Why do people hate on Berkeley?

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Casey2889
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Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Casey2889 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:58 pm

I'm applying there. It's my 5th choice (3.98/172 @ ivy) after S/Y/H/Col, but it looks like a lot of folks on this board dismiss the place altogether. Is there something I'm missing? They're pretty consistently ranked top 5-7....yet people with credentials to get in are fawning over places like "MVP" (Michigan, Virginia, Penn, I presume..?) and not even applying to Boalt.

What's the deal?

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bk1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:01 pm

They tend to not place as many grads into biglaw as their peers (MVP). People generally view them as less prestigious than their peer schools unless you want to work in CA. They are also often harder (due to their love of high GPA's) than their peers to get into.

Probably has to do with a variety of reasons: small size of biglaw CA market, self-selection, firms avoiding hiring people even close to median based on Boalt's grading system, etc.

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Adjudicator
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Adjudicator » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:03 pm

The legal profession as a whole is very East-coast oriented.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:09 pm

Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.

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Drake014
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Drake014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:12 pm

--ImageRemoved--

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:13 pm

'Cause its BoalTTT

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:16 pm

cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East coast (again, some people prefer the West/CA)

Most importantly... Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D
Last edited by Sinra on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dabears1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby dabears1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:16 pm

Casey2889 wrote:I'm applying there. It's my 5th choice (3.98/172 @ ivy) after S/Y/H/Col, but it looks like a lot of folks on this board dismiss the place altogether. Is there something I'm missing? They're pretty consistently ranked top 5-7....yet people with credentials to get in are fawning over places like "MVP" (Michigan, Virginia, Penn, I presume..?) and not even applying to Boalt.

What's the deal?


Because Dean Tom lies. People with credentials to get in, aren't. Holistic shmolistic.

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East Coast (again, some people prefer the West.) 3. Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D


I could be wrong, but those stats are Pre-ITE

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emhellmer
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby emhellmer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:18 pm

As far as I have been able to gather:

1. They accept lower LSATs than their rankings peers.
2. They have rejected many of the posters on here who thought that they were a shoo-in by merit of their LSAT/GPA.

= A lot of posters on here hate on Berkeley because they were rejected while "inferior" people were accepted.

Berkeley places fewer applicants in elite law firms than approx. 10 other schools in the nation. According to a recent report that I cannot find a link to right now, only a tiny percentage (~50%) of 2009 graduates started making $160,000 a year immediately upon graduation, as opposed to ~55% at more elite schools and ~5% at every other school.

Therefore, Berkeley sucks, and you should use the adjective TTT as much as possible when making reference to it.

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:19 pm

Curry wrote:
Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East Coast (again, some people prefer the West.) 3. Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D


I could be wrong, but those stats are Pre-ITE


Find me stats from ITE that shows "low relative to peers" proof other than TLS's relentless BoalTTT trolling.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Sinra wrote: You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East Coast (again, some people prefer the West.) 3. Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D


For biglaw hiring purposes, that is old, irrelevant data. According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs. In contrast, according to the legal employment forum, its peers have placed 40-60% into biglaw. If you want hard data, ATL published an article stating that Cornell's Class of 2011, in particular, placed 40% into biglaw.
Last edited by cornellbeez on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:21 pm

cornellbeez wrote:
Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East coast (again, some people prefer the West/CA)

Most importantly... Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D

Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East Coast (again, some people prefer the West.) 3. Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D


For biglaw hiring purposes, that is old, irrelevant data. According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs.


You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:22 pm

Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:
Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East coast (again, some people prefer the West/CA)

Most importantly... Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D

Sinra wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Low biglaw placement relative to MVP, DCN. Historically, it has been ranked all over the place. It also the lowest LSAT range (163-167-170) out of all the top 14 schools and a few other non top 14, top 25 schools.


You call a .1-2.8% difference in placement "low relative to peers"? And there is a lot of self-selection involved as well. Repeat after me: Not everyone longs for NYC Biglaw.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

OP: It's a combination of things from what can be gleaned. 1. Lots of Berkeley students seem to self-select out of biglaw and go into public interest. 2. Doesn't seem to be as visible as its peers on the East Coast (again, some people prefer the West.) 3. Lots of people with high LSATs get upset when they get dinged there. :D


For biglaw hiring purposes, that is old, irrelevant data. According to the legal employment forum and Boalt students, CDO informed them that the Class of 2011 placed 30% into biglaw SAs.


You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


True but its the best evidence we've got.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:24 pm

Sinra wrote:You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


What is the plural of anecdote? Data. :P

Anyways, my point would be that we have no other data. Let's say you are biglaw or bust and choosing between BMVP with no regional preference whatsoever and biglaw being more important than anything else. I'd probably edge towards P in this situation, possible V after that.

Without any other real data, I see nothing wrong with going off ballpark estimates on TLS from current 2L's.

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:24 pm

Curry wrote:
You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


True but its the best evidence we've got.[/quote]

:roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:25 pm

Sinra wrote:
Curry wrote:

You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


True but its the best evidence we've got.


:roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.


Its more reliable than anything else.

cornellbeez
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby cornellbeez » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:26 pm

Sinra wrote:You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


What else do we have to work with? Not to mention, the decline in biglaw placement makes a lot of sense given Boalt's location. Also, it seems that CDO's statistic was confirmed by various posters.

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Sinra
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:26 pm

bk1 wrote:
Sinra wrote:You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


What is the plural of anecdote? Data. :P

Anyways, my point would be that we have no other data. Let's say you are biglaw or bust and choosing between BMVP with no regional preference whatsoever and biglaw being more important than anything else. I'd probably edge towards P in this situation, possible V after that.

Without any other real data, I see nothing wrong with going off ballpark estimates on TLS from current 2L's.


Bolded is credited. OP asked why people hate on Berkeley so much. IMO, it's mostly East Coast bias combined with the black box aspect of admissions there.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:26 pm

Sinra wrote: :roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.

:roll: The point is, how would you decide which school to go on if career prospects were most important to you?

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Older Chest
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Older Chest » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:27 pm

According to USNWR, Boalt grads have a lower CA bar passage rate than UCLA and USC.

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:27 pm

bk1 wrote:
Sinra wrote: :roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.

:roll: The point is, how would you decide which school to go on if career prospects were most important to you?


bk. We've been on a roll lately. high five!

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emhellmer
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby emhellmer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:30 pm

Curry wrote:
Sinra wrote:
Curry wrote:

You do understand that anecdotal evidence from TLS forums ≠ statistical evidence of absolutely anything right?


True but its the best evidence we've got.


:roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.


Its more reliable than anything else.


True true, yes yes. Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board>1.5 year old empirical data.

OP, as Berkeley has not had any recent graduates featured in the NY Times because they were making a mere $30/hr ($60,000/yr) as a legal temp, Berkeley is hereby superior to Columbia.

Curry

Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby Curry » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:32 pm

emhellmer wrote:
Curry wrote:
Sinra wrote:
Curry wrote:True but its the best evidence we've got.


:roll: The point is that it's not reliable evidence.


Its more reliable than anything else.


True true, yes yes. Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board>1.5 year old empirical data.

OP, as Berkeley has not had any recent graduates featured in the NY Times because they were making a mere $30/hr ($60,000/yr) as a legal temp, Berkeley is hereby superior to Columbia.


Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board with hundreds of responses regarding the matter > 1.5 year old outdated evidence that doesn't take into account the largest recession in recent history.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people hate on Berkeley?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:34 pm

emhellmer wrote:True true, yes yes. Anecdotal evidence from an internet message board>1.5 year old empirical data.


The legal market tanking in that time period is kind of a big deal, especially because that empirical data is "older" than 1.5 years considering the grads it covered did OCI pre-ITE (aka a long ass time ago).

The fact that NYC rebounded faster than other markets and that SF (CA in general) is in the crapper and struggling (similar to Chicago) means that having a pipeline to big firms in NYC (a la Penn) or placing grads broadly (a la Virginia) are huge advantages.




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