OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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delusional
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:49 pm

kalvano wrote:
delusional wrote:The video games I remember are those handheld LCD screens with a character in a few preprogrammed positions. Like the folding donkey kong, and those Tiger sports games where your football player went beep beep beep all the way down the field.

Anyway, more seriously, folks, I recently went through JR1 at HLS (insane, I know) and I'm thinking that I may, should the opportunity arise, drop the H-bomb, and the "let's move to Boston" bomb, on my wife and kids.

Advice? Suggestions? Financial difference thresholds with the rest of the T14?



"It's fucking HARVARD, woman!"

Yeah, TITCR, but I don't anticipate it going over very well.

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nygrrrl
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:52 pm

delusional, you want a real response or not?
ask specific questions, man.
also, where are you now? why would your wife be averse to moving?

delusional
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:56 pm

nygrrrl wrote:
delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:I love how quickly the old farts thread degenerated into reminiscing about the "good ole days."

Alternatively, you can discuss the family related issue that I raised in my last post.

Would love to but not exactly sure what you were asking. I mean, Boston is a great place to raise a family.... (and BIG congrats on the JR1!!!) - what do you want to know? (I have family there, really thought about BU - investigated options for my fam.)

Dunno, I guess - how reasonable is it to ask my wife and family to leave jobs, etc. To move to Brookline/Boston so that I can chase my dream. Also, leaving my current area, and my wife's job that is perfect in many ways, for a new place and a school that doesn't offer meaningful financial aid... I don't know how that compares to scholarship at a T14 that I can commute to.

For example, how does starting a home from scratch + paying sticker at Harvard compare to Columbia, even @sticker? Or any one of Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Penn, Fordham at the outside with a 30% scholarship?

I think that I'd take Harvard over all of these except maybe big money at Columbia... Is that the right decision?

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nygrrrl
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:00 pm

delusional wrote:Dunno, I guess - how reasonable is it to ask my wife and family to leave jobs, etc. To move to Brookline/Boston so that I can chase my dream. Also, leaving my current area, and my wife's job that is perfect in many ways, for a new place and a school that doesn't offer meaningful financial aid... I don't know how that compares to scholarship at a T14 that I can commute to.

For example, how does starting a home from scratch + paying sticker at Harvard compare to Columbia, even @sticker? Or any one of Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Penn, Fordham at the outside with a 30% scholarship?

I think that I'd take Harvard over all of these except maybe big money at Columbia... Is that the right decision?

OK....
COL at Harvard can be substantially less than Columbia - just in housing, alone. Also, depending on the ages of your kids, you'll probably be better off in Beantown. (Same goes for NYU and Fordham.) I can't speak to Cornell, have limited exposure to Penn. First questions that come to my mind: where are you now? what does your wife do (is it a portable job)? How old are your kids?

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby notanumber » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:05 pm

nygrrrl wrote:
delusional wrote:Dunno, I guess - how reasonable is it to ask my wife and family to leave jobs, etc. To move to Brookline/Boston so that I can chase my dream. Also, leaving my current area, and my wife's job that is perfect in many ways, for a new place and a school that doesn't offer meaningful financial aid... I don't know how that compares to scholarship at a T14 that I can commute to.

For example, how does starting a home from scratch + paying sticker at Harvard compare to Columbia, even @sticker? Or any one of Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Penn, Fordham at the outside with a 30% scholarship?

I think that I'd take Harvard over all of these except maybe big money at Columbia... Is that the right decision?

OK....
COL at Harvard can be substantially less than Columbia - just in housing, alone. Also, depending on the ages of your kids, you'll probably be better off in Beantown. (Same goes for NYU and Fordham.) I can't speak to Cornell, have limited exposure to Penn. First questions that come to my mind: where are you now? what does your wife do (is it a portable job)? How old are your kids?


Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:07 pm

nygrrrl wrote:
delusional wrote:Dunno, I guess - how reasonable is it to ask my wife and family to leave jobs, etc. To move to Brookline/Boston so that I can chase my dream. Also, leaving my current area, and my wife's job that is perfect in many ways, for a new place and a school that doesn't offer meaningful financial aid... I don't know how that compares to scholarship at a T14 that I can commute to.

For example, how does starting a home from scratch + paying sticker at Harvard compare to Columbia, even @sticker? Or any one of Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Penn, Fordham at the outside with a 30% scholarship?

I think that I'd take Harvard over all of these except maybe big money at Columbia... Is that the right decision?

OK....
COL at Harvard can be substantially less than Columbia - just in housing, alone. Also, depending on the ages of your kids, you'll probably be better off in Beantown. (Same goes for NYU and Fordham.) I can't speak to Cornell, have limited exposure to Penn. First questions that come to my mind: where are you now? what does your wife do (is it a portable job)? How old are your kids?

My wife's job is not portable per se. She basically does inside sales and has worked her way up to a decent salary from $12 and hour. I guess she can find someone in her industry in Boston, but not at her current pay, and not with her current hours that allow her to be home when the kids get home from school.

I have a lot of extended family in the NY/NJ area, so that makes any re-arrangement to go to any of the schools I mentioned feasible. For example, I could live in Brooklyn for free during the week, and go home on weekends. Or I could rent an apartment in Philly, and do the same for Upenn. But for HLS, I'd have to move.

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nygrrrl
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:14 pm

delusional wrote:I have a lot of extended family in the NY/NJ area, so that makes any re-arrangement to go to any of the schools I mentioned feasible. For example, I could live in Brooklyn for free during the week, and go home on weekends. Or I could rent an apartment in Philly, and do the same for Upenn. But for HLS, I'd have to move.

If you want to move this to PMs, that's fine by me - I can be more forthright about my situation, as well.

For now... where do you want to practice? Unless you have a strong desire to be in Philly/area, I'd eliminate Penn. (It hurts me to say that - long family history with that school! - but if you can swing NYU/CLS, why Penn?)
If you can get NYU/CLS, eliminate Fordham.
I'm assuming you're in the NYC area (if you could live in B'lyn and go home on wknds) - could your wife look into telecommuting?
(To me, this debate comes down to CLS/NYU/HLS. Have you heard from the 2 NY schools?)

pkt63
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby pkt63 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:15 pm

delusional wrote:
nygrrrl wrote:
delusional wrote:Dunno, I guess - how reasonable is it to ask my wife and family to leave jobs, etc. To move to Brookline/Boston so that I can chase my dream. Also, leaving my current area, and my wife's job that is perfect in many ways, for a new place and a school that doesn't offer meaningful financial aid... I don't know how that compares to scholarship at a T14 that I can commute to.

For example, how does starting a home from scratch + paying sticker at Harvard compare to Columbia, even @sticker? Or any one of Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Penn, Fordham at the outside with a 30% scholarship?

I think that I'd take Harvard over all of these except maybe big money at Columbia... Is that the right decision?

OK....
COL at Harvard can be substantially less than Columbia - just in housing, alone. Also, depending on the ages of your kids, you'll probably be better off in Beantown. (Same goes for NYU and Fordham.) I can't speak to Cornell, have limited exposure to Penn. First questions that come to my mind: where are you now? what does your wife do (is it a portable job)? How old are your kids?

My wife's job is not portable per se. She basically does inside sales and has worked her way up to a decent salary from $12 and hour. I guess she can find someone in her industry in Boston, but not at her current pay, and not with her current hours that allow her to be home when the kids get home from school.

I have a lot of extended family in the NY/NJ area, so that makes any re-arrangement to go to any of the schools I mentioned feasible. For example, I could live in Brooklyn for free during the week, and go home on weekends. Or I could rent an apartment in Philly, and do the same for Upenn. But for HLS, I'd have to move.


Well, you'd have to move, but your family? Not knowing exactly where you live now, seems like you could maybe catch a train or plane home for a quick round trip every few weekends? I realize that my be completely unacceptable, but I have to suggest it, given that I am going to do that. For me, though, I am considering even going to the completely other side of the country...and HLS isn't a huge hub (like NYC is), so I couldn't even get a direct flight home when I do vist. So that may be a no go but I have started the conversation with my husband. Oh, and I don't have kids. Small difference!

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:16 pm

notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:19 pm

pkt63 wrote:

Well, you'd have to move, but your family? Not knowing exactly where you live now, seems like you could maybe catch a train or plane home for a quick round trip every few weekends? I realize that my be completely unacceptable, but I have to suggest it, given that I am going to do that. For me, though, I am considering even going to the completely other side of the country...and HLS isn't a huge hub (like NYC is), so I couldn't even get a direct flight home when I do vist. So that may be a no go but I have started the conversation with my husband. Oh, and I don't have kids. Small difference!

Seriously? That's major dedication, but with children it would go even way beyond that. I'm not sure if the thousands of dollars in travel costs are an added burden, or just a drop in the bucket compared to the regular COA...

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby notanumber » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:24 pm

delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


On the financial end of things, I'd look very closely into how Harvard allocates financial aid. I know that YLS doesn't count real estate or retirement assets against your "total assets" for grant purposes - if HLS is similar then your mortgage combined with savings in a 401k might make you eligible for decent money from them.

For me, when my retirement accounts were put off the table, the amount of aid I expect from YLS made the difference between attending there and at a scholarship school a lot smaller than I expected.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:28 pm

pkt63 wrote: Oh, and I don't have kids. Small difference!

No, sorry - ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE (especially if they're already in school.)

pkt63
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby pkt63 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:31 pm

notanumber wrote:
delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


On the financial end of things, I'd look very closely into how Harvard allocates financial aid. I know that YLS doesn't count real estate or retirement assets against your "total assets" for grant purposes - if HLS is similar then your mortgage combined with savings in a 401k might make you eligible for decent money from them.

For me, when my retirement accounts were put off the table, the amount of aid I expect from YLS made the difference between attending there and at a scholarship school a lot smaller than I expected.


Some schools count your 401(k) assets against you in qualifying for aid? Alarming! I never really expected any need-based aid, but if they count my 401, I'd be expected to pay cash for my entire schooling...I am not ignorant ot the effects of arbitrage, but I am hesitant to completely eliminate my 401(k), esp. because then if I go into PI I could not get the benefit of anyone's LRAP program.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby pkt63 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:33 pm

nygrrrl wrote:
pkt63 wrote: Oh, and I don't have kids. Small difference!

No, sorry - ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE (especially if they're already in school.)


Sarcasm...too subtle I guess

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby notanumber » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:35 pm

pkt63 wrote:
notanumber wrote:
delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


On the financial end of things, I'd look very closely into how Harvard allocates financial aid. I know that YLS doesn't count real estate or retirement assets against your "total assets" for grant purposes - if HLS is similar then your mortgage combined with savings in a 401k might make you eligible for decent money from them.

For me, when my retirement accounts were put off the table, the amount of aid I expect from YLS made the difference between attending there and at a scholarship school a lot smaller than I expected.


Some schools count your 401(k) assets against you in qualifying for aid? Alarming! I never really expected any need-based aid, but if they count my 401, I'd be expected to pay cash for my entire schooling...I am not ignorant ot the effects of arbitrage, but I am hesitant to completely eliminate my 401(k), esp. because then if I go into PI I could not get the benefit of anyone's LRAP program.


They would count it against awarded need-based Grants, not loans. . .

ETA: Read this very closely: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... urces.html

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby sidhesadie » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:43 pm

delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


Here are my concerns:
What are you going to do with your house? Can it be sold (really, be realistic) in the current market? Are you going to attempt being a long distance landlord? (do you know what that really entails?)
What if your wife cannot find a job in the new area? Can you even afford it absent her having a decent job?
What if she can't find a job with flexible hours(frankly unlikely she will currently) Can you afford the then-necessary child care if you are at Harvard?
How attached to their school environments are the kids?
What is the comparative family support situation in the different areas? If you have no family in the area if you're at Harvard, and your wife has to work later hours...that could get dicey.

Most importantly, how does your family feel about it? This should actually be your first consideration. Your wife and kids really ought to occupy a more prestigious position in your calculations than Harvard. JMO.

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bedefan
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby bedefan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:50 pm

delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


Dig around on their financial aid site--it's the best financial aid site I've seen for people with dependents, hands down.

If you're thinking gov't or academia, you may very well qualify for Harvard's extremely generous LRAP, even with some assets. Harvard has an asset protection plan for people with families--I believe it's something like $8k/yr is protected for every year since you graduated undergrad? And certain assets are excluded, I believe... But tho I've got kids I've got no assets (unless you count a 1998 station wagon as an asset), so I didn't pay very close attention to that section...

Anyway, spend the two hours reading Harvard's fin aid stuff. I think you'll be presently surprised.

...And yes to the above poster. What your family wants to do is more important than Harvard's prestige. Infinitely more important.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:52 pm

sidhesadie wrote:
delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


Here are my concerns:
What are you going to do with your house? Can it be sold (really, be realistic) in the current market? Are you going to attempt being a long distance landlord? (do you know what that really entails?)
What if your wife cannot find a job in the new area? Can you even afford it absent her having a decent job?
What if she can't find a job with flexible hours(frankly unlikely she will currently) Can you afford the then-necessary child care if you are at Harvard?
How attached to their school environments are the kids?
What is the comparative family support situation in the different areas? If you have no family in the area if you're at Harvard, and your wife has to work later hours...that could get dicey.

Most importantly, how does your family feel about it? This should actually be your first consideration. Your wife and kids really ought to occupy a more prestigious position in your calculations than Harvard. JMO.

Aaaaand here's the other side. Everything you've raised is exactly what I'm struggling with. I don't want to sell my house. If I do, what will it get me? A one bedroom in Brookline? I guess it will come down to what Columbia and NYU offer. If I don't get much, it will make Harvard more attractive. If I get a decent amount, it will make the decision tougher.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ArghItsBlarg » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:24 pm

delusional wrote: A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


I'm in a nearly identical boat, except all my choices are local to Chicago. We've got some savings socked away which we have because we've been very frugal for the life of our marriage. We also carry no debt outside of our mortgage.

The resultant question becomes (and this something about which it is very difficult to be truthful with ones self): How much about going to the big name school is truly about job prospects, and how much is because it's prestigious? That, of course, segues into "what the hell kind of law do I want to practice" for me, because if I want to be a clerk, for example, you practically have to come from a big name school.

Personally, I couldn't sell my house in this market, but, even if I could, I don't think I could ask my family to move.

pkt63
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby pkt63 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 pm

ArghItsBlarg wrote:
delusional wrote: A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


I'm in a nearly identical boat, except all my choices are local to Chicago. We've got some savings socked away which we have because we've been very frugal for the life of our marriage. We also carry no debt outside of our mortgage.

The resultant question becomes (and this something about which it is very difficult to be truthful with ones self): How much about going to the big name school is truly about job prospects, and how much is because it's prestigious? That, of course, segues into "what the hell kind of law do I want to practice" for me, because if I want to be a clerk, for example, you practically have to come from a big name school.

Personally, I couldn't sell my house in this market, but, even if I could, I don't think I could ask my family to move.


Wow, so good to finally be reading my exact situation in others. Financially, geographically, career-questioningly. I think I am going o love law school and where it takes me, but tough decisions.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:00 pm

delusional wrote:Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.


I think that Harvard and Yale are the only 2 schools where it would be reasonable to do so.

You have other concerns (family issues) that can only be decided by thoughtful discussion with your family, but in my opinion, the cost of attending Harvard should not be a detriment. It isn't just prestige, it is a key that unlocks all the doors. You will still have to do the work to get through those doors, but none of them will be closed to you.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:26 pm

notanumber wrote:
delusional wrote:
notanumber wrote:
Also, what are your career goals? Why are you going to law school? Do you rent or own your house? Do your income and assets make you eligible for aid at Harvard (remembering that retirement accounts and some other assets are counted as partial levels)? etc...

What are everyone's career goals at Harvard? Clerkship, biglaw, judiciary, maybe academia or legislature.

Assets are part of my problem. I own a tiny house that's mortgaged about 65%. I have a few thousand in savings, mutual fund, 401K. A few thousand means maybe 20% of the COA of Harvard for one year. Absent law school, I'd be comfortable right? A house, a nest egg, the beginning of a retirement account. But I got there by being very, very, conservative for the last seven years, and I'm hesitant to burn it and take out $210,000 in loans for three years in school.

As I write that paragraph, I'm kind of re-framing my thought process. If I'm nervous about assets, and numbers merit is something I have in my pocket, maybe it would be silly to squander that in the name of prestige. I should go somewhere where I will maximize the dollar value of those numbers.


On the financial end of things, I'd look very closely into how Harvard allocates financial aid. I know that YLS doesn't count real estate or retirement assets against your "total assets" for grant purposes - if HLS is similar then your mortgage combined with savings in a 401k might make you eligible for decent money from them.

For me, when my retirement accounts were put off the table, the amount of aid I expect from YLS made the difference between attending there and at a scholarship school a lot smaller than I expected.


I believe real estate counts 100% and the retirement funds at 50% in your asset contributions. A lot would depend on the value of the house. I believe the assets are then times 0.5 due to your marriage (though your wife's assets also count in the total asset calculation). It gets a little more complicated from there...

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ssets.html
http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... rried.html

sarahh
Posts: 610
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:36 pm

Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby sarahh » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:06 pm

The Real Jack McCoy wrote:I believe real estate counts 100% and the retirement funds at 50% in your asset contributions. A lot would depend on the value of the house. I believe the assets are then times 0.5 due to your marriage (though your wife's assets also count in the total asset calculation). It gets a little more complicated from there...

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ssets.html
http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... rried.html


Yep, I just finished filling it out. 50% retirement, 100% home equity. For home equity, they go by the current market value, right? I purchased my place for $340,000, have a mortgage of $230,000, and the current market value is $185,000 :cry: , going by recent home sales of comparable units. I assume if you have negative equity than they just have it as zero and don't subtract it from the other assets? It would be nice if they did that. I applied as a loan-only applicant, but the assessed student contribution matters for how much of your loans qualifies for the LRAP.

I have a husband, but no kids, and we are facing a similar dilemma of is it worth it to move for Harvard - or for a full scholarship to Michigan. My husband loves Boston, and I think it will not be too difficult for him to find a job or for us to rent out our place, but the uncertainty is still a bit scray. We would not have to move if I went to Berkeley - I am not sure if it would be crazy to choose Berkeley at sticker over Harvard. (I applied for the matching scholarship, but I know that not that many people get it.) Not having to pay tuition at UMich is very appealing, but it could be difficult for my husband to find a job there.

firemed
Posts: 1195
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:05 pm

@ Delusional, Sarahh, and others:

My personal opinion is that your best choice is, every time, the T10 that gives you the biggest scholarship (With the exception of HYS). So for sarahh, I would say to take the U of M scholarship.

But to delusional I would say this (and this is all personal opinion): Go to Harvard. Seriously. Are you aware of the opportunities available there? One poster on here talks about how he has Supreme Court Justices just drop in and answer questions and lead classes. They shape legal education, policy, and decisions with their law review... for the country and to a lesser degree the entire world. They are probably one of the few schools in the country that you can finish bottom third and still get a job. I would, not kidding, shoot my mom in the foot to go there. I would cut off a finger and several toes too. My wife would understand. Even if she couldn't get a job there, she would be happy to find some opportunity (going back to school, etc) that would give her something to do there. It would be profoundly expensive, but the opportunities you have afterwards would be amazing. Have you ever secretly held a desire to be president, supreme court justice, or a senator? Harvard gives you those opportunities. Fordham, realistically, doesn't. Now you could make the argument that Columbia does the same, as does any of the T10... but still I would take Harvard over Columbia any day. COL is lower there if nothing else if you decide commuting is too much.

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kalvano
Posts: 11728
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby kalvano » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:46 pm

A little off-topic, but a question for Jazz and others who have been through OCI - I was talking with the hiring partners from a couple of local firms, and they indicated that older students with other work experience were preferred. These were smaller firms, but they still pay market or close to it. By smaller, I mean 25-45 lawyers. When you say older students are at a disadvantage, is that strictly for Biglaw firms?

It seemed as if they preferred older people because they didn't need as much hand-holding and had worked a real job before, so they felt they could get going more easily. I'm assuming in a smaller firm like that, you do less shit work and are expected to do more sooner.

Thoughts?




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