selection bias?


This is for some reason always tuned out when Berkeley comes up. The school prides itself on being public-interest oriented and you'll find numerous threads on TLS (read some of the Boalties taking Qs threads on here and how many chose Berkeley over CCN with $ to attend) to that effect (anecdotal!). It's the same way that Harvard ranks lower than MVPB on that same NLJ250 chart. They self-select out. Shockingly, there are people that choose not to do biglaw and choose not to be in the Northeast. So again, OP--it depends on where and WHAT you want to do with your JD.

ImpatientlyWaiting
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby ImpatientlyWaiting » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:54 pm

Sinra wrote:
Casey2889 wrote:to what extent can lower BigLaw placement %'s from Berkeley be attributed to selection bias?


This is for some reason always tuned out when Berkeley comes up. The school prides itself on being public-interest oriented and you'll find numerous threads on TLS (read some of the Boalties taking Qs threads on here and how many chose Berkeley over CCN with $ to attend) to that effect (anecdotal!). It's the same way that Harvard ranks lower than MVPB on that same NLJ250 chart. They self-select out. Shockingly, there are people that choose not to do biglaw and choose not to be in the Northeast. So again, OP--it depends on where and WHAT you want to do with your JD.



+1

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Drake014
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Drake014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:58 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
Sinra wrote:You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


What else do we have to work with? Not to mention, the decline in biglaw placement makes a lot of sense given Boalt's location. Also, it seems that CDO's statistic was confirmed by various posters.


I got a biglaw placement and I go to Boalt. My anecdotal evidence trumps your second hand anecdotal evidence.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:18 am

Drake014 wrote: I got a biglaw placement and I go to Boalt. My anecdotal evidence trumps your second hand anecdotal evidence.


The 30% statistic for the Class of 2011 is what your CDO provided and it was posted and verified on TLS by various, credible Boalt posters.

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Drake014
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Drake014 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:28 am

cornellbeez wrote:
Drake014 wrote: I got a biglaw placement and I go to Boalt. My anecdotal evidence trumps your second hand anecdotal evidence.


The 30% statistic for the Class of 2011 is what your CDO provided and it was posted and verified on TLS by various, credible Boalt posters.


Links to the 30% statistic or it didn't happen.

Edit: I actually might believe that Berkeley placed lower in Biglaw. I know several people who didn't go for Biglaw jobs. I have a feeling that people at Berkeley self select away from Biglaw more than other schools.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:32 am

Drake014 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:
Drake014 wrote: I got a biglaw placement and I go to Boalt. My anecdotal evidence trumps your second hand anecdotal evidence.


The 30% statistic for the Class of 2011 is what your CDO provided and it was posted and verified on TLS by various, credible Boalt posters.


Links to the 30% statistic or it didn't happen.

Edit: I actually might believe that Berkeley placed lower in Biglaw. I know several people who didn't go for Biglaw jobs. I have a feeling that people at Berkeley self select away from Biglaw more than other schools.


This is the thread. It was started by a Boaltie who said that CDO told them to opt out of OCIP.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=121418

They probably do, but I think Boalt historically places a similar percentage into government and PI as some of its peer schools. (Too lazy to find the link, but it's somewhere on TLS.) Historically, I think it's something like 10-15% of the class goes into gov and PI. Not sure the minute differences between, say, 13% for its peers and 15% at Boalt really substantiates the self-selection argument. I'll try to find the data later, but I recall thinking that the difference was insignificant.

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Drake014
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Drake014 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:36 am

cornellbeez wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:
Drake014 wrote: I got a biglaw placement and I go to Boalt. My anecdotal evidence trumps your second hand anecdotal evidence.


The 30% statistic for the Class of 2011 is what your CDO provided and it was posted and verified on TLS by various, credible Boalt posters.


Links to the 30% statistic or it didn't happen.

Edit: I actually might believe that Berkeley placed lower in Biglaw. I know several people who didn't go for Biglaw jobs. I have a feeling that people at Berkeley self select away from Biglaw more than other schools.


This is the thread. It was started by a Boaltie who said that CDO told them to opt out of OCIP.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=121418

They probably do, but I think Boalt historically places a similar percentage into government and PI as some of its peer schools. (Too lazy to find the link, but it's somewhere on TLS.) Historically, I think it's something like 10-15% of the class goes into gov and PI. Not sure the minute differences between, say, 13% for its peers and 15% at Boalt really substantiates the self-selection argument. I'll try to find the data later, but I recall thinking that the difference was insignificant.


Browsed the thread, Boalties said what I thought. A lot of Boalties don't do OCI because they're not going for firms.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:51 am

The same reasons people randomly hate on other T14 schools: applicants need something to argue about. The truth is that among the lower half the T10, and some would argue the T14 as a whole, the differences are so minute that they are mostly inconsequential. I'm sure I could do the same work coming out of Michigan, Virginia, or Penn that I'll be doing after Berkeley. Small differences in placement or #s of grads going into certain firms or PI isn't really something to base your whole decision on.
What does matter is personal preference. I'm sure I'd get the same education at the other schools I just mentioned. However, it was my belief that I would enjoy my time at Berkeley more than the other schools and it was just a better fit for me. Given that I'm happy here, I was probably correct. I'm sure you'll find other T10 students who picked their schools for the same reason. That's the kind of stuff that should make your decision, not agonizing over decimal points on a chart.

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ahduth
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby ahduth » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:03 am

cornellbeez wrote: According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs. In contrast, according to the legal employment forum, its peers have placed 40-60% into biglaw. If you want hard data, ATL published an article stating that Cornell's Class of 2011, in particular, placed 40% into biglaw.


Can someone find this? I couldn't, but I'm pretty bad at the internets.

The analysis sounds dumb the way you describe it here, but if you guys are claiming it as evidence, we might as well look at it. As far as Cornell goes, I'm presuming they have significantly more people gunning for NYC big law. What other reason could you possibly have for going to school in Ithaca? I would definitely like to see this 30% Boalt / 60% MVP split though.

worldtraveler wrote:The same reasons people randomly hate on other T14 schools: applicants need something to argue about. The truth is that among the lower half the T10, and some would argue the T14 as a whole, the differences are so minute that they are mostly inconsequential. I'm sure I could do the same work coming out of Michigan, Virginia, or Penn that I'll be doing after Berkeley. Small differences in placement or #s of grads going into certain firms or PI isn't really something to base your whole decision on.
What does matter is personal preference. I'm sure I'd get the same education at the other schools I just mentioned. However, it was my belief that I would enjoy my time at Berkeley more than the other schools and it was just a better fit for me. Given that I'm happy here, I was probably correct. I'm sure you'll find other T10 students who picked their schools for the same reason. That's the kind of stuff that should make your decision, not agonizing over decimal points on a chart.


For me this makes sense, and I'm hoping that wherever I go to school, some other people were looking at it the same way. Having reviewed what I can about the various program's academics, I do not see how firms are considering a Berkeley education to be systematically deficient in some manner relative to MVP. Is it harder to rank than graded schools, and is it farther away? Sure. But if you personally are making your decision on where you want to spend three years of legal education based on an OCI success percentage, I'm a bit worried you're going to be unhappy as a lawyer.

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Rotor
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Rotor » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:02 pm

Older Chest wrote:According to USNWR, Boalt grads have a lower CA bar passage rate than UCLA and USC.
Not sure how old your data is, but it hasn't been true for at least a couple of years. See
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/californ ... en-thread/

Dean Edley has been pushing to get the passage rates even higher.

My personal view on the BigLaw placement that the rest of the thread has been talking about: If you want NYC or DC BigLaw, you can get it from Boalt. You may not have quite the same numbers of NYC firms coming for OCIP, but all the big names were here and hired Boalties. A bunch of folks I know got offers in NY for next summer, including Skadden, Cravath, Latham (might be DC office), Debevoise; even some smaller places like Freshfields. At least one was even successful with a firm not at OCIP. DC placements include Covington, Jones Day, Akin Gump. Heck, I even know of 3L OCIP success stories (now that's saying something!).

Of course, you have to do all the things that you'd have to do elsewhere (grades, work experience, law review), but doing that and bidding effectively you should do OK.

N.B.: I also have some friends who struck out at OCIP, but that number is much smaller than the numbers of folks I know who are really happy with the way things went this fall. This is all anecdotal for sure: maybe I just happen to know a skewed sample; maybe those who didn't do well aren't talking. But, from my personal perspective, things seem to have been much better than last year. There is quite a bit of self-selection away from BigLaw at Boalt so you can't take the pure numbers that people tend to throw around here without the requisite grains of salt.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:47 pm

ahduth wrote:
cornellbeez wrote: According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs. In contrast, according to the legal employment forum, its peers have placed 40-60% into biglaw. If you want hard data, ATL published an article stating that Cornell's Class of 2011, in particular, placed 40% into biglaw.


Can someone find this? I couldn't, but I'm pretty bad at the internets.


At least we agree on something.

Cornell: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/
Boalt: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=121418

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:52 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
ahduth wrote:
cornellbeez wrote: According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs. In contrast, according to the legal employment forum, its peers have placed 40-60% into biglaw. If you want hard data, ATL published an article stating that Cornell's Class of 2011, in particular, placed 40% into biglaw.


Can someone find this? I couldn't, but I'm pretty bad at the internets.


At least we agree on something.

Cornell: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/
Boalt: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=121418


RC fail.
Anonymous User wrote:If you went to the OCIP meetings/presentations, career services said that 30% of 1Ls got a job at OCIP last year. They said to expect about 40-45% of the class getting a job at OCIP this year. In other words, it is not looking good for someone with mostly Ps, since you are probably in the bottom 1/3 of your class.


30% of 1Ls. You realize that that's actually quite high for 1Ls at every top school right? And to "expect" 40-45% to get SAs through OCI is also quite high. If you recall, from the previous data from 2008 it was ~50% pre-ITE.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:53 pm

Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:
ahduth wrote:
cornellbeez wrote: According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs. In contrast, according to the legal employment forum, its peers have placed 40-60% into biglaw. If you want hard data, ATL published an article stating that Cornell's Class of 2011, in particular, placed 40% into biglaw.


Can someone find this? I couldn't, but I'm pretty bad at the internets.


At least we agree on something.

Cornell: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/
Boalt: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=121418


RC fail.
Anonymous User wrote:If you went to the OCIP meetings/presentations, career services said that 30% of 1Ls got a job at OCIP last year. They said to expect about 40-45% of the class getting a job at OCIP this year. In other words, it is not looking good for someone with mostly Ps, since you are probably in the bottom 1/3 of your class.


30% of 1Ls. You realize that that's actually quite high for 1Ls at every top school right? And to "expect" 40-45% to get SAs through OCI is also quite high. If you recall, it was ~50% pre-ITE.


Considering 1Ls don't go through OCIP or OCI or OGI in the T-14, that's most likely a typo. Obviously.

r6_philly
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:56 pm

We need a non-biglaw ranking chart.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:We need a non-biglaw ranking chart.


Like what? Clerkships? % of people in the nebulous category of prestigious PI? Mean salary? Median salary? Bar passage rate? Number of seats in the library?

Biglaw, with clerkships, seems like the best metric we are ever going to get (not that it is a great metric considering the lack of transparency).

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:59 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
RC fail.
Anonymous User wrote:If you went to the OCIP meetings/presentations, career services said that 30% of 1Ls got a job at OCIP last year. They said to expect about 40-45% of the class getting a job at OCIP this year. In other words, it is not looking good for someone with mostly Ps, since you are probably in the bottom 1/3 of your class.


30% of 1Ls. You realize that that's actually quite high for 1Ls at every top school right? And to "expect" 40-45% to get SAs through OCI is also quite high. If you recall, it was ~50% pre-ITE.


Considering 1Ls don't go through OCIP or OCI or OGI in the T-14, that's most likely a typo. Obviously.[/quote]

So the first part of the data is a typo but the second part is not? But dude that's your whole evidence!

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:02 pm

Sinra wrote: So the first part of the data is a typo but the second part is not? But dude that's your whole evidence!


0Ls are so annoying. Boalties posting after this message confirmed the stat. There were other threads as well during the bidding process, which I'm sure you can find on your own.

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:07 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
Sinra wrote: So the first part of the data is a typo but the second part is not? But dude that's your whole evidence!


0Ls are so annoying. Boalties posting after this message confirmed the stat. There were other threads as well, which I'm sure you can find on your own.


Anti-Berkeley trolls are annoying. :roll: I'm sure you can also find the threads on the OCI bloodbaths of these past two years at CCN and other top schools. The OP asked why Berkeley gets hated on particularly. Claiming that ITE biglaw placement isn't what it once was applies to the whole of the T14. But you keep insisting on using it as the sole metric of Berkeley hating. But you know, we can keep beating that dead horse if you like.
Last edited by Sinra on Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

r6_philly
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:We need a non-biglaw ranking chart.


Like what? Clerkships? % of people in the nebulous category of prestigious PI? Mean salary? Median salary? Bar passage rate? Number of seats in the library?

Biglaw, with clerkships, seems like the best metric we are ever going to get (not that it is a great metric considering the lack of transparency).


I don't know, maybe the same ranking but discount all the biglaw data and see? I am having a terrible time comparing and picking schools at the moment because everything is biglaw themed.

Actually I think for me it should just be T14 vs non T14 since the rest of me will probably determine my fate way more than my school/grades (as long as I don't end up bottom of class, but even then).

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:12 pm

Sinra wrote: Berkeley trolls are annoying. :roll: I'm sure you can also find the threads on the OCI bloodbaths of these past two years at CCN and other top schools. The OP asked why Berkeley gets hated on particularly. Claiming that ITE biglaw placement isn't what it once was applies to the whole of the T14. But you keep insisting on using it as the sole metric of Berkeley hating. But you know, we can keep beating that dead horse if you like.


Regarding your point about CCN -- An NYU student released legitimate data stating that ~2/3 of the Class of 2011 got biglaw at OCI. I believe a CLS student did the same, leaking CLS statistics online in the legal employment forum. CLS placed similarly to NYU. (You can search for them.) If you would learn how to use the search function, you would be able to find this information on TLS.

It's about disproportionate decline, not absolute decline.

Moreover, I never contended that it is the sole metric. For example, I think the comparatively low LSAT range also contributes to the hating.

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Drake014
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Drake014 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:23 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
Sinra wrote: So the first part of the data is a typo but the second part is not? But dude that's your whole evidence!


0Ls are so annoying. Boalties posting after this message confirmed the stat. There were other threads as well during the bidding process, which I'm sure you can find on your own.


Boalties didn't confirm this stat. You're grabbing parts of some Boalties opinions and ignoring others. Your anecdotal evidence even blows. I hope you're better in law school.




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