OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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Icculus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Icculus » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:01 pm

Teflon_Jeff wrote:I don't think the 1-page thing is hard and fast anymore, especially in this day and age of digital submission. Mine is 3 pages, and I've only ever gotten compliments on it at interviews.

Of course, as a 0L, I'm only talking non-law, so maybe there is a huge difference there.

I'd get it down to two, and call it good, with all the best stuff on page 1.


OCI resumes are required to be one page and as far as I can tell even when applying for jobs outside OCI it should only be one page. Applying for jobs in the legal field is not like applying to anything before I got here, there are basically different rules.

To get mine down, I only put the most meaningful employment I have had, and I eliminated certain descriptions of what I did in order to get it down. Basically, ask yourself what are the most important/impressive things on this resume? Leave those. It was tough, I had 8 years prof experience, but I am happy with my final result.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:08 pm

My CV is 4 pages long, and I cut it down to 1 page for my resume, and I am very happy I did. I am also a rising 2L, but I landed multiple 1L SA offers and my SA was just over, so I now have a better idea of what firms (well, at least some firms) are looking for in a SA.

Your resume is a highlight of your career, not a biographical report. The point of the resume is to show progression, highlight your achievements, and show how what you have done/learned can be ported to the practice of law. In the context of OCI SA hiring, firms wants to see potential that will fit their needs. I think there is no need to list several jobs that you had with similar responsibilities, and there is no need to go 10 years or more back in time (I was told this by hiring partners because I asked about the 1-page rule during interviews) because your later jobs should surpass those earlier jobs both in responsibilities and scope.

I was actually also told to take off my community services/volunteer sections because, I quote, "we look at those sections to spot a well-rounded candidate. In your case, all the jobs you have held and your personality tells me that you are very well-rounded, so there is no need to keep those extra things if you are short on space." One person's interpretation, but makes sense.

I'd just go one page. There are several things I am doing to make sure my positions fit:
Limit all descriptions to 2 lines for recent jobs. Use paragraph/sentences.
Limit descriptions to 1 line for older/earlier jobs.
.5/.75 margins
Put personal address information in the header, on ONE or TWO lines.
For similar jobs (if I choose to list them), use ONE line for position and description. (so one line for the company/dates, one line for position/description)
Don't use full line break between jobs, instead set a 6/8pt space after the last job description. (this surprisingly saves about 2-3 lines per page).

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Deep Trench
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Deep Trench » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:15 pm

Rising 2L, IP background. I have a 2-page resume, and I received 25 preselects from job fairs so far. I did not change the resume for OCI, and my school's CSO agreed that I should keep it at 2 pages.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:18 pm

Deep Trench wrote:Rising 2L, IP background. I have a 2-page resume, and I received 25 preselects from job fairs so far. I did not change the resume for OCI, and my school's CSO agreed that I should keep it at 2 pages.


See my post above, I am also IP and going to Loyola. I had several people tell me that it's fine to keep to 2-page, but it's also not necessary. One tip was: submit a one pager and bringing in a 2 pager and say "I reduced my resume to one page for OCI but here is a full resume if you would like" or something along those lines.

However, IP firms are more likely to comfortable with a two page resume than GP firms/non-IP groups.

nouseforaname123
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nouseforaname123 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:26 pm

You want one page. Just to add what others have said:

Nobody is going to study your resume in great detail (except to check for typos). If your OCI is a preselect system, firm employees are only going to focus on your grades and class rank in deciding who gets a screening interview.

At OCI, your interviewers will have a tabbed binder; one tab for each scheduled interview. When they open to your tab your resume will be on one side and an evaluation form will be on the opposing side. You don't want your interviewers to have to flip through pages to get to relevant info.

Somewhat related, some of your interviewers will not read your resume prior to your interview. The more time they spend reading your resume the less time they will spend talking to you.

I went with one page and had a very successful OCI.

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Deep Trench
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Deep Trench » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:36 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Deep Trench wrote:Rising 2L, IP background. I have a 2-page resume, and I received 25 preselects from job fairs so far. I did not change the resume for OCI, and my school's CSO agreed that I should keep it at 2 pages.


See my post above, I am also IP and going to Loyola. I had several people tell me that it's fine to keep to 2-page, but it's also not necessary. One tip was: submit a one pager and bringing in a 2 pager and say "I reduced my resume to one page for OCI but here is a full resume if you would like" or something along those lines.

However, IP firms are more likely to comfortable with a two page resume than GP firms/non-IP groups.


I am not saying it is necessary or desirable to have 2-page resume for IP or people with long career. I am just saying that in some instances it is not necessary to cram your resume into 1 page. 18 out of my preselects from job fairs were with GP firms. Although the results from our OCI bidding are not available to the students yet, our CSO told me that I am starting to receive preselects from various firms.

r6_philly
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:42 pm

Deep Trench wrote:I am not saying it is necessary or desirable to have 2-page resume for IP or people with long career. I am just saying that in some instances it is not necessary to cram your resume into 1 page. 18 out of my preselects were with GP firms. Although the results from our OCI bidding are not available to the students yet, our CSO told me that I am starting to receive preselects from various firms.


But you will probably get the same result with a 1 page resume. It isn't necessary to cram or not to cram when you are a strong candidate. No one is going to pass up a candidate solely because the resume is too long. However, being concise is a very sought after virtue in practice, so you run the risk of someone else thinking it's not necessary. Perhaps it will never be a deal breaker, but why do something out of the norm if there is no added benefit (the undisputed norm being 1 page).

I was an advocate of 2-page resumes before my 1L summer job search. Now I am not.

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Deep Trench
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Deep Trench » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Deep Trench wrote:I am not saying it is necessary or desirable to have 2-page resume for IP or people with long career. I am just saying that in some instances it is not necessary to cram your resume into 1 page. 18 out of my preselects were with GP firms. Although the results from our OCI bidding are not available to the students yet, our CSO told me that I am starting to receive preselects from various firms.


But you will probably get the same result with a 1 page resume. It isn't necessary to cram or not to cram when you are a strong candidate. No one is going to pass up a candidate solely because the resume is too long. However, being concise is a very sought after virtue in practice, so you run the risk of someone else thinking it's not necessary. Perhaps it will never be a deal breaker, but why do something out of the norm if there is no added benefit (the undisputed norm being 1 page).

I was an advocate of 2-page resumes before my 1L summer job search. Now I am not.


Fair. I wouldn't change my bait since I am getting plenty of fish to bite it, but perhaps other people should use more conventional bait. FWIW, I used 1-page resume for 1L SA and did not have much success, although the length of my resume is not the only thing that has changed since then.

nouseforaname123
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nouseforaname123 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:50 pm

Deep Trench wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Deep Trench wrote:Rising 2L, IP background. I have a 2-page resume, and I received 25 preselects from job fairs so far. I did not change the resume for OCI, and my school's CSO agreed that I should keep it at 2 pages.


See my post above, I am also IP and going to Loyola. I had several people tell me that it's fine to keep to 2-page, but it's also not necessary. One tip was: submit a one pager and bringing in a 2 pager and say "I reduced my resume to one page for OCI but here is a full resume if you would like" or something along those lines.

However, IP firms are more likely to comfortable with a two page resume than GP firms/non-IP groups.


I am not saying it is necessary or desirable to have 2-page resume for IP or people with long career. I am just saying that in some instances it is not necessary to cram your resume into 1 page. 18 out of my preselects from job fairs were with GP firms. Although the results from our OCI bidding are not available to the students yet, our CSO told me that I am starting to receive preselects from various firms.


You're reading too much into preselects. Firms have to sort through thousands of resumes at the preselect phase. That is typically left up to individuals who work in recruiting/HR/talent management (I know one firm has one person assigned to sorting through resumes for the entire firm). The people who decide on preselects focus on school and class rank and glance over he resume for obvious typos. The two page/one page thing is almost irrelevant at this stage in the game.

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Rotor
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Rotor » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:36 am

As long as you are judicious in what you include, you can exceed the 1-pg-only advice relevant to the K-JD and those with limited work experience. However, I would recommend keeping it to two pages. I had 20 years of various navy assignments, two advanced degrees and still made it fit front & back. You may also need to be creative in your organization. You want all the vital stuff on page 1 because for some, they will only read the front. For example, I only had my 3 most significant assignments on page 1 followed by a "timeline continuity" line that said, basically "1988-2002 see over". That way, there was no gap between UG and the jobs on p 1. Those who were interested in what I was doing when they were 1Ls themselves could do so.

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JCFindley
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JCFindley » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:52 am

Rotor wrote:As long as you are judicious in what you include, you can exceed the 1-pg-only advice relevant to the K-JD and those with limited work experience. However, I would recommend keeping it to two pages. I had 20 years of various navy assignments, two advanced degrees and still made it fit front & back. You may also need to be creative in your organization. You want all the vital stuff on page 1 because for some, they will only read the front. For example, I only had my 3 most significant assignments on page 1 followed by a "timeline continuity" line that said, basically "1988-2002 see over". That way, there was no gap between UG and the jobs on p 1. Those who were interested in what I was doing when they were 1Ls themselves could do so.


20 years? You are probably one of the few that has been out of UG as long as me. How did OCI go for you and how much age discrimination did you get with that long a gap?

While I am picking your brain, how about an "interests" section on the resume? There is a thread in legal employment and a lot of folks are adamant that the interests section is a must in legal hiring. I know you have a similar background to mine and am wondering if you had one. I can't imagine putting a section saying I like long walks on the beach or cooking or travel at this point in my life. I get that it is a GREAT thing to separate one K-JD from another but good or bad our background would certainly be enough to be memorable at OCI wouldn't it? Or should I stop taking ludes and just put it on there?

Thanks.

JC

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Rotor
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Rotor » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:40 am

JCFindley wrote:
Rotor wrote:As long as you are judicious in what you include, you can exceed the 1-pg-only advice relevant to the K-JD and those with limited work experience. However, I would recommend keeping it to two pages. I had 20 years of various navy assignments, two advanced degrees and still made it fit front & back. You may also need to be creative in your organization. You want all the vital stuff on page 1 because for some, they will only read the front. For example, I only had my 3 most significant assignments on page 1 followed by a "timeline continuity" line that said, basically "1988-2002 see over". That way, there was no gap between UG and the jobs on p 1. Those who were interested in what I was doing when they were 1Ls themselves could do so.


20 years? You are probably one of the few that has been out of UG as long as me. How did OCI go for you and how much age discrimination did you get with that long a gap?

While I am picking your brain, how about an "interests" section on the resume? There is a thread in legal employment and a lot of folks are adamant that the interests section is a must in legal hiring. I know you have a similar background to mine and am wondering if you had one. I can't imagine putting a section saying I like long walks on the beach or cooking or travel at this point in my life. I get that it is a GREAT thing to separate one K-JD from another but good or bad our background would certainly be enough to be memorable at OCI wouldn't it? Or should I stop taking ludes and just put it on there?

Thanks.

JC
PMd

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:01 pm

nouseforaname123 wrote:Somewhat related, some most of your interviewers will not read your resume prior to your interview.

I hated OCI. It felt like a huge run around.

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spleenworship
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Update:

Just applied for a summer associate position at a Biglaw Firm (V50) in NYC. I'm top 1/3 at a regional T2 (the region is not New York), and I'm over 30.

You think they'll take the time to laugh before they put my application in the trash? I've got 50 cents on them taking half a moment to wonder why the hell I applied before they do.


I'd love for them to give me an interview though. I sure as hell ain't shaving off my handlebar mustache, so that'd be a hoot.

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JCFindley
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JCFindley » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:31 pm

spleenworship wrote:Update:

Just applied for a summer associate position at a Biglaw Firm (V50) in NYC. I'm top 1/3 at a regional T2 (the region is not New York), and I'm over 30.

You think they'll take the time to laugh before they put my application in the trash? I've got 50 cents on them taking half a moment to wonder why the hell I applied before they do.


I'd love for them to give me an interview though. I sure as hell ain't shaving off my handlebar mustache, so that'd be a hoot.


So you're saying I can keep the beard? SWEET!

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spleenworship
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:46 pm

JCFindley wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Update:

Just applied for a summer associate position at a Biglaw Firm (V50) in NYC. I'm top 1/3 at a regional T2 (the region is not New York), and I'm over 30.

You think they'll take the time to laugh before they put my application in the trash? I've got 50 cents on them taking half a moment to wonder why the hell I applied before they do.


I'd love for them to give me an interview though. I sure as hell ain't shaving off my handlebar mustache, so that'd be a hoot.


So you're saying I can keep the beard? SWEET!


Depends on where you are at, I would guess. Down here in the Southwest we're pretty casual... but i don't think that's the norm in most places. Facial hair is something like half the male attorneys have here. Also... 5 star restraunt + blue jeans = cool. Hell, there are some rural courts in my state you can wear blue jeans and a button up to.

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JCFindley
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JCFindley » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:55 pm

spleenworship wrote:
JCFindley wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Update:

Just applied for a summer associate position at a Biglaw Firm (V50) in NYC. I'm top 1/3 at a regional T2 (the region is not New York), and I'm over 30.

You think they'll take the time to laugh before they put my application in the trash? I've got 50 cents on them taking half a moment to wonder why the hell I applied before they do.


I'd love for them to give me an interview though. I sure as hell ain't shaving off my handlebar mustache, so that'd be a hoot.


So you're saying I can keep the beard? SWEET!


Depends on where you are at, I would guess. Down here in the Southwest we're pretty casual... but i don't think that's the norm in most places. Facial hair is something like half the male attorneys have here. Also... 5 star restraunt + blue jeans = cool. Hell, there are some rural courts in my state you can wear blue jeans and a button up to.


Yeah, my guess is I am going to have to be all clean cut by OCI in NYC next year but for now, my kids said I looked like "Capt Price" which is why it is my new avatar.

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spleenworship
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:23 pm

JCFindley wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Depends on where you are at, I would guess. Down here in the Southwest we're pretty casual... but i don't think that's the norm in most places. Facial hair is something like half the male attorneys have here. Also... 5 star restraunt + blue jeans = cool. Hell, there are some rural courts in my state you can wear blue jeans and a button up to.


Yeah, my guess is I am going to have to be all clean cut by OCI in NYC next year but for now, my kids said I looked like "Capt Price" which is why it is my new avatar.


LOL! Awesome.

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westcoast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby westcoast » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:23 pm

I have a question for you folks. I'm considering deferring at a T14 due to some family issues that require me to stay in my current area. I could attend the local regional school (ranked in the 40s) this fall. But even though it's cheaper, I'm not getting anywhere near a free ride there.

Basically, I already feel so much older than the average student that I'm hesitant to defer. But on the other hand, since I'm over 30, how much difference could one year really make? I'm eager to get started with law school, but I'll be in a much better position to be successful in 1 year after I can leave the area free of responsibility. I just thought I could get some opinions from people my age. Do you think there's a difference between deferring in your 20s versus your 30s? I will be able to work during the year off, I'm not married, and I don't have any children. Thanks.

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haus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby haus » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:34 pm

@westcoast,

Other than the situation that is keeping you in a specific reason for this coming school year, what would you be doing this year if not law school? Can you make some money to save for future expenses or cut down on existing debt? Can you pick up some additional experience that might be useful for a future career path?

Will the item that is keeping you from moving going to be an impact on your ability to concentrate while studying? Could you see it becoming an excuse for poor performance as a 1L?

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Rotor
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Rotor » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:40 pm

westcoast wrote:I have a question for you folks. I'm considering deferring at a T14 due to some family issues that require me to stay in my current area. I could attend the local regional school (ranked in the 40s) this fall. But even though it's cheaper, I'm not getting anywhere near a free ride there.

Basically, I already feel so much older than the average student that I'm hesitant to defer. But on the other hand, since I'm over 30, how much difference could one year really make? I'm eager to get started with law school, but I'll be in a much better position to be successful in 1 year after I can leave the area free of responsibility. I just thought I could get some opinions from people my age. Do you think there's a difference between deferring in your 20s versus your 30s? I will be able to work during the year off, I'm not married, and I don't have any children. Thanks.

I don't think a one year deferral will make that much of a difference--especially if it will put you in a better position to succeed. Unless you are 38/39 and the year will cause your odometer to roll over to 40 during interviews before 2L year, I can't see that it will make any substantial difference. Even so I was 43 when I started and did OK. If your choices are T14 next year or T40 this year (but still with debt), probabilities say you should probably wait.

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westcoast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby westcoast » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:15 pm

haus wrote:@westcoast,

Other than the situation that is keeping you in a specific reason for this coming school year, what would you be doing this year if not law school? Can you make some money to save for future expenses or cut down on existing debt? Can you pick up some additional experience that might be useful for a future career path?

Will the item that is keeping you from moving going to be an impact on your ability to concentrate while studying? Could you see it becoming an excuse for poor performance as a 1L?


I would likely get a job if I can find one. I'm not sure I could do anything that would advance my legal career though. I'm confident that I'd be able to concentrate as a 1L if I chose the local school. But I'm concerned that I'll regret passing up the T14 for my family.

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westcoast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby westcoast » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:23 pm

Rotor wrote:I don't think a one year deferral will make that much of a difference--especially if it will put you in a better position to succeed. Unless you are 38/39 and the year will cause your odometer to roll over to 40 during interviews before 2L year, I can't see that it will make any substantial difference. Even so I was 43 when I started and did OK. If your choices are T14 next year or T40 this year (but still with debt), probabilities say you should probably wait.


Thanks Rotor.

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MURPH
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby MURPH » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:26 am

You could retake the LSAT and get a slightly higher score, apply earlier in the next cycle and get a little more scholarship money at a T14. Even a point or two can make a difference in scholarship money. Three points is a game changer. Plus you already went through the cycle once. So doing it again is not too bad. I kind of wish I had done that (or not done law school at all) instead of being stuck in T-15 land.

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worldtraveler
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:44 am

To add to the resume advice: if you are public interest or human rights focused, it's perfectly fine, and even expected to have more than one page. Your volunteer and community involvement experience, if you have any, will matter much more and it's better to keep things on them leave them off, providing they're substantial and not "I tutored a kid a couple of times."




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