Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:24 pm

bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:According to one poster on here, WOW can get you laid at least.


Yes, but when you consider your odds... :P

Getting your dick chopped off and sewn back on can get you into porn, but you don't see me wielding a machete.


And Cooley could hypothetically get you into biglaw.

Where's the machete?

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Reedie
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Reedie » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:30 pm

lisjjen wrote:Where's the machete?


--ImageRemoved--

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Bronte
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:16 pm

If you wanna be in Texas, and you're not from Texas, you should go to UT. If you were from Texas and went to UT for undergrad, you could probably more easily get away with going to Michigan or another northern school. As for the "Michigan in decline" rumor that's infected the 0L community, it's baseless.

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Bosque
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Bosque » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:58 am

Bronte wrote:If you wanna be in Texas, and you're not from Texas, you should go to UT. If you were from Texas and went to UT for undergrad, you could probably more easily get away with going to Michigan or another northern school. As for the "Michigan in decline" rumor that's infected the 0L community, it's baseless.


I wouldn't say baseless. Heavily overblown, yes. But not baseless.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:28 pm

Bosque wrote:I wouldn't say baseless. Heavily overblown, yes. But not baseless.

Oh boy. :roll:

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:41 pm

Look. I know UMich is a hell of a school. A hell of an opportunity. I think everybody knows that. I don't want to grow old thinking I could have made a better choice.

But when a T10 school admits that only about a dozen of their 1Ls can find summer work in an official interview and they don't put out their employment or income stats, that starts to make me feel a little wary. I'm not going to start directly attributing it to a "decline" but when I see an orange diesel truck off-roading in the Silicon Hills with a bunch of 1Ls talking about their summer work on TLS and a fairly transparent employment report, I just start to ask if the extra $70-80k is worth it.

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megaTTTron
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:46 pm

bk1 wrote:
lisjjen wrote:At what point does it stop being this?

And I'm not asking sarcastically. Would T5 be better? Would different T10s, like Penn be better? Texas is just an option, but it's a hell of an option. If not Texas, than Cali.

OK. I just made an executive decision. I want to work in either Texas or Cali when I get out.


I don't think it ever stops being that. Maybe at HYS, but then again I don't think so.

The reason being is that firms don't trust that you won't bolt the moment you get a job elsewhere. They do not trust that you - someone who has never lived there, didn't go to school there, has no family there - have a legitimate desire to work in that place. They believe that they are just a backup to you and being at a better ranked school isn't going to make them any more trusting of you.


This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:52 pm

megaTTTron wrote:This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?


Correct. That's part of why this is a hard decision. I guess one of the legs of my research question here is, what is ultimately better. T10 @ sticker or T11-25 w/scholarship. I don't ask about T11-14 because I would take UT over Cornell any day of the week.

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megaTTTron
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:57 pm

lisjjen wrote:
megaTTTron wrote:This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?


Correct. That's part of why this is a hard decision. I guess one of the legs of my research question here is, what is ultimately better. T10 @ sticker or T11-25 w/scholarship. I don't ask about T11-14 because I would take UT over Cornell any day of the week.


Dude, if you're set on Texas/ SoCal go to Texas/ USC and don't look back. Seriously, with better job prospects in the region and $$ you're set! Just be sure that's the region you want. If so, no shame in going to those schools over a t11 as you say (haha). Also, check out Berkeley for CA if you've got UMich #s.

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Bronte
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Bronte » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:01 pm

lisjjen wrote:Look. I know UMich is a hell of a school. A hell of an opportunity. I think everybody knows that. I don't want to grow old thinking I could have made a better choice.

But when a T10 school admits that only about a dozen of their 1Ls can find summer work in an official interview and they don't put out their employment or income stats, that starts to make me feel a little wary. I'm not going to start directly attributing it to a "decline" but when I see an orange diesel truck off-roading in the Silicon Hills with a bunch of 1Ls talking about their summer work on TLS and a fairly transparent employment report, I just start to ask if the extra $70-80k is worth it.


I can guarantee you that Michigan did not say to anybody that only a dozen 1Ls found summer work. All of the 1L class that wanted legal work got legal work last summer. About 16% of that was paid firm work, which I think you'll find is consistent with its peers for 1L year in this economy. As for the employment report and salary info, this is the first I'm hearing of it. But, last I checked, the TLS wisdom was that school-provided salary and employment info was a farce.

One other problem with the employment report and salary info claim is that it seems not to be true. Michigan does provide employment and income stats: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/factsa ... fault.aspx. Those are for 2007-2009, just like UVA provides: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career ... rvices.htm.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:15 pm

lisjjen wrote:Look. I know UMich is a hell of a school. A hell of an opportunity. I think everybody knows that. I don't want to grow old thinking I could have made a better choice.

But when a T10 school admits that only about a dozen of their 1Ls can find summer work in an official interview and they don't put out their employment or income stats, that starts to make me feel a little wary. I'm not going to start directly attributing it to a "decline" but when I see an orange diesel truck off-roading in the Silicon Hills with a bunch of 1Ls talking about their summer work on TLS and a fairly transparent employment report, I just start to ask if the extra $70-80k is worth it.

Yeah, I also don't know who could have possibly told you that only a dozen 1Ls found summer work. There isn't a person I know who didn't land some sort of legal employment, and the very large majority of them were with prestigious federal agencies/judges or non-profits. Of the small number who actually attempted to land internships with firms, a decent amount were successful. I have no idea what it was like at other peers, but I would imagine it's rather comparable.

As for secondary markets, definitely go to the school in that market if you don't have ties. If you already have strong ties, you'll probably be able to land the firms from slightly lower in your class at UM. I have a couple friends heading to LA from around median, but landing a LA firm at median might not be as easy from USC - you'll have to weigh whether that advantage is worth the extra cost to you. Texas is rather picky and might be a different story, but Michigan can still get you there if you can show a commitment to the area. If you don't end up with the grades for biglaw, however, you might have better luck finding a smaller gig if you're at UT.

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:34 pm

1L Summer Placement:

Every student interviewed said they did not know a single 1L without summer employment, but that the vast majority was non-paying positions. Most said they sent a flood of applications out to firms and public interest venues and few (even those with stellar grades) got bites back from firms. One rising 2L who is near the top of his class said he sent about 150 resume / cover letter packages to New York City firms in December and got only three interviews and one offer.

Official schmofficial. I forgot that it was based off of interviews with current students done by the good folks who write the edited content of TLS.

So what I hear you saying is, these numbers are scary, but not any scarier than other T10's?

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Bronte
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Bronte » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:39 pm

lisjjen wrote:1L Summer Placement:

Every student interviewed said they did not know a single 1L without summer employment, but that the vast majority was non-paying positions. Most said they sent a flood of applications out to firms and public interest venues and few (even those with stellar grades) got bites back from firms. One rising 2L who is near the top of his class said he sent about 150 resume / cover letter packages to New York City firms in December and got only three interviews and one offer.

Official schmofficial. I forgot that it was based off of interviews with current students done by the good folks who write the edited content of TLS.

So what I hear you saying is, these numbers are scary, but not any scarier than other T10's?


I don't know of any evidence that these are scarier than other T10s. As far as I know, 1Ls have traditionally--i.e., before this economy--taken mostly unpaid internships. The official number from Michigan OCS is that 16% of 1Ls (which would be somewhere around 50 students, not a dozen) got paid firm work last year. I don't know that this is any different than peer schools.

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:51 pm

megaTTTron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
megaTTTron wrote:This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?


Correct. That's part of why this is a hard decision. I guess one of the legs of my research question here is, what is ultimately better. T10 @ sticker or T11-25 w/scholarship. I don't ask about T11-14 because I would take UT over Cornell any day of the week.


Dude, if you're set on Texas/ SoCal go to Texas/ USC and don't look back. Seriously, with better job prospects in the region and $$ you're set! Just be sure that's the region you want. If so, no shame in going to those schools over a t11 as you say (haha). Also, check out Berkeley for CA if you've got UMich #s.


I made the stupid mistake of applying almost solely to places that gave me fee waivers. The reason Berkley and UCLA didn't give me fee waivers is they knew I'd probably have less elasticity of demand because I wanted to work in California. aka, they knew better than me what would be a good school for me to go to.

The reason I don't just go ahead and apply now is because part of the cause of my cycle going so well relative to my numbers is that I fired my apps off on October 1. With deadlines quickly approaching, I'd be better off lighting a cigar with that $87.

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megaTTTron
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:31 pm

lisjjen wrote:
megaTTTron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
megaTTTron wrote:This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?


Correct. That's part of why this is a hard decision. I guess one of the legs of my research question here is, what is ultimately better. T10 @ sticker or T11-25 w/scholarship. I don't ask about T11-14 because I would take UT over Cornell any day of the week.


Dude, if you're set on Texas/ SoCal go to Texas/ USC and don't look back. Seriously, with better job prospects in the region and $$ you're set! Just be sure that's the region you want. If so, no shame in going to those schools over a t11 as you say (haha). Also, check out Berkeley for CA if you've got UMich #s.


I made the stupid mistake of applying almost solely to places that gave me fee waivers. The reason Berkley and UCLA didn't give me fee waivers is they knew I'd probably have less elasticity of demand because I wanted to work in California. aka, they knew better than me what would be a good school for me to go to.

The reason I don't just go ahead and apply now is because part of the cause of my cycle going so well relative to my numbers is that I fired my apps off on October 1. With deadlines quickly approaching, I'd be better off lighting a cigar with that $87.


Just apply!

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lisjjen
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:45 pm

.

reversejinx
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby reversejinx » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:18 pm

.
Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:50 pm

reversejinx wrote:
Doritos wrote:For one year then went back to around where they are now. http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999


No. They started at 3rd in US News in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school ... s_Rankings), and was considered on par with HY pre-US News, which is why most attorneys and judges that graduated from law school before 1987 still recognize Michigan's prestige.


Most attorneys and judges recognize Michigan's prestige because it is and always has been a top school. I have never read or heard a credible person put any weight on the one year that Michigan was ranked with HY. For reference, these are the historical rankings:

Image

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Doritos
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Doritos » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:51 pm

reversejinx wrote:
Doritos wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Just curious where you're getting the UMich rankings slipping thing from.


They used to be ranked 2 or 3.


For one year then went back to around where they are now. http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999


No. They started at 3rd in US News in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school ... s_Rankings), and was considered on par with HY pre-US News, which is why most attorneys and judges that graduated from law school before 1987 still recognize Michigan's prestige.


God help UMich grads when those people die. God...help...them...

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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby cornellbeez » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:24 pm

Is this thread an elaborate flame?

16% of 1Ls with PAID firm work is a high percentage for a non-HYS T-14. I know people who worked biglaw abroad and in America, albeit some already had connections (were paralegals, etc.). But still, 16% at paid firms is a high percentage for 1Ls, not that 1L jobs matter much for OCI purposes.

Most of my friends and I got biglaw out of OCI with no legal work experience before law school, and externships with the fed judge and public defender during 1L summer. We didn't work at firms, and firms don't really care. Only boost for 1L firm work is if the firm really liked you 1L summer and gave you an offer, or you have the GPA AND you were a legal assistant for many years with the firm and have someone on the inside willing to vouch for you. My friend at Cornell/Duke/NU who worked for a top firm for 2 years still got dinged at 2L OCI by the firm because of her GPA, despite working for them for 2 years as a legal assistant and having a partner willing to vouch for her.

If you have ties to Texas, you'll be fine out of Michigan. I know someone who got Texas biglaw with ties to the South (state close to Texas), but not Texas, in particular. At OCI you'll most likely get a ton of interviews because people rarely bid on Southern markets.

If you don't have ties to Texas, you're going to be scrutinized heavily unless you go to Texas. The Southern markets, in particular, are very insular. But if you go to Texas, you won't have as much mobility for working in other non-Texas markets, and the Texas markets have fewer SAs than Manhattan/DC, so your odds of landing biglaw in general are lower. It's a trade-off: making ties to Texas (the state) v. having a higher chance of getting a biglaw job at Michigan. You just have to figure out what is more important to you.
Last edited by cornellbeez on Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Burgstaller04
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby Burgstaller04 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:43 pm

to answer OP: I hope so

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drylo
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby drylo » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:49 am

megaTTTron wrote:
bk1 wrote:
lisjjen wrote:At what point does it stop being this?

And I'm not asking sarcastically. Would T5 be better? Would different T10s, like Penn be better? Texas is just an option, but it's a hell of an option. If not Texas, than Cali.

OK. I just made an executive decision. I want to work in either Texas or Cali when I get out.


I don't think it ever stops being that. Maybe at HYS, but then again I don't think so.

The reason being is that firms don't trust that you won't bolt the moment you get a job elsewhere. They do not trust that you - someone who has never lived there, didn't go to school there, has no family there - have a legitimate desire to work in that place. They believe that they are just a backup to you and being at a better ranked school isn't going to make them any more trusting of you.


This. Kids at my CCN who even had connections to SoCal got shut out. There are always exceptions, but on the whole, if you're sure you want to work in X, go to the best school there or HYS. Plus if you're in a UMich, doesn't that mean some $$$ at Texas/USC etc?


Agree with this 100%... except to the extent that people think that a HYS degree transcends the local ties problem. I call BS on that. If you want to go work somewhere specific and do not have any ties to that area, your best hope is to go to school there (at least in the region). The reality is that you have to do well in school no matter where you go, and you have to have some kind of a tie to get a job in just about any particular market.

$$$$$$
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Re: Can UMich take me somewhere warm?

Postby $$$$$$ » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:56 am

lisjjen wrote:Look. I know UMich is a hell of a school. A hell of an opportunity. I think everybody knows that. I don't want to grow old thinking I could have made a better choice.

But when a T10 school admits that only about a dozen of their 1Ls can find summer work in an official interview and they don't put out their employment or income stats, that starts to make me feel a little wary. I'm not going to start directly attributing it to a "decline" but when I see an orange diesel truck off-roading in the Silicon Hills with a bunch of 1Ls talking about their summer work on TLS and a fairly transparent employment report, I just start to ask if the extra $70-80k is worth it.



Most 1L's DO NOT work in firms, very few even hire 1L's anymore unless you are a diversity hire. I applied to over 500 firms from a T-10 school, with a top 5 undergrad business degree and good work experience, and maybe 10 firms told me to send grades. Just very few firms want to give 30K and experience to a kid that is 2 years away from graduating and has OCI coming up.




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