OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:31 pm

About the long commute... I can relate. Mine falls between 1 and 1.5 hours each way depending on traffic. Those 10-15 hours each week really take a toll when you add them on to a busy law school schedule.

For the first part of the semester it wasn't so bad. I've always used my commute as "me time" to listen to my local sports station - and that is important when fighting off stress/burnout. However, when it got closer to finals or an important due date (memo) I really missed those hours.

Audio supplements are one way to try to recapture the time. If I didn't have a commute, I probably wouldn't mess with them... but since I'm trapped in the car anyway, I found them to be helpful.

Another problem caused by a long commute is that there will occasionally be activities on the weekend that you would like to attend (even an antisocial grumpy old bastard like me is interested in some of them) - but when you're looking at an extra 2-3 hours of car time on top of the event you may find yourself deciding that it's just not worth it.

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LilMonsterAnnie
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby LilMonsterAnnie » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:55 pm

oldhippie wrote:
dj666 wrote:Thanks to all for the well wishes. It's been a great year so far.

On a side note, the baby sleeps through the night. Awesome miraculous.and unbelievably lucky!!

FTFY :mrgreen:

BLin98
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby BLin98 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:24 pm

LilMonsterAnnie wrote:
oldhippie wrote:
dj666 wrote:Thanks to all for the well wishes. It's been a great year so far.

On a side note, the baby sleeps through the night. Awesome miraculous.and unbelievably lucky!!

FTFY :mrgreen:


Mine has slept through the night since he was two weeks old. Sometimes on weekends he tries to sleep in and we wake him up because we want to play with him.

Three hours on a bus/train a day to knock out reading would be great. I wish I lived somewhere with non-abysmal public transportation.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:48 am

BLin98 wrote:
LilMonsterAnnie wrote:
oldhippie wrote:
dj666 wrote:Thanks to all for the well wishes. It's been a great year so far.

On a side note, the baby sleeps through the night. Awesome miraculous.and unbelievably lucky!!

FTFY :mrgreen:


Mine has slept through the night since he was two weeks old. Sometimes on weekends he tries to sleep in and we wake him up because we want to play with him.

Three hours on a bus/train a day to knock out reading would be great. I wish I lived somewhere with non-abysmal public transportation.




I hate you both with a passion right now. :mrgreen:

Mine wouldn't sleep through the night until she was almost a year old. Brutal, just brutal.

Though, I hear that the next one is always opposite of the first. Please let it be true.

fflewddur
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby fflewddur » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:22 am

firemed wrote:Okay I know this is 3 in a row, but..... I figure you guys will understand better than anyone else:


Oh gawd.... I got into L&C with a scholly that makes the tuition only about $20K a year.


Okay:

I know it will be a total bitch to sell my house.

I have heard the legal market in Oregon is overloaded.

I know that I have contacts and help here that make it worth staying here.

I know that it will be hard for my wife to get a job there.

I know that rent will be much higher than my current mortgage.

I know it will be cheaper (much cheaper) to stay in NM.

BUT I WANT TO GO THERE!!!!!!!!

I have wanted my whole life to live in Oregon. I am tired of NM for so many reasons. And I think I could get them to up the scholly for me.


FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!


Then go, dude. :)

Have you heard that the Oregon legal market is overloaded in 2014? Who knows what'll be like then? And you don't have to stay in Oregon after graduation if you don't want to. Yeah, I know, it's easier to get a job in the region where you go to school, but there's more mobility than there was in the pre-internet age and any accredited degree can travel if you make it. You're not a freshly minted graduate with no worldly experience... you know how to send out résumés, how to interview, how to work for and find a job.

You're making excuses not to go to Lewis and Clark, right now. Legitimate challenges -- absolutely, but you knew this stuff before you applied, right? Can you rent out the house, or how hard is selling really going to be? Can you live apart from the spouse for a few months while job searching and house selling happens? Can you research the Portland and surrounding areas for affordable home options (towards Salem is cheaper, I think, and the public transit in that area is pretty good)? Find out. Get the real, solid data and make a call.

Anyway, you gave six reasons why it'll maybe be harder to go to school in Oregon that New Mexico. If it's important, go make some reasons why it'll work in Oregon. If you can't find those reasons, you'll probably at least be happier with a decision to stay in New Mexico.

There's nothing wrong with staying in New Mexico, of course, but if you really want to move to Oregon I would guess you'll only find it more difficult after law school than before.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:37 pm

fflewddur wrote:Then go, dude. :)

Have you heard that the Oregon legal market is overloaded in 2014? Who knows what'll be like then? And you don't have to stay in Oregon after graduation if you don't want to. Yeah, I know, it's easier to get a job in the region where you go to school, but there's more mobility than there was in the pre-internet age and any accredited degree can travel if you make it. You're not a freshly minted graduate with no worldly experience... you know how to send out résumés, how to interview, how to work for and find a job.

You're making excuses not to go to Lewis and Clark, right now. Legitimate challenges -- absolutely, but you knew this stuff before you applied, right? Can you rent out the house, or how hard is selling really going to be? Can you live apart from the spouse for a few months while job searching and house selling happens? Can you research the Portland and surrounding areas for affordable home options (towards Salem is cheaper, I think, and the public transit in that area is pretty good)? Find out. Get the real, solid data and make a call.

Anyway, you gave six reasons why it'll maybe be harder to go to school in Oregon that New Mexico. If it's important, go make some reasons why it'll work in Oregon. If you can't find those reasons, you'll probably at least be happier with a decision to stay in New Mexico.

There's nothing wrong with staying in New Mexico, of course, but if you really want to move to Oregon I would guess you'll only find it more difficult after law school than before.


I hear you. Basically what it will come down to is scholarship money. No matter where I move, there is only a certain amount more of debt I am willing to take on. So if they can lower the COA some more for me when I negotiate.... then I am going there.

I'm hoping for the best.

ArghItsBlarg
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ArghItsBlarg » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:04 pm

So I’m beginning to experience some anxiety. Novel ahead. I don’t know that I expect any of you to offer advice, or even read the whole damn thing, but I want to get this out.

The worst part of all this is that I know the correct thing to do, chill out and wait another month. But my stupid brain won’t listen to my stupid self, so I just keep thinking up new contingencies. The problem is exactly what I thought: $$$$ (likely full ride) at a part-time T2 vs (likely) sticker at (full time only) a T14.

Essentially what it comes down to is that I support my family. I work full time. My wife’s part time salary is enough to keep our kids in part-time Montessouri, but that’s about all it covers. My salary pays our mortgage/bills and puts food on the table. In the seven months since I decided that I wanted to go to law school, it was always understood between my wife and I that I would continue to work and support the family while I went to law school at night. She would be begrudgingly okay with acting as a single parent for the four years until I graduated (I’m going to be gone from 7:15am - ~10pm four nights/week). We’re very debt-averse people who paid off our UG student loans within 2 years of graduation, bought our cars for cash and pay off our credit card debt every month.

Here’s the thing: I already have a 66% scholarship to the T2 I want to attend, with strong expectations of a 100% scholarship in a few months’ time. This means essentially free law school. I have a job that puts me in consistent contact with attorneys all over my practice area in firms big and small, and I’ll have over ten years of experience as a legal assistant by the time I graduate. Assuming I do as well as I hope/plan to do, I’m going to be a pretty damn strong job candidate come graduation. So the smart plan would seem to be to go to school for free and graduate high.

But on the other hand, I got into NU and I stand at least a theoretical chance of getting some money there (won’t know until early March). And, come on, it’s freaking Northwestern, that’s really hard to pass up. Should I get no money at all from them, I can say that I’ll withdraw, but I apparently I’m an optimist because I really think that I could come away with money.

So here’s me in my head going in circles wondering:
1) how much money at NU would counterbalance a full ride at a T2, given the absolute crap that is this current job economy? I keep saying I don’t want biglaw, but it’s the hours I don’t want.

2) how in the hell could I manage to go to school full time? A year after being laid off with no job prospects in sight, my wife and I agreed that she’d become more of a stay-at-home and I’d bring home the bacon. If she could find a full time job with benefits, that could change things, but it’s really not likely.

3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick.

Being grown up sucks sometimes. The moreso because, as I said first thing, I know I need to chill out about this. My worry is that my (educated) guesses regarding admissions/money have been spot-on this entire cycle, however, so I guess I feel that not trying to plan ahead is just burying my head in the sand.

Sorry for the wall of text, but, well, you were warned.

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lolschool2011
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby lolschool2011 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:17 pm

ArghItsBlarg wrote:So I’m beginning to experience some anxiety. Novel ahead. I don’t know that I expect any of you to offer advice, or even read the whole damn thing, but I want to get this out.

The worst part of all this is that I know the correct thing to do, chill out and wait another month. But my stupid brain won’t listen to my stupid self, so I just keep thinking up new contingencies. The problem is exactly what I thought: $$$$ (likely full ride) at a part-time T2 vs (likely) sticker at (full time only) a T14.

Essentially what it comes down to is that I support my family. I work full time. My wife’s part time salary is enough to keep our kids in part-time Montessouri, but that’s about all it covers. My salary pays our mortgage/bills and puts food on the table. In the seven months since I decided that I wanted to go to law school, it was always understood between my wife and I that I would continue to work and support the family while I went to law school at night. She would be begrudgingly okay with acting as a single parent for the four years until I graduated (I’m going to be gone from 7:15am - ~10pm four nights/week). We’re very debt-averse people who paid off our UG student loans within 2 years of graduation, bought our cars for cash and pay off our credit card debt every month.

Here’s the thing: I already have a 66% scholarship to the T2 I want to attend, with strong expectations of a 100% scholarship in a few months’ time. This means essentially free law school. I have a job that puts me in consistent contact with attorneys all over my practice area in firms big and small, and I’ll have over ten years of experience as a legal assistant by the time I graduate. Assuming I do as well as I hope/plan to do, I’m going to be a pretty damn strong job candidate come graduation. So the smart plan would seem to be to go to school for free and graduate high.

But on the other hand, I got into NU and I stand at least a theoretical chance of getting some money there (won’t know until early March). And, come on, it’s freaking Northwestern, that’s really hard to pass up. Should I get no money at all from them, I can say that I’ll withdraw, but I apparently I’m an optimist because I really think that I could come away with money.

So here’s me in my head going in circles wondering:
1) how much money at NU would counterbalance a full ride at a T2, given the absolute crap that is this current job economy? I keep saying I don’t want biglaw, but it’s the hours I don’t want.

2) how in the hell could I manage to go to school full time? A year after being laid off with no job prospects in sight, my wife and I agreed that she’d become more of a stay-at-home and I’d bring home the bacon. If she could find a full time job with benefits, that could change things, but it’s really not likely.

3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick.

Being grown up sucks sometimes. The moreso because, as I said first thing, I know I need to chill out about this. My worry is that my (educated) guesses regarding admissions/money have been spot-on this entire cycle, however, so I guess I feel that not trying to plan ahead is just burying my head in the sand.

Sorry for the wall of text, but, well, you were warned.


NU should be out of the question; why and how could you do that to your children and wife? This would be a divorce in progress. You can't buy back the time lost and what you'd put your family through via that route. Also, I think you're exaggerating the NU's worth relative to the infinitely better plan of securing a free T2 law degree whilst also solidifying those relationships w/attorneys through your FT job. (that you won't have to quit, btw) When your interviewing after 4 years and the partner starts understanding your story that you chose the T2 and graduated high because it was the right thing to do for your family, that, I think, will score far more points than the NU JD. You'd be swamped with debt, with child support to pay as well to your divorced wife. Also, with the PT route, you'd still have a job to fall back on in the likely case the law job market blows as much as it does now.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:44 pm

ArghItsBlarg wrote:So here’s me in my head going in circles wondering:
1) how much money at NU would counterbalance a full ride at a T2, given the absolute crap that is this current job economy? I keep saying I don’t want biglaw, but it’s the hours I don’t want.

2) how in the hell could I manage to go to school full time? A year after being laid off with no job prospects in sight, my wife and I agreed that she’d become more of a stay-at-home and I’d bring home the bacon. If she could find a full time job with benefits, that could change things, but it’s really not likely.

3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick.

Being grown up sucks sometimes. The moreso because, as I said first thing, I know I need to chill out about this. My worry is that my (educated) guesses regarding admissions/money have been spot-on this entire cycle, however, so I guess I feel that not trying to plan ahead is just burying my head in the sand.

Sorry for the wall of text, but, well, you were warned.


My opinions:

1) 1/2 to 3/4 ride. Depends on your wife's job prospects in Chicago... the better they are, the more towards 1/2 I would lean.

2) School full time is less than the part time schedule you laid out for the T2.

3) I don't think you can given your circumstances.

Summary: I would see if I could go part time at your current job, and do part time school with a full ride. You would only have to take out $10K a year in loans with this plan, provided you cut back on some things you currently spend $$$ on. And you would have more time with your family. Employment prospects would be better this way too, IMO, than NU.

If you can't do my plan.... well, honestly, it seems like a toss up. Either go full time and be over $100K in debt from NU, or go part time for free but never see your family at the T2.

sidhesadie
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby sidhesadie » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:21 pm

How old are your kids? How many of 'em are there? If they are in school and your wife could conceivably work during their school hours and make enough to support them, great, but if YOU'RE in law school all day and she's at work all day, how much is child care going to cost?In Chicago? If the former is the case, then my advice might be different but if any of your kids are younger than first grade then:

Honestly, I think debt wise, future wise, relationship wise, the T2 is the obvious choice. If you were single or even married with no kids, I might think differently.

"3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick."

That you even say this and think it's reasonable when you have children makes me wonder what you're thinking...You and your wife have made agreements under what terms you are able to pursue this dream of yours. I don't think, based on the reluctance with which you say she agreed to this plan at all, that you're going to have a very happy wife and kids if you try to go NU. Unless you can get a full ride at NU.

If you don't want biglaw, what do you want to do, and how much of an advantage is NU going to be compared to the T2 in YOUR LOCAL market? Outside of biglaw, strong regional schools tend to place well in their region.

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LilMonsterAnnie
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby LilMonsterAnnie » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:09 pm

ArghItsBlarg wrote:So I’m beginning to experience some anxiety. Novel ahead. I don’t know that I expect any of you to offer advice, or even read the whole damn thing, but I want to get this out.

The worst part of all this is that I know the correct thing to do, chill out and wait another month. But my stupid brain won’t listen to my stupid self, so I just keep thinking up new contingencies. The problem is exactly what I thought: $$$$ (likely full ride) at a part-time T2 vs (likely) sticker at (full time only) a T14.

Essentially what it comes down to is that I support my family. I work full time. My wife’s part time salary is enough to keep our kids in part-time Montessouri, but that’s about all it covers. My salary pays our mortgage/bills and puts food on the table. In the seven months since I decided that I wanted to go to law school, it was always understood between my wife and I that I would continue to work and support the family while I went to law school at night. She would be begrudgingly okay with acting as a single parent for the four years until I graduated (I’m going to be gone from 7:15am - ~10pm four nights/week). We’re very debt-averse people who paid off our UG student loans within 2 years of graduation, bought our cars for cash and pay off our credit card debt every month.

Here’s the thing: I already have a 66% scholarship to the T2 I want to attend, with strong expectations of a 100% scholarship in a few months’ time. This means essentially free law school. I have a job that puts me in consistent contact with attorneys all over my practice area in firms big and small, and I’ll have over ten years of experience as a legal assistant by the time I graduate. Assuming I do as well as I hope/plan to do, I’m going to be a pretty damn strong job candidate come graduation. So the smart plan would seem to be to go to school for free and graduate high.

But on the other hand, I got into NU and I stand at least a theoretical chance of getting some money there (won’t know until early March). And, come on, it’s freaking Northwestern, that’s really hard to pass up. Should I get no money at all from them, I can say that I’ll withdraw, but I apparently I’m an optimist because I really think that I could come away with money.

So here’s me in my head going in circles wondering:
1) how much money at NU would counterbalance a full ride at a T2, given the absolute crap that is this current job economy? I keep saying I don’t want biglaw, but it’s the hours I don’t want.

2) how in the hell could I manage to go to school full time? A year after being laid off with no job prospects in sight, my wife and I agreed that she’d become more of a stay-at-home and I’d bring home the bacon. If she could find a full time job with benefits, that could change things, but it’s really not likely.

3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick.

Being grown up sucks sometimes. The moreso because, as I said first thing, I know I need to chill out about this. My worry is that my (educated) guesses regarding admissions/money have been spot-on this entire cycle, however, so I guess I feel that not trying to plan ahead is just burying my head in the sand.

Sorry for the wall of text, but, well, you were warned.



what you have to ask yourself is does the T2 offer a strong program in what you want to specialize in?
A T14 is a shoe-in to BigLaw and will literally pay for itself in a very short time.

Hate to be the party pooper. But if your wife thinks that those kind of hours are going to end when you get out of school, you might want to warn her that 210 hours per month is expected for most of the larger law firms. (IE...80 hour work weeks)
Why does your child "have" to be in Montessori? they are very expensive programs, one of the reasons I took my oldest child OUT of their programs. She is now a National Honor Society student in the public school system.
Until she finds something full-time, you can get some assistance
Personally? I would choose the T14 hands down

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:12 pm

LilMonsterAnnie wrote:

what you have to ask yourself is does the T2 offer a strong program in what you want to specialize in?
A T14 is a shoe-in to BigLaw and will literally pay for itself in a very short time.

Hate to be the party pooper. But if your wife thinks that those kind of hours are going to end when you get out of school, you might want to warn her that 210 hours per month is expected for most of the larger law firms. (IE...80 hour work weeks)
Why does your child "have" to be in Montessori? they are very expensive programs, one of the reasons I took my oldest child OUT of their programs. She is now a National Honor Society student in the public school system.
Until she finds something full-time, you can get some assistance
Personally? I would choose the T14 hands down


Didn't ArgBlarg (or whatever the name was) say he didn't want BigLaw?

And I would suggest reading the OCI threads... NU is not a shoe-in anymore. Apart from HYS everyone seems to be reporting only about 1/3 (or worse) biglaw placements. Now, I'm sure NU has 75% or higher job placement.... but not necessarily in biglaw anymore.

Personally, I wouldn't go full ride anywhere except HYS (where, frankly, most people don't go full ride...). I think an equally good strategy for people without stellar numbers is to find a strong regional school and get that 3/4 to full ride. Your employment chances are a little worse... but you are in less debt (and that might allow you to take a job that pays less, but has less hours... so you can see your family).


ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.

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Smitten
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Smitten » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:30 pm

firemed wrote:ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


I so hope you are right, and that it happens in the next 3 years. I would love the training and experience of biglaw, but am completely unwilling to work 80 hours a week.

firemed
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby firemed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:32 pm

Smitten wrote:
firemed wrote:ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


I so hope you are right, and that it happens in the next 3 years. I would love the training and experience of biglaw, but am completely unwilling to work 80 hours a week.


Um.... so I just talked to some Gen Y about this... and I might be wrong. In fact, it appears they might be more workahaulic than we are. Shit.

ETA: I was hoping the same thing..... oh well, maybe those Gen Y I talked to are aberrant.

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Smitten
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Smitten » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:20 am

firemed wrote:
Smitten wrote:
firemed wrote:ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


I so hope you are right, and that it happens in the next 3 years. I would love the training and experience of biglaw, but am completely unwilling to work 80 hours a week.


Um.... so I just talked to some Gen Y about this... and I might be wrong. In fact, it appears they might be more workahaulic than we are. Shit.

ETA: I was hoping the same thing..... oh well, maybe those Gen Y I talked to are aberrant.


Damn. I was really hoping!

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KMaine
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby KMaine » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:48 am

AIB - Most of the posters here are correct, you need to go to the T2. Get to negotiating that scholarship ASAP. I did choose to go to a T-14, but there are no "local T-2s" within commuting distance from my house, and I did not have the legal connections that you do.

I admit, it will be hard to turn down NU, and you may always think "I could have gone to NU," but it seems like the best thing for your family by far.

Another thing a poster is right about is that going to school full time would be MUCH EASIER than what you are planning. Full time LS is like a vacation from the real world.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:00 am

firemed wrote:
Smitten wrote:
firemed wrote:ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


I so hope you are right, and that it happens in the next 3 years. I would love the training and experience of biglaw, but am completely unwilling to work 80 hours a week.


Um.... so I just talked to some Gen Y about this... and I might be wrong. In fact, it appears they might be more workahaulic than we are. Shit.

ETA: I was hoping the same thing..... oh well, maybe those Gen Y I talked to are aberrant.


Well, I think I am right at the cutoff for Gen-Y (I confess that I won't be 30 until August... :oops: ), so I'll chime in here. I have read that we are known for choosing quality of life over high pay, that we place a lot of value on work that is in-line with our ideals, and will find work elsewhere if our boss is a jerk. I do fit this profile. No way would I work 80 hours a week making sure some corporation I don't care about has high profits. Now, 55 hours a week might be doable if you can convince me that the corporate profits are for the common good (and you pay me A LOT :lol:). I'd work 80 hours a week doing public interest on a public interest salary, just so long as they don't mind my kid running around my office after hours :wink:

That said, my current dream is to work in family law. I like the idea of advocating for people who are going through a rough time and helping them make agreements that are in the bests interests of their children. It frankly isn't much different from what I do now :mrgreen: I'm hoping that my experience as a social worker will be an asset.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:08 am

firemed wrote:
ArghItsBlarg wrote:So here’s me in my head going in circles wondering:
1) how much money at NU would counterbalance a full ride at a T2, given the absolute crap that is this current job economy? I keep saying I don’t want biglaw, but it’s the hours I don’t want.

2) how in the hell could I manage to go to school full time? A year after being laid off with no job prospects in sight, my wife and I agreed that she’d become more of a stay-at-home and I’d bring home the bacon. If she could find a full time job with benefits, that could change things, but it’s really not likely.

3) how could I manage to convince my wife that NU with some debt would be better than a full ride at a T2 and that she should start looking for a FT job again even though it makes her sick.
.


2) School full time is less than the part time schedule you laid out for the T2.

3) I don't think you can given your circumstances.

Summary: I would see if I could go part time at your current job, and do part time school with a full ride. You would only have to take out $10K a year in loans with this plan, provided you cut back on some things you currently spend $$$ on. And you would have more time with your family. Employment prospects would be better this way too, IMO, than NU.

If you can't do my plan.... well, honestly, it seems like a toss up. Either go full time and be over $100K in debt from NU, or go part time for free but never see your family at the T2.


Like others here, I am going to say that the T2 is the far superior option given your family circumstances. It is such a superior option, in fact, I wonder why you are even having this debate. I am wondering if deep down inside you don't like the idea of working full time while in school because you know you will never see your kids, and are looking for a good excuse to go full time? You've laid out a pretty tough schedule for yourself. I'll echo the above opinion that a full ride at the T2 part-time and working part-time (so that you can continue to network and bring home SOME money) would be a superior option if you can make it work financially. Then you can focus on your grades AND check in on your kids from time to time :D

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rinkrat19
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:20 pm

firemed wrote:
LilMonsterAnnie wrote:

what you have to ask yourself is does the T2 offer a strong program in what you want to specialize in?
A T14 is a shoe-in to BigLaw and will literally pay for itself in a very short time.

Hate to be the party pooper. But if your wife thinks that those kind of hours are going to end when you get out of school, you might want to warn her that 210 hours per month is expected for most of the larger law firms. (IE...80 hour work weeks)
Why does your child "have" to be in Montessori? they are very expensive programs, one of the reasons I took my oldest child OUT of their programs. She is now a National Honor Society student in the public school system.
Until she finds something full-time, you can get some assistance
Personally? I would choose the T14 hands down


Didn't ArgBlarg (or whatever the name was) say he didn't want BigLaw?

And I would suggest reading the OCI threads... NU is not a shoe-in anymore. Apart from HYS everyone seems to be reporting only about 1/3 (or worse) biglaw placements. Now, I'm sure NU has 75% or higher job placement.... but not necessarily in biglaw anymore.

Personally, I wouldn't go full ride anywhere except HYS (where, frankly, most people don't go full ride...). I think an equally good strategy for people without stellar numbers is to find a strong regional school and get that 3/4 to full ride. Your employment chances are a little worse... but you are in less debt (and that might allow you to take a job that pays less, but has less hours... so you can see your family).


ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


I believe NU still has some of the highest biglaw placement, even out-performing a few/a lot (depending on which numbers you're looking at) of the T10. Employers presumably like the WE that every NU grad already has.
This article has NU ranked #1 for placing at NJ250 firms in 2009 (Yale is way down at #18, presumably having set all their grads up with judicial clerkships, I guess): http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

This data shows NU around 9th or 10th (and I'm not sure what year the numbers are for): http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

On the topic of Gen X/Y: I've read that we/they are willing to work our asses off--as long as we like our jobs. We'll also trade salary and long-term stability for short-term flexibility (flex schedules, more vacation, etc.) and relaxed rules (internet access allowed at work, personal use of email/phones, etc., less strict dress code).

All of which sounds pretty right on to me. Work shouldn't suck. I'll take less money to make it suck less, and I'll work a hell of a lot harder if my soul doesn't die a little every time I walk into the office. According to the old cliché: I work to live, I don't live to work.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ArghItsBlarg » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:26 pm

Thanks for the opinions, guys. As I said initially, I know this is irrational right now.
emhellmer wrote:
firemed wrote:
2) School full time is less than the part time schedule you laid out for the T2.


If you can't do my plan.... well, honestly, it seems like a toss up. Either go full time and be over $100K in debt from NU, or go part time for free but never see your family at the T2.


Like others here, I am going to say that the T2 is the far superior option given your family circumstances. It is such a superior option, in fact, I wonder why you are even having this debate. I am wondering if deep down inside you don't like the idea of working full time while in school because you know you will never see your kids, and are looking for a good excuse to go full time? You've laid out a pretty tough schedule for yourself. I'll echo the above opinion that a full ride at the T2 part-time and working part-time (so that you can continue to network and bring home SOME money) would be a superior option if you can make it work financially. Then you can focus on your grades AND check in on your kids from time to time :D


This is a real big concern. I mean, huge-big, and it's the one lingering concern that keeps me up at night about law school. My kids are 3 years and 3 months, respectively. For my firstborn, I picked him up from daycare every day, fed him dinner most nights and had tons of time to spend with him. Since then my commute has changed from a half hour drive to 1.5 hours on the train and I get to see the kids for maybe half an hour before we get into the bedtime routine. Going FT to NU and thus working only one FT job would be a blessing. Just a really really expensive blessing with no income and abysmal health insurance.

Dropping my hours at work might be an option, I hadn't considered that in conjunction with PT evening classes. I still have to commute down to the City, but maybe I can have a later start in the day and at least spend some time with the kids in the morning. That's worth pursuing, thanks for the idea. :)

As for the scholarship, I submitted my application for the full-ride scholarship earlier this week. I have literally nothing to do right now while I wait for NU and one other T2's scholarship offers (which will come hopefully in March) except my 600 words for NU's financial aid. I've been going hard core on law school since June and always with something substantial on the horizon that I need to prepare for. Now that my apps are done, I've got all this potential energy built up and no outlet for it, so apparently it all goes to my neuroses. I guess I'm (really) not a good waiter.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone, there's a reason I posted this here and not on the general boards.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby LilMonsterAnnie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm

ETA: I think biglaw is in for a big surprise from Gen Y. They take a lot less shit than we do... and are way more willing to lay down a line in the sand, even if it gets them fired. IMO biglaw is going to find, once the recession is over and people in this field are less pathetically desperate for employment, that they have a harder time finding talent willing to work their hours. And since they will be unlikely to want to raise salary further, they will probably compromise on hours worked.


Working with a bunch of Gen Y, I tend to agree with you. They are also some of the biggest A$$ kissers around (sorry if that offends-but I am living the dream). However, just like us, they do not put up with excessive micromanaging either.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:41 pm

Biglaw is such a small, selective world that I doubt they'll have to change their policies at all for Gen Y. Those who come in with that attitude will not get biglaw jobs or won't make it past their first year. Biglaw is just too lucrative to make demands. There will always be a few people willing to work long hours for big money. I like flexibility and vacation just as much as the next guy, but I jumped at the chance to make $3K/week.
Last edited by JazzOne on Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:46 pm

My kids are 3 years and 3 months, respectively. For my firstborn, I picked him up from daycare every day, fed him dinner most nights and had tons of time to spend with him. Since then my commute has changed from a half hour drive to 1.5 hours on the train and I get to see the kids for maybe half an hour before we get into the bedtime routine.


Ouch! My father went back to school to earn his Ph.D. when I was a year old. He also kept his full time job. To this day he bemoans the fact that he didn't spend more time with his kids when we were young. He's actually the only person in my family who hasn't been completely 100% supportive when I have wondered if going to law school while my daughter is so young will be worth it in the long run. Working full time I only spend 2 hours with her as it is (excluding the morning rush out the door), so I decided that full-time law school couldn't possibly be any worse. You situation, however, sounds like it could be worse. If it makes you feel any better, when I look back on my childhood I have many wonderful memories of my father, and never felt like he wasn't around. It's that whole quality time > quantity time thing :wink: Of course, now that I have a kid I understand that there are purely selfish reasons to want to spend time with your kids too.

Going FT to NU and thus working only one FT job would be a blessing. Just a really really expensive blessing with no income and abysmal health insurance.


The school health insurance may be bad, but you might want to look into seeing if your children would qualify for SCHIP insurance. If they do, look into the providors who accept it. It might be an option worth considering.

Now that my apps are done, I've got all this potential energy built up and no outlet for it, so apparently it all goes to my neuroses. I guess I'm (really) not a good waiter.


I think that's why were all on this forum :lol:

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:48 pm

JazzOne wrote:Biglaw is such a small, selective world that I doubt they'll have to hange their policies at all for gen y. Those who come in with that attitude will not get biglaw jobs or won't make it past their first year. Biglaw is just too lucrative to make demands. There will always be a few people willing to work long hours for big money. I like flexibilty and vacation just as much as the next guy, but I jumped at the chance to make $3K/week.


It may take a generation (or more) to change the biglaw culture, if it ever happens... when Gen Yers are senior partners, maybe they'll let the junior associates work 4 long days and take Fridays off (or whatever), because they wish they could've done it when they were junior associates.

But the culture can change--it's not totally static, even if it's slower to shift than some other industries. I venture to say that office life in Biglaw now is not identical to how it was in the 1950s. For one thing, women get to be something besides secretaries nowadays.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:52 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Biglaw is such a small, selective world that I doubt they'll have to hange their policies at all for gen y. Those who come in with that attitude will not get biglaw jobs or won't make it past their first year. Biglaw is just too lucrative to make demands. There will always be a few people willing to work long hours for big money. I like flexibilty and vacation just as much as the next guy, but I jumped at the chance to make $3K/week.


It may take a generation (or more) to change the biglaw culture, if it ever happens... when Gen Yers are senior partners, maybe they'll let the junior associates work 4 long days and take Fridays off (or whatever), because they wish they could've done it when they were junior associates.

But the culture can change--it's not totally static, even if it's slower to shift than some other industries. I venture to say that office life in Biglaw now is not identical to how it was in the 1950s. For one thing, women get to be something besides secretaries nowadays.

I don't think those Gen Yers (who want flexibility over money) will ever get the chance to be biglaw partners. If I work my ass off and make partner, there is no way I'm going to let the next crop of recruits work less than I did. Obviously, I can't predict the future, and nothing is static, but I am highly skeptical that the most lucrative jobs in law will not be filled by the hardest working people. I want to make a shitload of money, and I'm willing to work harder than the next guy to make that happen. There are a lot of my classmates with the exact same attitude.




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