Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

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bk1
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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:07 pm

s0ph1e2007 wrote:As long as you feel that you are committed enough to do >50% at the T6 then ABSOLUTELY T6. IMO.


You are seriously fucking dumb.
Last edited by bk1 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A&O
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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby A&O » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
A&O wrote:
As long as you feel that you are committed enough to do >50% at the T6 then ABSOLUTELY T6. IMO.


...as opposed to the T6 law student not committed enough to do better than half of the class? I want to meet this person.


They exist, but they don't always end up in the bottom half.


Those are the true geniuses.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:10 pm

bk1 wrote:
s0ph1e2007 wrote:As long as you feel that you are committed enough to do >50% at the T6 then ABSOLUTELY T6. IMO.


You are seriously fucking dumb.


yea that has been my big problem in life :roll:
i feel bad for you

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby dabears1 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:11 pm

markdyoung wrote:This is what I'm looking at so far. I've been offered a full-ride at my home-state university (T30 school w/ low COL). Also, was admitted to a T6 (not HYS). Originally applied to state-school as a safety, but all the talk about the collapsed legal market, soul-crushing loans, debt collectors breaking your knee-caps, etc., has really made me nervous. Assuming no scholly from T6, which should I choose. My initial interest in law is to work in financial regulation, or do corporate law, but I'm a 0L so I honestly don't know shit. What you think?


I'd opt for the home-state (say IUB, for example) over T6 @ sticker because it's also more likely that I'd graduate at the top of my class at the former which, imo, would outweigh graduating lower down at a T6.... with a ton of debt as well.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:12 pm

A&O wrote:Wow. I thought ITE would have taught people to take the more debt-averse option (i.e., full ride at a lower T14 over HYS full price), but I guess I was wrong.


I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.



A&O wrote:I suppose. I ended up with a top firm job, but I'll be paying off some loans for a while. Friend of mine took a full ride at a T14. Not working at a top firm, but still making market. I wonder who's laughing at whom.


When you crunch the numbers, good PI work is really a much better deal than the biglaw route when you have have a heavy debt load (if you can get it).


bk1 wrote:You are seriously fucking dumb.


He's not dumb; he's just fallen for the idea of the American dream that so much of society preaches. The thing about his statement that's so crazy is that that was supposed to be the entire reason/payoff of going to a top school--so that you didn't have to perform especially well to get a job. ITE is a nightmare.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby A&O » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:15 pm

I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.


Well no... YS have pretty good need-based grant programs, so a lot of people looking at the two schools don't always have to pay full freight.

When you crunch the numbers, good PI work is really a much better deal than the biglaw route when you have have a heavy debt load (if you can get it).


Maybe, maybe not. Big firms provide invaluable training (because big firms can afford to throw a lot of money at training), and the skills young associates learn are hugely useful to people who later want to go into public interest or government.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:35 pm

A&O wrote:
I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.


Well no... YS have pretty good need-based grant programs, so a lot of people looking at the two schools don't always have to pay full freight.

When you crunch the numbers, good PI work is really a much better deal than the biglaw route when you have have a heavy debt load (if you can get it).


Maybe, maybe not. Big firms provide invaluable training (because big firms can afford to throw a lot of money at training), and the skills young associates learn are hugely useful to people who later want to go into public interest or government.



I meant financially. And frankly, from what I've heard from some DOJ people and people at smaller firms (although they are obviously biased) I'm not even sure about all of that.

In regards to HYS and paying sticker, that's exactly what I meant. As good as their need based aid programs are (even Harvard's) you have to be making a substantial sum of money to end up in a situation where you had to pay full price to attend HYS.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:36 pm

DOJ isn't a good representation of PI. Most PI pays way less than government.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby 20160810 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:50 pm

I took a very substantial scholarship at a T30, however in the interest of full disclosure I didn't have the option of a T6 to choose from and I would have been sorely tempted by the NYC schools and almost certainly have gone with HYS had I gotten in. In reality, it comes down to this: At the bottom part of the T30, you've got about a 20-25% shot at a firm job (maybe even 10% if we're just looking at the biggest/best firms). On the other hand, you're leaving virtually debt-free, so you don't HAVE to work for a firm, which is nice, considering that the hours suck and the work isn't always fun. Both are good choices, but the freedom of not having debt is really nice. I could quit being a lawyer and teach poli sci at a junior college after LS if I wanted to, and it wouldn't ruin me financially.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby JG Hall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:02 pm

cinephile wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
markdyoung wrote:This is what I'm looking at so far. I've been offered a full-ride at my home-state university (T30 school w/ low COL). Also, was admitted to a T6 (not HYS). Originally applied to state-school as a safety, but all the talk about the collapsed legal market, soul-crushing loans, debt collectors breaking your knee-caps, etc., has really made me nervous. Assuming no scholly from T6, which should I choose. My initial interest in law is to work in financial regulation, or do corporate law, but I'm a 0L so I honestly don't know shit. What you think?


Most people on TLS will advise taking the highest ranked school and paying sticker. This is because they're young and stupid and know nothing about life. Take the free ride since you said it was a good regional school (I assume this means you're happy with the region its in)


TITCR, I can't believe anyone would even suggest otherwise. Take the full ride at UGA and the worst case scenerio is you never find a legal job in GA or anywhere else and you lost 3 years of wages you could have earned while in law school and still end up ~60K in debt from CoL loans. If you go to CCN, the worst case scenerio is you end up with $200k of debt that cannot be discharged, and you never find a legal job, and lost 3 years of wages.

fixt

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby 20160810 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:05 pm

JG Hall wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
markdyoung wrote:This is what I'm looking at so far. I've been offered a full-ride at my home-state university (T30 school w/ low COL). Also, was admitted to a T6 (not HYS). Originally applied to state-school as a safety, but all the talk about the collapsed legal market, soul-crushing loans, debt collectors breaking your knee-caps, etc., has really made me nervous. Assuming no scholly from T6, which should I choose. My initial interest in law is to work in financial regulation, or do corporate law, but I'm a 0L so I honestly don't know shit. What you think?


Most people on TLS will advise taking the highest ranked school and paying sticker. This is because they're young and stupid and know nothing about life. Take the free ride since you said it was a good regional school (I assume this means you're happy with the region its in)


TITCR, I can't believe anyone would even suggest otherwise. Take the full ride at UGA and the worst case scenerio is you never find a legal job in GA or anywhere else and you lost 3 years of wages you could have earned while in law school and still end up ~60K in debt from CoL loans. If you go to CCN, the worst case scenerio is you end up with $200k of debt that cannot be discharged, and you never find a legal job, and lost 3 years of wages.

fixt

You can get by with closer to 30K in COL loans in most places.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:33 pm

My dear god the misinformation and idiocy in this thread is at an all time high, even for TLS. Let's see here...

BruceWayne wrote:I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.

No. HYS (especially HY) have outstanding financial aid (basically the only schools that really do need-based aid), and as I understand it, are also very good with LRAP. And a large majority of students at HYS can get 6 figure salaries if that is what they choose to pursue, which makes paying back loans very doable.

s0ph1e2007 wrote:As long as you feel that you are committed enough to do >50% at the T6 then ABSOLUTELY T6. IMO.

lolwut??? Determination and commitment are essentially non-factors in doing well in law school. There isn't much (if any) correlation between how much one studies and how one does. The difference between a "hard worker" and a "slacker" in law school is really not much, because even those who don't work all that hard still work pretty goddamn hard. Some of the hardest working students are the most disappointed with their grades.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:lolwut??? Determination and commitment are essentially non-factors in doing well in law school. There isn't much (if any) correlation between how much one studies and how one does. The difference between a "hard worker" and a "slacker" in law school is really not much, because even those who don't work all that hard still work pretty goddamn hard. Some of the hardest working students are the most disappointed with their grades.


I wonder if that is a real non/negative correlation or just the people that "get it" don't need to study as much to get higher grades.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:59 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:lolwut??? Determination and commitment are essentially non-factors in doing well in law school. There isn't much (if any) correlation between how much one studies and how one does. The difference between a "hard worker" and a "slacker" in law school is really not much, because even those who don't work all that hard still work pretty goddamn hard. Some of the hardest working students are the most disappointed with their grades.


I wonder if that is a real non/negative correlation or just the people that "get it" don't need to study as much to get higher grades.
That may be, but of course, nobody knows that going in.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:My dear god the misinformation and idiocy in this thread is at an all time high, even for TLS. Let's see here...

BruceWayne wrote:I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.

No. HYS (especially HY) have outstanding financial aid (basically the only schools that really do need-based aid), and as I understand it, are also very good with LRAP. And a large majority of students at HYS can get 6 figure salaries if that is what they choose to pursue, which makes paying back loans very doable.

s0ph1e2007 wrote:As long as you feel that you are committed enough to do >50% at the T6 then ABSOLUTELY T6. IMO.

lolwut??? Determination and commitment are essentially non-factors in doing well in law school. There isn't much (if any) correlation between how much one studies and how one does. The difference between a "hard worker" and a "slacker" in law school is really not much, because even those who don't work all that hard still work pretty goddamn hard. Some of the hardest working students are the most disappointed with their grades.


My Dear God my post went way over your head. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds. I've noticed that a lot of people on TLS come form high income backgrounds. They're always talking about how they shouldn't have gone to law school because they 1. Had a job that payed them 75K plus before they entered law school 2. They could have had a job that would have payed them that much or 3. They had lots of money saved up that they could have lived on

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:32 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I can't believe how many people end up paying sticker at HYS. With the way their financial aid works you really have to be pulling in some serious cash to pay sticker there.

No. HYS (especially HY) have outstanding financial aid (basically the only schools that really do need-based aid), and as I understand it, are also very good with LRAP. And a large majority of students at HYS can get 6 figure salaries if that is what they choose to pursue, which makes paying back loans very doable.


My Dear God my post went way over your head. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds. I've noticed that a lot of people on TLS come form high income backgrounds. They're always talking about how they shouldn't have gone to law school because they 1. Had a job that payed them 75K plus before they entered law school 2. They could have had a job that would have payed them that much or 3. They had lots of money saved up that they could have lived on


Ehh... HYS( well H at least) financial aid isnt what I would call spectacular (Besides LRAP). At minimum, even with family contribution of zero, you are facing 120k in debt and that cant be reduced via SA earnings because they reduce your grant based on earnings and expect you to pay a large amount of the SA salary towards tuition. Its definitely at least solid though. It is pretty shocking that no one faces HYS w/ $$ vs. CCN full ride though. I did a search and literally found no one.

Regarding this choice, however I agree that their isnt an absolutely credited response. This is one of those decisions that are only good or bad in hindsight (kind of like people saying they should've taken full ride T14 over HYS after they graduate). I never seriously considered attending a school lower than Vanderbilt so I really dont know what exactly to think about T30. I really cant imagine getting into CCN but not getting anything at schools like Vandy/Texas. I would wait for need-based aid results to come back before deciding. W/o significant aid from any of the lower T14+Vandy/Texas/UCLA I really think this is a personal decision of the type that TLS cant really help with. The difference in chances of biglaw are so large that you really have to decide how much you value the difference. Everyone has different levels of debt/risk aversion and none of us have anywhere near full information regarding CCN employment/salary outcomes. All we can tell you is that 60-70% of CCN students likely had the opportunity to make $145k+ last year.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds.


Or they just take out loans like everyone else? Just a thought.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:43 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds.


Or they just take out loans like everyone else? Just a thought.


Huh?? He means that they are not getting any grant aid via the HYS financial aid system. Meaning they either have either a large amount of assets or have fairly high family incomes.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds.


Or they just take out loans like everyone else? Just a thought.


In your attempt at sarcasm you're still missing it--presumably because you haven't researched this. HYS will literally give you grants because of how low your income is. Stanford is particularly generous. I've spoken to posters who (because of their need based aid policy) have gotten full tuition grants at HYS.


tkgrrett wrote:Ehh... HYS( well H at least) financial aid isnt what I would call spectacular (Besides LRAP). At minimum, even with family contribution of zero, you are facing 120k in debt and that cant be reduced via SA earnings because they reduce your grant based on earnings and expect you to pay a large amount of the SA salary towards tuition. Its definitely at least solid though. It is pretty shocking that no one faces HYS w/ $$ vs. CCN full ride though. I did a search and literally found no one.

Regarding this choice, however I agree that their isnt an absolutely credited response. This is one of those decisions that are only good or bad in hindsight (kind of like people saying they should've taken full ride T14 over HYS after they graduate). I never seriously considered attending a school lower than Vanderbilt so I really dont know what exactly to think about T30. I really cant imagine getting into CCN but not getting anything at schools like Vandy/Texas. I would wait for need-based aid results to come back before deciding. W/o significant aid from any of the lower T14+Vandy/Texas/UCLA I really think this is a personal decision of the type that TLS cant really help with. The difference in chances of biglaw are so large that you really have to decide how much you value the difference. Everyone has different levels of debt/risk aversion and none of us have anywhere near full information regarding CCN employment/salary outcomes. All we can tell you is that 60-70% of CCN students likely had the opportunity to make $145k+ last year.


Something's wrong with the scenario you're describing. YS don't take into account summer earnings; and even at HLS it's not like you are guaranteed (or have to) work a firm job for any of your summers (you probably won't be doing it after 1L). If you qualify for the max need based financial aid at HYS that means you don't pay tuition. The reason that a lot of people don't get the max financial aid at HYS is because most people who attend HYS are pretty well off financially. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby JG Hall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

SBL wrote:
JG Hall wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Drake014 wrote:Most people on TLS will advise taking the highest ranked school and paying sticker. This is because they're young and stupid and know nothing about life. Take the free ride since you said it was a good regional school (I assume this means you're happy with the region its in)


TITCR, I can't believe anyone would even suggest otherwise. Take the full ride at UGA and the worst case scenerio is you never find a legal job in GA or anywhere else and you lost 3 years of wages you could have earned while in law school and still end up ~60K in debt from CoL loans. If you go to CCN, the worst case scenerio is you end up with $200k of debt that cannot be discharged, and you never find a legal job, and lost 3 years of wages.

fixt

You can get by with closer to 30K in COL loans in most places.

UGA puts CoL at almost 18k this year. I doubt they're lowballing it by that much.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:56 pm

JG Hall wrote:UGA puts CoL at almost 18k this year. I doubt they're lowballing it by that much.


You can get a good apartment in Athens for $450 a month.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:01 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Ehh... HYS( well H at least) financial aid isnt what I would call spectacular (Besides LRAP). At minimum, even with family contribution of zero, you are facing 120k in debt and that cant be reduced via SA earnings because they reduce your grant based on earnings and expect you to pay a large amount of the SA salary towards tuition. Its definitely at least solid though. It is pretty shocking that no one faces HYS w/ $$ vs. CCN full ride though. I did a search and literally found no one.

Regarding this choice, however I agree that their isnt an absolutely credited response. This is one of those decisions that are only good or bad in hindsight (kind of like people saying they should've taken full ride T14 over HYS after they graduate). I never seriously considered attending a school lower than Vanderbilt so I really dont know what exactly to think about T30. I really cant imagine getting into CCN but not getting anything at schools like Vandy/Texas. I would wait for need-based aid results to come back before deciding. W/o significant aid from any of the lower T14+Vandy/Texas/UCLA I really think this is a personal decision of the type that TLS cant really help with. The difference in chances of biglaw are so large that you really have to decide how much you value the difference. Everyone has different levels of debt/risk aversion and none of us have anywhere near full information regarding CCN employment/salary outcomes. All we can tell you is that 60-70% of CCN students likely had the opportunity to make $145k+ last year.


Something's wrong with the scenario you're describing. YS don't take into account summer earnings; and even at HLS it's not like you are guaranteed (or have to) work a firm job for any of your summers (you probably won't be doing it after 1L). If you qualify for the max need based financial aid at HYS that means you don't pay tuition. The reason that a lot of people don't get the max financial aid at HYS is because most people who attend HYS are pretty well off financially.


Yes you dont have to work firm jobs but you still lose a way to reduce borrowing. The way it works is that you get a certain allowance for living and taxes and 90% of the rest is expected to be contributed to tuition and reduces any grants. Essentially, not working a firm job doesnt hurt you debt-wise but working one doesnt help you much either. A $3,000/wk, 10 wk. SA would reduce your grant eligibility by like ~15k and you would have to make that up. The bolded in your post is definitely not how it works at H despite popular belief. H has a standard formula for aid. Everyone is expected to have a base loan package of ~38,600 and then there is a minimum student contribution of $2,500 making the max grant you can receive a little over 28k (all this based on last years formula). Estimated student budget was 70,100 so you are still looking at ~42k/yr. in loans even if your family contribution is zero and you are only assigned the minimum student contribution amount..

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romothesavior
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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:28 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm amazed because there are a decent number of posters on here who manage to get into HYS and yet have to pay sticker or close to it--meaning they come from some very high income backgrounds.


Or they just take out loans like everyone else? Just a thought.


Huh?? He means that they are not getting any grant aid via the HYS financial aid system. Meaning they either have either a large amount of assets or have fairly high family incomes.


I think I see what you're saying... in order to pay sticker, you'd have to not be making a lot of money because they give out a lot of aid. Amirite? If so, sorry for misinterpreting your post.

You'll have to forgive me... I don't go to an elite T10 like you. You go to a school with medians a little higher than mine so you are obviously far smarter. I iz stoopid.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:38 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Yes you dont have to work firm jobs but you still lose a way to reduce borrowing. The way it works is that you get a certain allowance for living and taxes and 90% of the rest is expected to be contributed to tuition and reduces any grants. Essentially, not working a firm job doesnt hurt you debt-wise but working one doesnt help you much either. A $3,000/wk, 10 wk. SA would reduce your grant eligibility by like ~15k and you would have to make that up. The bolded in your post is definitely not how it works at H despite popular belief. H has a standard formula for aid. Everyone is expected to have a base loan package of ~38,600 and then there is a minimum student contribution of $2,500 making the max grant you can receive a little over 28k (all this based on last years formula). Estimated student budget was 70,100 so you are still looking at ~42k/yr. in loans even if your family contribution is zero and you are only assigned the minimum student contribution amount..


Ahhh I see. That's a bit weak on Harvard's part considering that Stanford and Yale apparently don't do that, even moreso when you consider that they actually have the largest endowment of the 3.


romothesavior wrote:So what is your point then? Maybe my non-elite law school self can't understand what your point is.


Either you have a huge chip on your shoulder or you are really not paying attention (possibly both). What we're saying is that HYS (well at least YS) give need based GRANTS. In other words they essentially give you a scholarship for being broke. Ie there would be no need to take out loans except for living expenses books etc.

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Re: Full-Ride at T30 vs. Sticker T6

Postby dissonance1848 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:41 pm

I don't get it. With a 3.8/175, I would think the OP can get money at Michigan. Forget UGA.




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