OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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sidhesadie
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby sidhesadie » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:17 pm

ArghItsBlarg wrote:We already live in the north burbs of Chicago. We're not moving anywhere for my school, so she wouldn't be looking in an unfamiliar city, just a city that hasn't had any leads in her industry in a few years. She wants to work and, prior to being laid off, had worked happily for 10 years, but she has social anxiety and can't stand interviewing and the constant rejection of a job search.

We both believe that our son has received tremendous benefit, academically and socially, from his time in daycare (at Montessouri) and so we want him to stay there. My wife would love to stay home with the baby, but we can't afford to keep him in daycare on just my salary, so she has to put the baby into part-time day care to work to be able to afford to put our son in daycare. We're aware of the ridiculousness of the situation. Even were my wife able to stay home full time with the baby, we'd eventually start looking toward putting her into a daycare situation around toddlerhood so she could get those same benefits our son got.

As far as the tradeoff, in this magical theoretical world in my head, if my wife found a FT job and NU gave me a decent scholarship, that would mean that 1) I could help with the kids in the morning; 2) we'd go to school/work respectively; 3) she'd pick up the kids from school and 4) I'd be home in advance of dinner and we'd have the night as a family. This would last for only 3 years and then I'd be (ostensibly) working again. We'd have some debt.



Ohhh kay, see, I did misunderstand, I was thinking NU would mean a huge move.
I think that if you can get an NU scholarship and your wife can find work that doesn't make her want to kill you while you sleep, this is a very feasible option that will end up better for you guys in the long run.

kent99
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby kent99 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:15 pm

Hi, all
will be 34 when I start this fall.

would like your opinion on the following. . . .

1. up-root 2 kids and SO to get a full-ride at a tier 3, then move back home

or

2. stay and go $90,000 in debt at a tier 2 in an area we probably want to end up in

And are all of these reports about there being no law jobs making anyone else nervous?? Sure is making my SO nervous and less-than-enthusiastic about the whole thing. . . .

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:21 pm

kent99 wrote:Hi, all
will be 34 when I start this fall.

would like your opinion on the following. . . .

1. up-root 2 kids and SO to get a full-ride at a tier 3, then move back home

or

2. stay and go $90,000 in debt at a tier 2 in an area we probably want to end up in

And are all of these reports about there being no law jobs making anyone else nervous?? Sure is making my SO nervous and less-than-enthusiastic about the whole thing. . . .

That's tough to answer without knowing which T2. For example, I know of quite a few folks who worked hard at SMU and got terrific jobs through OCI. Other T2s may not place as well. You'll probably get better advice if you just state the specific schools you're comparing.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:34 pm

kent99 wrote:Hi, all
will be 34 when I start this fall.

would like your opinion on the following. . . .

1. up-root 2 kids and SO to get a full-ride at a tier 3, then move back home

or

2. stay and go $90,000 in debt at a tier 2 in an area we probably want to end up in

And are all of these reports about there being no law jobs making anyone else nervous?? Sure is making my SO nervous and less-than-enthusiastic about the whole thing. . . .


Full ride will still have COL you have to borrow for, so maybe the cost gap won't be so large, and you will have a much better shot at getting a job back home. Maybe you can negotiate some more aid out of the local school?

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:24 am

kent99 wrote:Hi, all
will be 34 when I start this fall.

would like your opinion on the following. . . .

1. up-root 2 kids and SO to get a full-ride at a tier 3, then move back home

or

2. stay and go $90,000 in debt at a tier 2 in an area we probably want to end up in

And are all of these reports about there being no law jobs making anyone else nervous?? Sure is making my SO nervous and less-than-enthusiastic about the whole thing. . . .


Generally speaking, the T2. Of course, if we had names of the T2 and the T3, that would help as Jazz pointed out. Also, could you negotiate at the T2 for $$$ using the scholly from the T3 or a similarly ranked T2?

legal10101
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby legal10101 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:04 pm

firemed wrote:
kent99 wrote:Hi, all
will be 34 when I start this fall.

would like your opinion on the following. . . .

1. up-root 2 kids and SO to get a full-ride at a tier 3, then move back home

or

2. stay and go $90,000 in debt at a tier 2 in an area we probably want to end up in

And are all of these reports about there being no law jobs making anyone else nervous?? Sure is making my SO nervous and less-than-enthusiastic about the whole thing. . . .


Generally speaking, the T2. Of course, if we had names of the T2 and the T3, that would help as Jazz pointed out. Also, could you negotiate at the T2 for $$$ using the scholly from the T3 or a similarly ranked T2?


From every attorney I have spoken to, the recommendation is to go to school in the market you want to end up in.

delusional
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:30 pm

So I dunno if I should start a new topic or post this here...

I'm really uptight about finances, because I'll be leaving my job, and I have a wife and two kids. I think that we may be able to scrape by if I get a decent scholly, but that's a big if, and while I'm not a high maintenance guy, I can't cut back on behalf of my family (nor do I want to).

I got offered a part time job in the evenings and weekends. My regular hours are M-F 9-5:30, this would be from 5:30 to ten, and maybe all day Sunday. On one hand, I'm tempted to take it - it would allow me to add a nest egg of $5-7,000, which would basically almost double my savings. OTOH, it would mean I would literally be at work from 9 - 10 six days a week. So I think I can live without it. And then I think, would I rather miss a mortgage payment next november because of this? Then I think, Okay, I'll borrow a little more. Then i think, but if I'm EXPECTING to have to borrow more, what am I going to do about UNEXPECTED expenses?

Kna' mean?

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DocHawkeye
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby DocHawkeye » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:33 pm

delusional wrote:So I dunno if I should start a new topic or post this here...

I'm really uptight about finances, because I'll be leaving my job, and I have a wife and two kids. I think that we may be able to scrape by if I get a decent scholly, but that's a big if, and while I'm not a high maintenance guy, I can't cut back on behalf of my family (nor do I want to).

I got offered a part time job in the evenings and weekends. My regular hours are M-F 9-5:30, this would be from 5:30 to ten, and maybe all day Sunday. On one hand, I'm tempted to take it - it would allow me to add a nest egg of $5-7,000, which would basically almost double my savings. OTOH, it would mean I would literally be at work from 9 - 10 six days a week. So I think I can live without it. And then I think, would I rather miss a mortgage payment next november because of this? Then I think, Okay, I'll borrow a little more. Then i think, but if I'm EXPECTING to have to borrow more, what am I going to do about UNEXPECTED expenses?

Kna' mean?


I do know what you mean. I lived on borrowed money the first time I went to grad school and I won't do it again. Even though the ABA and every law school in America advises against it, I will be working as a 1L. I have a Ph.D. so I'm pretty sure I can handle a grad school work load plus teaching a course or two at the local community college (or in my universitiy's music department).
Last edited by DocHawkeye on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:34 pm

DocHawkeye wrote:
I do know what you mean. I lived on borroed money the first time I went to grad school and I won't do it again. Even though the ABA and every law school in America advises against it, I will be working as a 1L. I have a Ph.D. so I'm pretty sure I can handle a grad school work load plus teaching a course or two at the local community college (or in my universitiy's music department).


Just remember if the school you are going to offer need-based grants (and you get them) you may lose some of the grants due to the increased income.

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:37 pm

delusional wrote:So I dunno if I should start a new topic or post this here...

I'm really uptight about finances, because I'll be leaving my job, and I have a wife and two kids. I think that we may be able to scrape by if I get a decent scholly, but that's a big if, and while I'm not a high maintenance guy, I can't cut back on behalf of my family (nor do I want to).

I got offered a part time job in the evenings and weekends. My regular hours are M-F 9-5:30, this would be from 5:30 to ten, and maybe all day Sunday. On one hand, I'm tempted to take it - it would allow me to add a nest egg of $5-7,000, which would basically almost double my savings. OTOH, it would mean I would literally be at work from 9 - 10 six days a week. So I think I can live without it. And then I think, would I rather miss a mortgage payment next november because of this? Then I think, Okay, I'll borrow a little more. Then i think, but if I'm EXPECTING to have to borrow more, what am I going to do about UNEXPECTED expenses?

Kna' mean?


If you're applying to a full time program, you need to check the school's requirements. The ABA limits first year students to working a max of 20 hours per week, and many schools have more stringent limitations.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:47 pm

Iconoclast wrote:
If you're applying to a full time program, you need to check the school's requirements. The ABA limits first year students to working a max of 20 hours per week, and many schools have more stringent limitations.


The last time I read it, the language from ABA is around "strongly recommend/suggest". It was not a prohibition.

keg411
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby keg411 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:58 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Iconoclast wrote:
If you're applying to a full time program, you need to check the school's requirements. The ABA limits first year students to working a max of 20 hours per week, and many schools have more stringent limitations.


The last time I read it, the language from ABA is around "strongly recommend/suggest". It was not a prohibition.


Some schools do prohibit it and you have to sign a contract. When you decide where you want to go, I would strongly suggest checking with the school first.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:12 pm

delusional wrote:So I dunno if I should start a new topic or post this here...

I'm really uptight about finances, because I'll be leaving my job, and I have a wife and two kids. I think that we may be able to scrape by if I get a decent scholly, but that's a big if, and while I'm not a high maintenance guy, I can't cut back on behalf of my family (nor do I want to).

I got offered a part time job in the evenings and weekends. My regular hours are M-F 9-5:30, this would be from 5:30 to ten, and maybe all day Sunday. On one hand, I'm tempted to take it - it would allow me to add a nest egg of $5-7,000, which would basically almost double my savings. OTOH, it would mean I would literally be at work from 9 - 10 six days a week. So I think I can live without it. And then I think, would I rather miss a mortgage payment next november because of this? Then I think, Okay, I'll borrow a little more. Then i think, but if I'm EXPECTING to have to borrow more, what am I going to do about UNEXPECTED expenses?

Kna' mean?


If you don't want to hear a long rant, just ignore this. But if you wanna hear what I think about debt, working beforehand, etc.... read on.

First thing, I think you should take the job and save up.

Secondly, um.... the part that worries me here is the part where you say you don't want to cut back on behalf of your family.

I understand wanting to continue financing certain things for your kids (for instance, soccer and dance lessons will still happen for my kiddo- though less frequently than she would like or has become accustomed to, and health insurance for the kid as well, etc.)...

But other than things like that, you and your wife (and to a lesser extent, your kids) have two choices now: live like a student in grad school.... or like a student for 25 years after grad school.

Personally I am going to work an average of 110 hours a week in June, July, and August. Does this mean I won't see my kid? Yup. In addition to the above I plan to work 4-8 hours a week my 1L year, and more during my 2L and 3L years. Of course, my wife will continue to work 24 hours a week and take student loans for her education... though, thank goodness, her loans will be less than $10K a year. We are also getting rid of cable TV, switching our cell phone plan to the cheapest available, paying off the cars, paying off all our credit cards, turning the heat down to 66 during the winter, buying all of our food from the grocery store except for our once a week splurge, going down to only liability insurance, using my mother for daycare instead of paying, not purchasing any new furniture, making a strict $40 limit on holiday gifts and $20 limit on birthdays, not taking any vacations, trading in all our children's old clothing for store credit at the second hand children's clothing store so we can get her more from there when she grows, purchasing coats, glasses, dental fillings, contacts, suits, new flooring, half a cow, etc. all now so we won't have to purchase any of them during the next three years. We are also planning to try to qualify for food stamps, medicaid, etc.

I figure the three years of being poor will suck... but not as much as not being able to help my kid go to college because I am still making obscene payments on my law school education in 15 years. Or even worse, living the above lifestyle in 10 years because my loan payments are too high. My dad graduated from grad school almost 15 years ago. He still sends almost a grand a month to his loans... and he gets to drive the car he purchased in 1988 to the post office to mail those.... before heading to the local dental school for his fillings and cleanings, and then off to the thrift store to purchase a new shirt to replace the used one that wore out only a month after he bought it.


/rant

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:13 pm

keg411 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Iconoclast wrote:
If you're applying to a full time program, you need to check the school's requirements. The ABA limits first year students to working a max of 20 hours per week, and many schools have more stringent limitations.


The last time I read it, the language from ABA is around "strongly recommend/suggest". It was not a prohibition.


Some schools do prohibit it and you have to sign a contract. When you decide where you want to go, I would strongly suggest checking with the school first.


Thanks, any idea which ones in T14?

delusional
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:34 pm

firemed wrote:
If you don't want to hear a long rant, just ignore this. But if you wanna hear what I think about debt, working beforehand, etc.... read on.

First thing, I think you should take the job and save up.

Secondly, um.... the part that worries me here is the part where you say you don't want to cut back on behalf of your family.

I understand wanting to continue financing certain things for your kids (for instance, soccer and dance lessons will still happen for my kiddo- though less frequently than she would like or has become accustomed to, and health insurance for the kid as well, etc.)...

But other than things like that, you and your wife (and to a lesser extent, your kids) have two choices now: live like a student in grad school.... or like a student for 25 years after grad school.

Personally I am going to work an average of 110 hours a week in June, July, and August. Does this mean I won't see my kid? Yup. In addition to the above I plan to work 4-8 hours a week my 1L year, and more during my 2L and 3L years. Of course, my wife will continue to work 24 hours a week and take student loans for her education... though, thank goodness, her loans will be less than $10K a year. We are also getting rid of cable TV, switching our cell phone plan to the cheapest available, paying off the cars, paying off all our credit cards, turning the heat down to 66 during the winter, buying all of our food from the grocery store except for our once a week splurge, going down to only liability insurance, using my mother for daycare instead of paying, not purchasing any new furniture, making a strict $40 limit on holiday gifts and $20 limit on birthdays, not taking any vacations, trading in all our children's old clothing for store credit at the second hand children's clothing store so we can get her more from there when she grows, purchasing coats, glasses, dental fillings, contacts, suits, new flooring, half a cow, etc. all now so we won't have to purchase any of them during the next three years. We are also planning to try to qualify for food stamps, medicaid, etc.

I figure the three years of being poor will suck... but not as much as not being able to help my kid go to college because I am still making obscene payments on my law school education in 15 years. Or even worse, living the above lifestyle in 10 years because my loan payments are too high. My dad graduated from grad school almost 15 years ago. He still sends almost a grand a month to his loans... and he gets to drive the car he purchased in 1988 to the post office to mail those.... before heading to the local dental school for his fillings and cleanings, and then off to the thrift store to purchase a new shirt to replace the used one that wore out only a month after he bought it.


/rant

Wow. I guess I should take an example from you to an extent. I see you also know where I'm coming from, if you can't take your kid's dance and soccer away.

But not every detail is the same. My wife works essentially a forty hour week. That will make it easier to live when I'm in school, and harder to leave everything on her shoulders. Also, everyone's family dynamic is different. Law school was pretty much something I sprung on everybody, and while they've been supportive, it's not necessarily something they signed up for.

Also, I'm talking five-seven Gs over the next few months. I will not continue working like that in LS because I will be commuting, and it will be utterly impossible. If I'm planning to borrow $150,000 anyway, how much can I expect my family to sacrifice to avoid spending that last five?

But I totally get what you're saying. My parents are dirt poor in their own way, but one of the things that really gives me a kick in the pants as far as career pursuit is that episode on Scrubs when JD's father comes to town and they get on each others nerves for a few days before the father leaves, and then JD realizes that his dad was only trying to save money and dignity in front of his kid.

Man, this really has become a thread for old people.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:49 pm

delusional wrote:Wow. I guess I should take an example from you to an extent. I see you also know where I'm coming from, if you can't take your kid's dance and soccer away.

But not every detail is the same. My wife works essentially a forty hour week. That will make it easier to live when I'm in school, and harder to leave everything on her shoulders. Also, everyone's family dynamic is different. Law school was pretty much something I sprung on everybody, and while they've been supportive, it's not necessarily something they signed up for.

Also, I'm talking five-seven Gs over the next few months. I will not continue working like that in LS because I will be commuting, and it will be utterly impossible. If I'm planning to borrow $150,000 anyway, how much can I expect my family to sacrifice to avoid spending that last five?

But I totally get what you're saying. My parents are dirt poor in their own way, but one of the things that really gives me a kick in the pants as far as career pursuit is that episode on Scrubs when JD's father comes to town and they get on each others nerves for a few days before the father leaves, and then JD realizes that his dad was only trying to save money and dignity in front of his kid.

Man, this really has become a thread for old people.


Yes.... we are all old. It is my birthday tomorrow, and I kinda want to cry.

In any case, your situation is very different than I assumed. I apologize for the rant.

I guess if you are looking at the difference between $150K and $155K it doesn't really matter. At that point time with family probably is worth it. I take it you lack a scholly?

delusional
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby delusional » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:55 pm

firemed wrote:
Yes.... we are all old. It is my birthday tomorrow, and I kinda want to cry.

In any case, your situation is very different than I assumed. I apologize for the rant.

I guess if you are looking at the difference between $150K and $155K it doesn't really matter. At that point time with family probably is worth it. I take it you lack a scholly?

Don't apologize, a little extra encouragement never hurt anyone.

As of now, I lack an acceptance. I have good numbers, but I applied late, so I don't really know what the possibilities are. If I get zero, I will probably apply again September 1st, and also prepare to be more geographically flexible. If I get $50,000 - $75,000 I will agonize, and probably end up going this Spetember. That's where the money would make the biggest difference, and it seems like the most likely scenario.

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:07 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Iconoclast wrote:
If you're applying to a full time program, you need to check the school's requirements. The ABA limits first year students to working a max of 20 hours per week, and many schools have more stringent limitations.


The last time I read it, the language from ABA is around "strongly recommend/suggest". It was not a prohibition.


Actually, it is one of the rules for accreditation.

Standard 304
(f) A student may not be employed more than 20 hours per week in any week in which the student is enrolled in more than twelve class hours.


Here's a link to the relevant standards: http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf
So if it is an ABA accredited school, you can't work more than 20 hours. Most schools will either prohibit or strongly recommend against working at all, but none of them can allow you to work over 20.

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:17 pm

Just wanted to add... I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to let you know what the rules are so that you can plan accordingly.

I'm in a part time program specifically because I couldn't afford to quit working to go to school and a part time program was the only way to get around the restriction. I suppose I could have asked for cost of living adjustments and got mega loans, but that wasn't an option I was willing to take.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:23 pm

Thanks for the link. I wasn't clear, I was only stating it does not prohibit employment less than 20 hours. I'd much rather no work the first year. I am working on scholarship negotiations, so maybe I won't have to. I will look for part-time work as TA, instructor at CC, and/or consultant(if my schedule allows).

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:38 pm

delusional wrote:Don't apologize, a little extra encouragement never hurt anyone.

As of now, I lack an acceptance. I have good numbers, but I applied late, so I don't really know what the possibilities are. If I get zero, I will probably apply again September 1st, and also prepare to be more geographically flexible. If I get $50,000 - $75,000 I will agonize, and probably end up going this Spetember. That's where the money would make the biggest difference, and it seems like the most likely scenario.



Good luck. Hope you gets rockin $$$.

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haus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby haus » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:03 am

Iconoclast wrote:So if it is an ABA accredited school, you can't work more than 20 hours. Most schools will either prohibit or strongly recommend against working at all, but none of them can allow you to work over 20.


I believe that this only applies to FT programs, and I suspect that the effort put into enforcement is likely very little. I have never heard of a students time sheets being collected from their jobs with private companies.

-edit-

From the outside looking in a PT student working 40-50 hrs/week is likely putting in more time then a FT student working 20 hrs/week. This is not evening taking into consideration that the PT student is more likely to have family obligations to join into the work/school mix.
Last edited by haus on Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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nygrrrl
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:11 am

Iconoclast wrote:Actually, it is one of the rules for accreditation.

Standard 304
(f) A student may not be employed more than 20 hours per week in any week in which the student is enrolled in more than twelve class hours.


Here's a link to the relevant standards: http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf
So if it is an ABA accredited school, you can't work more than 20 hours. Most schools will either prohibit or strongly recommend against working at all, but none of them can allow you to work over 20.

This. Like Icono, I am doing a PT program and working FT. I don't relish being in school for 4 years, but coming out with little or no debt (and who am I kidding - I support my family!) is worth it. FTR, I have many friends in FT programs... and I can't begin to imagine working more than 20 hrs/wk while in FT. I mean... I can't imagine. Most definitely not with a family.

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haus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby haus » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:48 am

@nygrrrl

At your school, how many nights per week did/do you attend classes per week as a 1L?

(Also open to answers from any other PT students...)

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:15 am

haus wrote:
Iconoclast wrote:So if it is an ABA accredited school, you can't work more than 20 hours. Most schools will either prohibit or strongly recommend against working at all, but none of them can allow you to work over 20.


I believe that this only applies to FT programs, and I suspect that the effort put into enforcement is likely very little. I have never heard of a students time sheets being collected from their jobs with private companies.

-edit-

From the outside looking in a PT student working 40-50 hrs/week is likely putting in more time then a FT student working 20 hrs/week. This is not evening taking into consideration that the PT student is more likely to have family obligations to join into the work/school mix.


You are correct. I take about 5 hours less (2 classes - the actual number of credit hours varies by 1 from semester to semester) than the full time students and in return, I work 40 hours per week. I doubt that many full time students devote 20 hours per week to any single class - so it's certainly a detriment. My part time class is divided into roughly equal thirds between people who work full time, part time, and not at all. I seriously considered dropping down to 30 hours per week at work to keep my benefits and have more time, but with a kid about to start college and another one a couple years behind her, I decided I couldn't do it. So I just don't sleep much. :)

You're also correct about it only applying to full time students. The ABA doesn't care about you unless you're taking 12 hours or more per semester. My program is 11 hours.




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