Schools that place well in Arizona? Forum

[Edmonds4]

I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."

LOL....Candy never stops sending those emails! On a serious note, do not go to Phoenix.

I wouldnt dream of it

[FlightoftheEarls]

flightoftheearls, as far as the quality of schools go, I think you probably would indeed consider me to be naive and misled. The perspectives of many people on this site, compared with those I come into contact with in the real world, are vastly different. I have met numerous lawyers who went to even T3 or T4 schools and are doing really well. So, Im just having a hard time deciphering which perspective is accurate. The perspective of many on this site seems far too grim to me, but obviously I cannot be sure of that... Do you understand my confusion?

I definitely understand the confusion. As Veyron mentioned, and I think as applies pretty much across the board (regardless of what market you're in), the legal field has become far too saturated in the past decade. Whereas somebody at a T3 was likely to be just fine after graduating from law school in the top 1/3 or so, that's far from likely now. I'm born and raised in Arizona, and one of my closest friends is a 3L at Arizona (c/o 2011). Law Review Ed Board, top 5-10%, and Ed Board of a secondary journal as well. Easily one of the most likable people I've ever meet, but still didn't land anything from OCI. Obviously he was in the worst of it timing-wise, but with students from T14s coming back to secondary markets due to the cutbacks in primary markets, it can be really tough out there. I guess my point is that putting yourself in the best position you can before coming to school is so much easier than trying to dig yourself out of the hole. Take the advice about the LSAT for what you will - nobody likes to hear it, and it's your future so you're naturally free to disregard the advice if you'd like. Just know that if the LSAT seems daunting, it unfortunately only gets worse from here.

but preparing for that test is simply drilling yourself on practice tests and figuring out what types of mistakes you repeatedly make based on objectively correct answers.

FWIW, this is a key to success on most law school exams also.

Really? I don't know what law school exams you've taken, but I can count only a single class in all of law school where the professor designed his hypotheticals where the correct answer wasn't made as intentionally ambiguous as possible. Maybe your experience has been very different. I've actually even had a few professors insist that they don't even want us to decide which side wins - the entire point of the exam is to determine why each party's claim may or may not succeed and, if you're arguing policy, should or should not succeed, based on ambiguities in the facts and law. Or were you instead referring only to the "practice tests" part without seeing the "objectively correct" answers part? If so, that would make more sense.

[BeautifulSW]

Funny thing; I'm trying to recall if I have EVER seen a UNM Law grad go to work in Phoenix. Doubtless there have been many over the years, especially 2007 and before when the Arizona market was sizzling. But I don't recall Arizona firms recruiting at UNM Law 25 years ago nor do recruiting ads for Arizona firms ever appear in the New Mexico Bar Bulletin.

Take it for what it's worth but I tend to agree that folks who want to practice in Arizona shouldn't pick UNM Law.

[ColomboHeat]

it would be senseless not to retake IMO

[Aqualibrium]

but preparing for that test is simply drilling yourself on practice tests and figuring out what types of mistakes you repeatedly make based on objectively correct answers.

FWIW, this is a key to success on most law school exams also.

Really? I don't know what law school exams you've taken, but I can count only a single class in all of law school where the professor designed his hypotheticals where the correct answer wasn't made as intentionally ambiguous as possible. Maybe your experience has been very different. I've actually even had a few professors insist that they don't even want us to decide which side wins - the entire point of the exam is to determine why each party's claim may or may not succeed and, if you're arguing policy, should or should not succeed, based on ambiguities in the facts and law. Or were you instead referring only to the "practice tests" part without seeing the "objectively correct" answers part? If so, that would make more sense.

I was referring to the entire statement. IMO succeeding in law school is about understanding and practicing the tasks you'll be asked to complete on the exam. Aside from just taking practice exams that your professor provides, there are also loads of books out there that contain multiple choice and essay questions accompanied by detailed and objectively correct answers. I tell this to all of the 1L's that I've taken under my wing, "I promise you will receive better than median grades if you buy the Lexis Q&A and do every single problem in the book. Go over the answers understand why what you wrote is right or wrong, and I guarantee you'll be able to successfully analyze any hypothetical or policy question that's put in front of you come exam time."

I totally agree that often on the exam, it's not about reaching some right conclusion, but about how you get to that conclusion. Just like practically everything else in life, practicing analyzing a fact pattern and getting to a conclusion will improve your ability to do it again later. Because I drilled myself on practice tests and figured out what types of mistakes I repeatedly made based on objectively correct answers, it was easy to do the same when it came to my exams. On a few of my exams, I encountered scenarios that were strikingly similar to ones I had seen and answered before. I don't think I have to tell you how helpful it is to have run into a situation similar to an exam hypo that resembles one you've already analyzed and applied the cases and the things that your professor said to.

[Edmonds4]

After having a few days to let things sink in, I have indeed decided to retake.. So thank u people for the advice!.. But NOW I have yet another question..

I applied to both UA and ASU on January 6th, w/a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA from ASU) and 156 December LSAT. I spoke with both admissions offices this morning (ASU over telephone and UA through email), and the only advice they could give me was that they DO regularly admit people who take the February LSAT (and that its really up to me, of course). In the end, they both agreed to not complete my file until the February scores are in. I've already signed up for Feb 12th.

I do not care about financial aid at all, because in-state tuition is reasonable and the most important thing for me is staying close to my family... BUT, in terms of being admitted, can you please give me an honest evaluation of where you think I stand??? Is there a certain score that would essentially guarentee me admission for this cycle???

[Veyron]

After having a few days to let things sink in, I have indeed decided to retake.. So thank u people for the advice!.. But NOW I have yet another question..

I applied to both UA and ASU on January 6th, w/a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA from ASU) and 156 December LSAT. I spoke with both admissions offices this morning (ASU over telephone and UA through email), and the only advice they could give me was that they DO regularly admit people who take the February LSAT (and that its really up to me, of course). In the end, they both agreed to not complete my file until the February scores are in. I've already signed up for Feb 12th.

I do not care about financial aid at all, because in-state tuition is reasonable and the most important thing for me is staying close to my family... BUT, in terms of being admitted, can you please give me an honest evaluation of where you think I stand??? Is there a certain score that would essentially guarentee me admission for this cycle???

1) If you don't care about financial aid but do care about staying close to your family, live at home. The job you are likely to get out of ASU absent top 5%-10% performance [statistically unlikely for someone w your LSAT score] AND good interview skills ITE is likely going to be something in the 35-60K range. After servicing 130K in debt (aprox COA + living expenses paying instate tuition) paying INTEREST ONLY costs about 10K/yr effectively making your salary 25-50 (if you get a legal job at all). Live with your family and eat at home and you might be able to knock 30Gs off this amount.

2) ASU evaluates apps late. Late apps have real trouble with fin aid but a bit less with admission.

3) No idea, probably a 162 would do it w that GPA even for a feb applicant.

[mepg]

After having a few days to let things sink in, I have indeed decided to retake.. So thank u people for the advice!.. But NOW I have yet another question..

I applied to both UA and ASU on January 6th, w/a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA from ASU) and 156 December LSAT. I spoke with both admissions offices this morning (ASU over telephone and UA through email), and the only advice they could give me was that they DO regularly admit people who take the February LSAT (and that its really up to me, of course). In the end, they both agreed to not complete my file until the February scores are in. I've already signed up for Feb 12th.

I do not care about financial aid at all, because in-state tuition is reasonable and the most important thing for me is staying close to my family... BUT, in terms of being admitted, can you please give me an honest evaluation of where you think I stand??? Is there a certain score that would essentially guarentee me admission for this cycle???

Because you applied so late, I do think you need to retake. I am an ASU student, and was accepted EA with slightly higher numbers a couple of years ago. Being an AZ resident will definitely help. However, the later in the cycle you apply, the slimmer the chances. A few points on the LSAT, along with being an AZ resident should go a long way with your GPA.

[Edmonds4]

Im not sure how feasible it would be to live at home. My family lives in NW Glendale, so that would be quite a bit of travel time to Tempe every day probably. Definitely something I will think about though if I end up getting in.

Also, I know that I can do better this time around. Surprisingly, I was typically PTing around 164-167, but on test day/week anxiety took over and I could not focus at all. This time, Im going to try doing a much better job controlling my nerves by getting into a routine.

I am glad to hear that being a resident may help me out..

[20160810]

I have a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA), and only a 156 LSAT (which I am NOT retaking). I ultimatley would like to work in Arizona, but in case I do not get into either ASU or UA, what schools would you recommend? With my numbers, do any schools come to mind that typically place well in Arizona? Thank you in advance!

If you don't get into ASU or U of A, you don't want to retake the LSAT, and you insist on being in Arizona, then you need to begin thinking of alternate careers immediately.

[Edmonds4]

I have a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA), and only a 156 LSAT (which I am NOT retaking). I ultimatley would like to work in Arizona, but in case I do not get into either ASU or UA, what schools would you recommend? With my numbers, do any schools come to mind that typically place well in Arizona? Thank you in advance!

If you don't get into ASU or U of A, you don't want to retake the LSAT, and you insist on being in Arizona, then you need to begin thinking of alternate careers immediately.

Ive already signed up for February (after thinking about alternate careers for the past few days)...

[Veyron]

Good, if you are too lazy to retake a 156 you aren't cut out for the workload in law school or the legal profession. Still, if you would be happy doing something else, why not do that? Less debt, better prospects.

[Edmonds4]

Good, if you are too lazy to retake a 156 you aren't cut out for the workload in law school or the legal profession.

Im not lazy at all. After getting my December score, however, I was feeling completely dejected and not thinking very clearly at all.. You were obviously right about retaking..

Aaaand, I would have no clue what kind of job I could land with a Political Science Degree

[Veyron]

Good, if you are too lazy to retake a 156 you aren't cut out for the workload in law school or the legal profession.

Im not lazy at all. After getting my December score, however, I was feeling completely dejected and not thinking very clearly at all.. You were obviously right about retaking..

Aaaand, I would have no clue what kind of job I could land with a Political Science Degree

And in 3 years you will have no clue what job you can land with a law degree. You do know that at least 1/2 of ASU law is graduating sans legal job ITE, right? With no WE or professional network, you're not going to be in great shape. Phoenix legal hiring is also EXTREMELY grades focused for a large market (I wish AZ was a prestige whore like NY). LSAT is the best predictor of 1L grades. This is expecially true if your undergrad was ASU and you didn't major in the sciences since your GPA is likely hyperinflated. So many friends of mine who went to ASU got a 4.0 or higher. Some went on to lawschool in state and didn't do all that well. My group of friends is pretty bright, but still at my undergrad, I had friends that were just as bright and I don't know anyone who graduated close to 4.0. ASU Law gets tons of people from other undergads including some very elite ones. The LSAT is the one standardized measure that you can use to tell how well you will do against them and law school exams call on suprisingly similar skills.

[LurkerNoMore]

I'm glad to hear you are retaking, but I would really recommend that you wait until June so that you don't rush and have some real time to conquer your test anxiety. Rushing ahead, I'm afraid could be disastrous for your career.

In UG, you are right, there is no such thing really as a make or break test. In law school, every exam your first year is make or break. The curve, not how you did in some sort of objective sense, determines your grade. Your grades first year create enormous momentum as to your job opportunities. If you don't do well your first semester, the pressure to not just do well, but to be at the top of the curve mounts second semester.

Additionally, there is the bar exam to consider. If you think LSAT pressure is bad, I'm worried what will happen when you sit for the bar.

Also, you really should care about scholarships -- probably no other thing will help you with exam and bar stress than having minimized your debt. Taking the LSAT is all about hopes and dreams -- the bar is about all of that (if you haven't been disillusioned) AND potentially 6 figures of debt.

Sorry to sound so negative, but you seem like you are rushing into a situation needlessly. At the end of UG there can be a lot of pressure to nail down "what's next." It's artificial pressure. Step back, really get to work on some of your anxiety issues. Give yourself more time to prep (if you can get to scoring 180 on practice exams, then you have a looooong way to fall on the real thing, which will probably take off a lot of pressure for you). Even if you end up working at a temp agency or waiting tables, the time off will be well spent (scholarships can be worth 5-6 figures over three years -- that takes a lot of the bite out of a minimum wage job).

Good luck.

[sab0tage]

OP - Not even sure if you are still watching this thread but you should check out beta blockers. Don't know much about them but supposed to lower anxiety responses without limiting congnitive function. here ->

"Some people have used beta blockers for performance enhancement, and especially to combat performance anxiety'. In particular, musicians, public speakers, actors, and professional dancers, have been known to use beta blockers to avoid stage fright and tremor during public performance and especially auditions. The physiological symptoms of the fight/flight response associated with performance anxiety and panic (pounding heart, cold/clammy hands, increased respiration, sweating, etc.) are significantly reduced, thus enabling anxious individuals to concentrate on the task at hand."

That is from wikipedia so take with a grain of salt.
Clearly not a long term solution to your test anxiety but might be something you want to consider.

[nshapkar]

Phoenix Law School places pretty well in Arizona. I know TLS won't agree, but they are a school that is definitely on the rise. I believe that their new building will attract more top students and land them in the top 100 in the next 4 years.

are you fucking high?

[nshapkar]

Phoenix Law School places pretty well in Arizona. I know TLS won't agree, but they are a school that is definitely on the rise. I believe that their new building will attract more top students and land them in the top 100 in the next 4 years.

Yes, the place fairly well for an unranked school that will prob be T4. However, the reason for this is that many of the students there have gone to law school to ADVANCE their career. They have a job lined up from day 1 or have connections in the legal field up the wazzu.

For instance, I have a friend there that has consulted for law firms for decades. None of her former clients in law are going to give a shit about where she went to law school, they are already well acquainted with the high quality of her work and no fancy diploma is necessary as a quality-control measure for a firm that might hire her.

If you are just some random UG and you want a job that will allow you to pay off the debt from PSOL, you need to be in the top 10 people (not %) in the class.

I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."

Oh, guess not...my bad. lol @ Candy

[nshapkar]

Im not sure how feasible it would be to live at home. My family lives in NW Glendale, so that would be quite a bit of travel time to Tempe every day probably. Definitely something I will think about though if I end up getting in.

I live in Anthem and had to drive five days a week to Tempe my freshmen year. It's not that bad. Now I only go Tuesday and Thursday so its definitely wayyy easier. However, I am an expert at driving in rush hour traffic. By expert I mean I avoid stopping and going (repeat x500)--I don't change lanes-- which prevents me from stressing out behind the wheel.

[fragged]

I am hoping to get into ASU, but have not heard yet.

I have been accepted to U of Utah, wondering if they place well in Arizona. Anyone know?

[Veyron]

I am hoping to get into ASU, but have not heard yet.

I have been accepted to U of Utah, wondering if they place well in Arizona. Anyone know?

Not really.

[bellamy]

I am hoping to get into ASU, but have not heard yet.

I have been accepted to U of Utah, wondering if they place well in Arizona. Anyone know?

Not really.

Actually BYU places much better in the Phoenix market and should be considered even if you aren't a Mormon if you are thinking about UofU but want AZ

[mkr5u]

I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."

LOL....Candy never stops sending those emails! On a serious note, do not go to Phoenix.

I wouldnt dream of it

That woman spelled my name incorrectly AND got my GPA wrong in her email. When I told her I 1) was definitely not applying to Phoenix and would rather not attend any school than Phoenix (ok, I didn't say that, but I meant it); 2) that she got my name and stats wrong, she STILL kept emailing me asking when I would be applying!

Her "Candy" is like those really awful red hots...

[Veyron]

I am hoping to get into ASU, but have not heard yet.

I have been accepted to U of Utah, wondering if they place well in Arizona. Anyone know?

Not really.

Actually BYU places much better in the Phoenix market and should be considered even if you aren't a Mormon if you are thinking about UofU but want AZ

This is true, but how does it contradict what I said?

[Capitol A]

I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."

LOL....Candy never stops sending those emails! On a serious note, do not go to Phoenix.

I wouldnt dream of it

That woman spelled my name incorrectly AND got my GPA wrong in her email. When I told her I 1) was definitely not applying to Phoenix and would rather not attend any school than Phoenix (ok, I didn't say that, but I meant it); 2) that she got my name and stats wrong, she STILL kept emailing me asking when I would be applying!

Her "Candy" is like those really awful red hots...

I live about 1.5miles from Phoenix SOL and I think I've gotten an email from every T3 in this country, but have not gotten a single thing from Phx SOL. Makes me feel bad.