Schools that place well in Arizona?

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Edmonds4
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Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:00 pm

I have a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA), and only a 156 LSAT (which I am NOT retaking). I ultimatley would like to work in Arizona, but in case I do not get into either ASU or UA, what schools would you recommend? With my numbers, do any schools come to mind that typically place well in Arizona? Thank you in advance!

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NorCalBruin
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby NorCalBruin » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:34 pm

To be honest with you, ASU and U of A are really the only two schools in Arizona worth applying to. The only other school that might place in Arizona that you can get in to with those numbers is the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque... but that's pretty much speculation and I would do my research.

Let me also break the ice, because someone is GOING to ask you this anyway...

1.) Why is a retake not an option? With that (great) GPA you could vastly improve your options and scholarship opportunities by increasing your LSAT score just a few points.

2.) Have you already taken the LSAT three times in the last two years? If not, retake. If that was your first LSAT, you haven't given it enough time and effort yet.

3.) You worked hard to get a great GPA, why wouldn't you work equally hard to give yourself the best opportunity to get into a great law school and minimize your debt? What's the rush. With that...

4.) Why can't you wait a year, think seriously about this decision, and in the meantime, retake?

1+2+3+4=Retake.

Without a better explanation, everyone on this thread/forum is going to tell you the same thing.

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:07 pm

I definitely understand why you suggest that, but the reason Im not going to retake is because I have indeed put in the effort (over a years worth). I took the LSAT in October and canceled as well. Im intelligent, but I simply cannot handle the stress of a standardized test that has so much riding on the results. It was the same thing with the SAT (where I scored an 800 and placed in the 14th percentile). This obviously did not translate to the success Ive had as an undergrad, and my hope is that at least one decent school will recognize this and give me a chance. I simply refuse to wait a year, as I would rather take my chances at a different (perhaps lesser) school and try to transfer. Moreover, Im confident that my work ethic will enable me to do so..

Ive applied to ASU, UA, and Santa Clara, and will apply to Iowa, Pepperdine, Oregon, and Seattle U today. Would you suggest any others? Which of these schools do you realistically think I would be in/out/waitlisted at?

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beachbum
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby beachbum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:13 pm

What are you going to do differently to handle the stress of law school exams?

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:19 pm

I am fine on school exams, and they've never been an issue. My problem is that when I begin focusing on a specific exam 12 to 15 months in advance, I simply cannot keep it in perspective and I get overwhelmed.. With school exams, I never dwell on any single one because there are a number of them. I just dont think it will be a problem when an exam is only on my mind for a semester or less.

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:21 pm

UNM does NOT place well in AZ

T3>T10 (according to some, there is a distinction between T10 and T14, according to others, no distinction) > T14 > ASU, U of A, UCLA, Vandy, Texas (some might say ND), BYU > Idaho (so I hear) > Field > PCOL > T3s, T4s

If you can't get into ASU or U of A, don't go.
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Reedie
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Reedie » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:24 pm

Veyron wrote:UNM does NOT place well in AZ

T3>T14>ASU, U of A, UCLA, Vandy, Texas (some might say ND), BYU > Idaho (so I hear) > Field > PCOL > T3s, T4s

If you can't get into ASU or U of A, don't go.


Might be worth adding Colorado somewhere on that list.

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Reedie wrote:
Veyron wrote:UNM does NOT place well in AZ

T3>T14>ASU, U of A, UCLA, Vandy, Texas (some might say ND), BYU > Idaho (so I hear) > Field > PCOL > T3s, T4s

If you can't get into ASU or U of A, don't go.


Might be worth adding Colorado somewhere on that list.


Good point, probably throw them in with Idaho.

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NorCalBruin
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby NorCalBruin » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:33 pm

Test anxiety is real, and panic attacks are real. It will affect your performance. No doubt about it. Anyone who says differently is an idiot. That said, I think the more times you actually take the LSAT (I don't just mean PTs, I mean actually sitting for an administration), the less anxiety you'll feel. For me, I was diagnosed with a panic disorder (which included hypervigilance, yikes!) at the start of last year. But, I was able to deal with it and get it under control and almost eliminate it without medication within a few months by controlling my diet, exercise, and sleep pattern. For the LSAT I had every variable and possible situation worked out and felt very under control and didn't stress (welll... not enough to freak out anyway). Maybe talking to a doctor or counselor or starting your own regimen could seriously help you if you do decide to retake. It's just a thought.

As for applying now, I would write a 1-2 paragraph addendum explaining that test scores don't reflect your true ability to excel academically. Nothing sappy or dramatic. Just straight and to the point. I would also consider getting a copy or copies of your SAT score, as this will provide evidence that testing doesn't reflect your true ability. Not all schools will listen or care, but one might.

Don't plan on transferring. Seriously. This is nothing against you and everyone here will tell you the same thing. There are just too many variable outside of your control that you can't plan for. I'm not saying that transferring is a bad idea... you can certainly try to do it... just don't depend on it. As a rule of thumb go somewhere you would be happy graduating from.

Do you have any great softs? Great work experience? Millitary experience? Any nobel prizes we should know about?

What is your residency?

Note: All of the schools mentioned below are regional and probably won't be able to get you a job in Arizona (except ASU and U of A of course)

ASU--WL/OUT. No one on LSN got in with a 156 last year. But there were a couple WL and IN with people around 157/3.8 But they applied much earlier in the cycle it seems.
U. of A.--WL/OUT. Same reasons.
Santa Clara. WL--People with same LSAT got waitlisted last year. They had worse GPAs but applied earlier. Hard to say. Probably wait-list.
Iowa. WL/IN --def. IN if you are an Iowa resident.
Pepperdine--WL/OUT.
Oregon--WL--hard to say, borderline
Seattle--WL/IN

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:49 pm

Thank u for the advice NorCalBruin. If I really have that much trouble getting into even those schools, then perhaps I would indeed think about holding off (and talking to somebody about it). Im an AZ resident and undergrad at ASU, and my softs are pretty average. I have, however, overcome a significant family tragedy (which I centered my personal statement around). Either way, Im going to at least apply and see what happens, but now I am sooooo confused and uncertain about my future. This sucks.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:53 pm

Edmonds4 wrote:I am fine on school exams, and they've never been an issue. My problem is that when I begin focusing on a specific exam 12 to 15 months in advance, I simply cannot keep it in perspective and I get overwhelmed.. With school exams, I never dwell on any single one because there are a number of them. I just dont think it will be a problem when an exam is only on my mind for a semester or less.

In law school, you will dwell on each exam with more intensity than you did for an entire year's worth of undergrad exams (with the exception of hard science/engineering majors). These single exams will occupy your life for months. The LSAT requires absolutely no memorization and is a nap in the park with a soft blowie and shots of Patron as compared to what you'll face in law school. I'm sorry if this sounds preachy, but preparing for that test is simply drilling yourself on practice tests and figuring out what types of mistakes you repeatedly make based on objectively correct answers. You will not have that luxury in law school, nor will you have the time. In law school, you'll start to panic that you've run out of time a solid two months before you even have your first exam. Sorry for painting this harsh picture, but this is something that you ought to seriously consider.

All that said, please strongly consider a retake. I know people say it over and over and it starts to just sound like a trite, stupid little TLS saying, but do yourself a favor and consider this. Just so you know, I typically tell people who refuse to retake the LSAT with such good GPAs that they should just avoid law school because they won't have what it takes. Most of these people are typically either misled by what they think they'll get out of it (many of those who think they'll be making enough money to get by, let alone those that think they'll make $$$, completely ignore the fact that they can save themselves tens of thousands of dollars at many schools with just a mere 2-3 point increase in their LSAT, which makes me seriously question their judgment/maturity), or naively believe that their "hard work" and "determination" will be more effective for their long-term career options than the relatively miniscule effort it would take to bust out a 4-5 point increase on the LSAT and get into a vastly better school.

Please don't be one of these people - do yourself a favor, take NorCal's advice if you're having anxiety issues, and strongly consider a retake. If the anxiety is what is hurting your scores, that is something you can learn to control. Don't waste your four years of hard work on that beautiful GPA.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:59 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote: but preparing for that test is simply drilling yourself on practice tests and figuring out what types of mistakes you repeatedly make based on objectively correct answers.



FWIW, this is a key to success on most law school exams also.

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NorCalBruin
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby NorCalBruin » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:01 pm

If you are set on staying in Arizona, I wouldn't personally go anywhere on that school list other than ASU or U. of A. ESPECIALLY because you will get in-state-tuition, and because none of those other schools place well in Arizona.

If you didn't include an addendum with your application to those schools I would send them one next week, they'll likely just add it to your application if you ask.

Then, wait and see if you get in to ASU or U of A. I don't know what their policy is on residency, so I'm not sure whether it will help your chances of admission, but it can't hurt. But if you do get in, be prepared to pay at-sticker in state tuition. If you get waitlisted, but sure to send them LOCI.

Good luck.

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:07 pm

NorCalBruin wrote:If you are set on staying in Arizona, I wouldn't personally go anywhere on that school list other than ASU or U. of A. ESPECIALLY because you will get in-state-tuition, and because none of those other schools place well in Arizona.

If you didn't include an addendum with your application to those schools I would send them one next week, they'll likely just add it to your application if you ask.

Then, wait and see if you get in to ASU or U of A. I don't know what their policy is on residency, so I'm not sure whether it will help your chances of admission, but it can't hurt. But if you do get in, be prepared to pay at-sticker in state tuition. If you get waitlisted, but sure to send them LOCI.

Good luck.


Yah, resident tuition and ASU or U of A could be manageable if you can live at home. The top 1/2-1/3 are still getting jobs even ITE.

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:08 pm

flightoftheearls, as far as the quality of schools go, I think you probably would indeed consider me to be naive and misled. The perspectives of many people on this site, compared with those I come into contact with in the real world, are vastly different. I have met numerous lawyers who went to even T3 or T4 schools and are doing really well. So, Im just having a hard time deciphering which perspective is accurate. The perspective of many on this site seems far too grim to me, but obviously I cannot be sure of that... Do you understand my confusion?
Last edited by Edmonds4 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:10 pm

Phoenix Law School places pretty well in Arizona. I know TLS won't agree, but they are a school that is definitely on the rise. I believe that their new building will attract more top students and land them in the top 100 in the next 4 years.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:14 pm

I actually already sent my apps to ASU and UA, and I did include both an LSAT addendum and documentation of my poor SAT score as well...

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:18 pm

Edmonds4 wrote:flightoftheearls, as far as the quality of schools go, I think you probably would indeed consider me to be naive and misled. The perspectives of many people on this site, compared with those I come into contact with in the real world, are vastly different. I have met numerous lawyers who went to even T3 or T4 schools and are doing really well. So, Im just having a hard time deciphering which perspective is accurate. The perspective of many on this site seems far too grim to me, but obviously I cannot be sure of that... Do you understand my confusion?


Back in the day (10 years ago) you could go to a T3 or T4 and have good prospects. The market has become far more elitist in recent years. Also, tuition has gone thru the roof.

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:19 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Phoenix Law School places pretty well in Arizona. I know TLS won't agree, but they are a school that is definitely on the rise. I believe that their new building will attract more top students and land them in the top 100 in the next 4 years.


Yes, the place fairly well for an unranked school that will prob be T4. However, the reason for this is that many of the students there have gone to law school to ADVANCE their career. They have a job lined up from day 1 or have connections in the legal field up the wazzu.

For instance, I have a friend there that has consulted for law firms for decades. None of her former clients in law are going to give a shit about where she went to law school, they are already well acquainted with the high quality of her work and no fancy diploma is necessary as a quality-control measure for a firm that might hire her.

If you are just some random UG and you want a job that will allow you to pay off the debt from PSOL, you need to be in the top 10 people (not %) in the class.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:24 pm

Edmonds4 wrote: I would rather take my chances at a different (perhaps lesser) school and try to transfer. Moreover, Im confident that my work ethic will enable me to do so..


This is a recipe for disappointment. Everyone else in your school will be gunning for top ten percent and transfer prospects, and law school grades and transferring are both very hard to predict. I would not recommend banking on a transfer at all. Only matriculate at a school you'd be completely happy to graduate from.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:25 pm

Veyron wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:Phoenix Law School places pretty well in Arizona. I know TLS won't agree, but they are a school that is definitely on the rise. I believe that their new building will attract more top students and land them in the top 100 in the next 4 years.


Yes, the place fairly well for an unranked school that will prob be T4. However, the reason for this is that many of the students there have gone to law school to ADVANCE their career. They have a job lined up from day 1 or have connections in the legal field up the wazzu.

For instance, I have a friend there that has consulted for law firms for decades. None of her former clients in law are going to give a shit about where she went to law school, they are already well acquainted with the high quality of her work and no fancy diploma is necessary as a quality-control measure for a firm that might hire her.

If you are just some random UG and you want a job that will allow you to pay off the debt from PSOL, you need to be in the top 10 people (not %) in the class.



I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."

Edmonds4
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Edmonds4 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:27 pm

Veyron wrote:
Edmonds4 wrote:flightoftheearls, as far as the quality of schools go, I think you probably would indeed consider me to be naive and misled. The perspectives of many people on this site, compared with those I come into contact with in the real world, are vastly different. I have met numerous lawyers who went to even T3 or T4 schools and are doing really well. So, Im just having a hard time deciphering which perspective is accurate. The perspective of many on this site seems far too grim to me, but obviously I cannot be sure of that... Do you understand my confusion?


Back in the day (10 years ago) you could go to a T3 or T4 and have good prospects. The market has become far more elitist in recent years. Also, tuition has gone thru the roof.

Okay, that makes sense to me.. And I dont MEAN to be naive, Im just trying to cling on to hope after getting my score back on Thursday I suppose..

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DeeCee
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:31 pm

Edmonds4 wrote:I have a 3.84 GPA (4.16 degree GPA), and only a 156 LSAT (which I am NOT retaking). I ultimatley would like to work in Arizona, but in case I do not get into either ASU or UA, what schools would you recommend? With my numbers, do any schools come to mind that typically place well in Arizona? Thank you in advance!


If you are dead set on not retaking, just see what happens when you send in your apps to ASU and UA, like you say you're doing. It can't hurt and if you get in than you can move on with life and save $$ with in-state tuition.

If you don't get in, then start studying hard for the LSAT and RETAKE for sure, and you'll have a year to try for a better score. Also, you could volunteer, or do anything to add great softs to your resume during that year off.

Also, I think looking at Colorado schools is a good idea, like someone else stated, just research where their graduates end up.

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DeeCee
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."


LOL....Candy never stops sending those emails! On a serious note, do not go to Phoenix.

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Veyron
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Re: Schools that place well in Arizona?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:38 pm

DCLaw11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:I was kidding... perhaps I shouldn't have removed the part about them "sending out lots of 'Candy'."


LOL....Candy never stops sending those emails! On a serious note, do not go to Phoenix.


Yah, not even paralegal level experience is enough to land a job of any sort out of there, you really have to have worked in the legal field in some job where you were a lawyer in everything but name. It might also make sense for a developer who needed a legal education to deal with related litigation.




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