OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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KMaine
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby KMaine » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Though nobody asked me, I would do it again. I guess I took a risk, but it never really entered my mind that I would not be successful. I think that I could have finished substantially lower in terms of my grades and still gotten a job that I would have been happy with (smaller firm jobs in my home state). With that I still would have been slightly better off financially in the short term and much better off once I paid off my loans than I was teaching at a private high school.

Uprooting the family was tough, but I think we will remember this as a great three years. I could go back to teaching after law, but even more than law I think high school teaching is a young man's game. I am excited to start a new career and work in a competitive high-powered environment. I do worry about the hours somewhat, but I think my exit options will be good. It has been an adventure, and overall a very positive one. It has been fun to go to school with so many bright, young people, to meet interesting, diverse people from all around the country and to listen to brilliant people lecture all day. I also like taking exams, and all of that pressure.

I think my experience as a lawyer might help me be more competitive for teaching jobs in the future, but honestly cannot see going that route (except maybe an adjunct position at a local law school).

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Sinra
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Sinra » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:52 pm

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Last edited by Sinra on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:57 pm

a_evans89 wrote:Jazz: Thanks for being so honest. I think I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and walk away from law school---if anyone needs a LGB in excellent shape or an unopened book of 10 PT's, I wont be needing them any longer...

To all the old school 0L's: Do responses like Jazz's make you at all nervous about your decision??


I'm leaving behind a very steady, stable job that is known for turning go-getters into bleary eyed zombies who seek nothing more than following the HR manual and counting the days until retirement (guess in which sector I work :roll: ) Yes, some days I feel spoiled, and think "for all the mindless drudgery of this job, most people would kill for my hours, benefits, and stability." Other days I think "if I stay another day at this place I am going to become just as useless and dead as the rest of these people." Finally, I decided to take the plunge. THere's no doubt that a JD can open up doors that are just closed, period. It may take some scrabbling and creativity at first while we scream about paying back our student loans, but I decided to just go for it rather than stay in this life sucking job that is at the pinacle of my current career path.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:04 pm

sbalive wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
stevededalus wrote:Anybody have experience with employers for jobs other than big law? I can see why big law firms might prefer a 25-year-old single law grad over a 35-year-old parent, but what about government and nonprofit employers?


To answer the question, though, I have found public interest jobs to be ridiculously difficult to get. I can't even get an interview with PI employers because I have no PI work on my resume at all. They don't care at all that I'm at the top of my class and on law review.


As for the latter -- this was an obstacle for me even in 1L summer hiring... if you can swing PI for 1L summer (and I got a great position eventually), I would recommend it if only because you get a sense for what PI law jobs were like (I certainly know that I had a better sense for firm jobs and in-house jobs from friends I'd made before law school) AND to get some PI on your resume in case that's what you want to do later. The low or zero pay sucks, but I think it's worth it in the long run.


I'm a little unclear on this as well. I spent three years in the non-profit sector. The attorneys at my agency were never right out of law school. The problem with non-profit and smaller firms, from what I can gather, is they don't have the time or the resources to train you. We hired attorneys who had never worked for a non-profit, but they had to be able to demonstrate that they would know what they were doing from day 1. I hear it's the same for small firms. I would prefer to work in a small agency or for a non-profit, but I gather that the best way to do this is to get hired by a big firm, get all the training and experience you can, and then quit and find a job that you like. Anyone else know about this?

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Iconoclast
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Iconoclast » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:05 pm

lolschool2011 wrote:Doesn't everyone in the world put the date you graduated from UG on your resume? I think it's pretty easy to deduce how old any applicant is... there's no sense in trying to hide what's so easily ascertainable.


Just like everyone in this thread didn't go straight from UG to law school... not everyone went straight from high school to college.

In general, you can probably make that assumption... but the demographic ITT is already outside the traditional high school -> UG -> grad school pipeline.

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:07 pm

lolschool2011 wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
stevededalus wrote:JazzOne, given your experiences and the current hiring environment, would you do it all over again?

That is so difficult to answer. I have learned so much in law school, and I am surrounded by smart people with an incredible work ethic. I love my classes and my classmates (for the most part). However, the hiring market is so horrible, that I don't think law school is worth the gamble. Even with a full scholarship, I still felt like I had taken on too much debt and put my family through too much for a slim shot at biglaw.

Prior to law school, I had no appreciation for my teaching job. I hated it every day. Now that I have some experience in another field, I realize how secure my old job was. I realize how easy it was and how reasonable the hours were. There are a lot of times I wish I could go back to the stress-free world of teaching. Two weeks off for Christmas and 3 months off for the summer: I'll never see that kind of vacation again as long as I'm a lawyer. There is no way I could have realized how good my job was without leaving it to experience something else.

So, from this side of the equation, law school seems like a poor investment. But there is no way you could have convinced me of that while I was teaching. Anything seemed better than teaching. Unfortunately, there are a lot of law grads (even from the T14) without any job at all. It never even occurred to me that such an outcome was possible. The legal market is a wreck. This is the worst time, possibly in the entire history of our nation, to go into law. I'm sorry that answer is so equivocal, but it's so hard to answer because I know the outcome of my story. I won the law school lottery. But LS grading is quite arbitrary, as is legal hiring, so things could have easily turned out differently for me. If I didn't have a biglaw job lined up for this summer, I would definitely regret coming to law school.


Now here's a big question - one that has been heavily debated on TLS. Do you believe your JD will help in any considerable way if you decide to return to teaching? (higher salary/teaching position/etc)

I can't even imagine going back to teaching. If I went back to teaching high school, I think I would get a small raise for having a graduate degree. I think the JD also opens up some CC possibilities, and if I practice law for a while, I might be able to snag an adjunct professorship somewhere. I'd love to be an adjunct professor. I'd like to be a full-time law professor, but I'm in no mood to go through the hiring ringer again. I've got a good offer on the table, and I'm going to try to parlay that into a full-time offer to pay off my loans and put a little scratch in the bank. I've been through too much to take anything for granted at this point. I won't even be able to enjoy my biglaw salary. I'll probably stick as much of it as possible in the bank in case I ever get laid off.

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Sinra
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Sinra » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:09 pm

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:11 pm

a_evans89 wrote:Jazz: Thanks for being so honest. I think I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and walk away from law school---if anyone needs a LGB in excellent shape or an unopened book of 10 PT's, I wont be needing them any longer...

I never know how to feel about comments like this. I don't want to dissuade anyone from following his dreams. My experiences may be atypical. All I can do is relay my experiences as honestly as possible. I hope you aren't deciding against law school based solely on my anecdotal evidence. Law school and OCI have a way of tearing people down, so my perspective might be a bit jaded. I try to be as objective as possible, and I'd be happy to answer any specific questions. Forgoing law school is probably your best bet, but I still feel guilty telling people that.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby NonTradHealthLaw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:17 pm

emhellmer wrote:I'm leaving behind a very steady, stable job that is known for turning go-getters into bleary eyed zombies who seek nothing more than following the HR manual and counting the days until retirement (guess in which sector I work :roll: ) Yes, some days I feel spoiled, and think "for all the mindless drudgery of this job, most people would kill for my hours, benefits, and stability." Other days I think "if I stay another day at this place I am going to become just as useless and dead as the rest of these people." Finally, I decided to take the plunge. THere's no doubt that a JD can open up doors that are just closed, period. It may take some scrabbling and creativity at first while we scream about paying back our student loans, but I decided to just go for it rather than stay in this life sucking job that is at the pinacle of my current career path.


Wow, summarized my feelings perfectly. We must be in the same sector - absolutely rewarding at times; other times completely stagnating.

I'm looking forward to the intellectual challenge - and being able to use my age as an excuse to avoid the inevitable social pettiness will just allow that much more time to be dedicated to learning this new language and method of thinking.

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:18 pm

NonTradHealthLaw wrote:
emhellmer wrote:I'm leaving behind a very steady, stable job that is known for turning go-getters into bleary eyed zombies who seek nothing more than following the HR manual and counting the days until retirement (guess in which sector I work :roll: ) Yes, some days I feel spoiled, and think "for all the mindless drudgery of this job, most people would kill for my hours, benefits, and stability." Other days I think "if I stay another day at this place I am going to become just as useless and dead as the rest of these people." Finally, I decided to take the plunge. THere's no doubt that a JD can open up doors that are just closed, period. It may take some scrabbling and creativity at first while we scream about paying back our student loans, but I decided to just go for it rather than stay in this life sucking job that is at the pinacle of my current career path.


Wow, summarized my feelings perfectly. We must be in the same sector - absolutely rewarding at times; other times completely stagnating.

I'm looking forward to the intellectual challenge - and being able to use my age as an excuse to avoid the inevitable social pettiness will just allow that much more time to be dedicated to learning this new language and method of thinking.

That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.

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ahduth
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ahduth » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:26 pm

a_evans89 wrote:Jazz: Thanks for being so honest. I think I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and walk away from law school---if anyone needs a LGB in excellent shape or an unopened book of 10 PT's, I wont be needing them any longer...

To all the old school 0L's: Do responses like Jazz's make you at all nervous about your decision??


Not anymore than I already was. Most things worth doing in life are a gamble. I've always been a bit worried about law firm culture (and the resultant hiring practices vis-a-vis my age). But I have a bunch of experience in accounting and finance operations, and people everywhere are useless twits more than half the time. This is corporate America, welcome to the party.

I don't have a family, so I suppose I'm free to have this attitude. My impression is your age can count against you if you come off as arrogant or inflexible. But firms will be doing me a favor by passing on me if they expect to crunch me into a little mold in order to shoot out a little pre-programmed legal drone. The hiring market is terrible, but I've worked the hours before, and if it's a matter of being able to get good work internally... corporate politics is one of those games at which you improve with age. I'm nervous, but knowing the stakes just gives one that much more incentive to kill it your first year.

I'm not a pure career changer on some level, in the sense that I do intend to go back to the finance/accounting advisory side in some capacity eventually. That being said, I didn't file these applications with the intent of falling back on what I've been doing up to now.

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ahduth
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ahduth » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:27 pm

JazzOne wrote:That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.


I would assume corporate politics is a much more highly refined art form in law firms, actually.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby NonTradHealthLaw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:33 pm

JazzOne wrote:That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.


Do you mean gossiping and bed-hopping, or more traditional networking, intramurals and bar review?

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:36 pm

ahduth wrote:
JazzOne wrote:That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.


I would assume corporate politics is a much more highly refined art form in law firms, actually.

Yeah, it's even more petty.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:37 pm

NonTradHealthLaw wrote:
JazzOne wrote:That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.


Do you mean gossiping and bed-hopping, or more traditional networking, intramurals and bar review?

I'm talking about networking. This profession is really driven by personal relationships, not perfect recollection of the law.

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emhellmer
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:05 pm

JazzOne wrote:
NonTradHealthLaw wrote:
JazzOne wrote:That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.


Do you mean gossiping and bed-hopping, or more traditional networking, intramurals and bar review?

I'm talking about networking. This profession is really driven by personal relationships, not perfect recollection of the law.


I'll take that kind of petty over the sort of petty, elementary school nonsense I deal with at my job any day. Some days it's all I can do to keep my jaw attached to my face. That's the other reason I can't stay in this sector; what passes for acceptable professional behavior here would get you passively fired ("position eliminated") in any other industry. I fear that if I stayed in this sector much longer I would be rendered unsalvageable.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Skyhook » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:09 pm

Any of the older crowd currently in LS working a part time job as well?
Wondering if I can't do some adjunct/tutoring work once a week. ($ are tight)

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JazzOne
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:11 pm

Skyhook wrote:Any of the older crowd currently in LS working a part time job as well?
Wondering if I can't do some adjunct/tutoring work once a week. ($ are tight)

I've taught LSAT last semester. It was pretty tough, especially with OCI, callbacks, and 2L courses. I definitely would not recommend working during 1L.

stevededalus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby stevededalus » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:30 pm

JazzOne wrote:
NonTradHealthLaw wrote:
emhellmer wrote:I'm leaving behind a very steady, stable job that is known for turning go-getters into bleary eyed zombies who seek nothing more than following the HR manual and counting the days until retirement (guess in which sector I work :roll: ) Yes, some days I feel spoiled, and think "for all the mindless drudgery of this job, most people would kill for my hours, benefits, and stability." Other days I think "if I stay another day at this place I am going to become just as useless and dead as the rest of these people." Finally, I decided to take the plunge. THere's no doubt that a JD can open up doors that are just closed, period. It may take some scrabbling and creativity at first while we scream about paying back our student loans, but I decided to just go for it rather than stay in this life sucking job that is at the pinacle of my current career path.


Wow, summarized my feelings perfectly. We must be in the same sector - absolutely rewarding at times; other times completely stagnating.

I'm looking forward to the intellectual challenge - and being able to use my age as an excuse to avoid the inevitable social pettiness will just allow that much more time to be dedicated to learning this new language and method of thinking.

That's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, the social pettiness is what gets you jobs.

I've had a lot of these same thoughts at time. I'm trying to figure out how much of my desire to go to law school is to get away from a job that has become less fulfilling over time. I see law school and a legal career as an intellectual challenge, too. But I also fear that maybe I'm idealizing the legal track in that sense. As one lawyer said to me, go do Sudoku puzzles if you want an intellectual challenge.

Jazz and everyone else who's chimed in - I really appreciate all your thoughts. Have to weigh them against the opinions of all the other lawyers I've polled, and there seem to be a wide range of opinions on whether it's worth doing. I tend to find that those going back as a second career enjoy the profession more than those who went straight from undergrad, but my sample size is small.

There are people who believe that going to law school is only worth doing on full scholarship, others who believe it's only worth doing at T14 schools, others who say you can get a job from any school by networking and working your ass off. It's hard to know what's right for any of us without doing it. It's hard to know what the hiring market will be like in two years. But it's helpful to get insights from all who have gone through school already.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby YoungFogey » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:30 am

I haven't been around much in the past few years, but I'm in procrastination mode, so . . . :)

To balance out some of the experiences here, I'll say that being old absolutely helped me in OCI. I outperformed my grades (in the first OCI ITE, where callbacks were mostly a trickle because firms had no idea what their yields would be). I can go into more details about my strategy if people are interested.

OTOH, despite success on the job front, I don't know that I would repeat the experience. I'm in a ton of debt, which puts a lot of constraints on my future choices. And, in some ways, the law brings out the worst in me. It's very much a profession about perpetual ladder climbing. You have to have a strong sense of self to be able to say enough is enough and I am happy with what I have and don't need to keep chasing brass rings. I am fearful that I won't be able to strike the right balance.

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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:00 pm

homestyle28 wrote:[stuff about calculating dependent costs and schollys....] I'll definitely post what I hear.

Thank you!
And you know what, I should throw this out to the whole thread - if we were to put together something on TLS with resources/info for parents starting law school, what kinds of information would be most helpful? (I'm not sure this is a viable or useful idea, but it seems like I answer a lot of questions about "being a mom in law school" and figured maybe there was a place for it.) Post here or PM me!
:mrgreen:

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nygrrrl
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby nygrrrl » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:03 pm

Skyhook wrote:Any of the older crowd currently in LS working a part time job as well?
Wondering if I can't do some adjunct/tutoring work once a week. ($ are tight)

I work 25-35 hours/wk but I am in an evening (PT) program. Can't imagine balancing work with the FT program.

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kalvano
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby kalvano » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:06 pm

YoungFogey wrote: I can go into more details about my strategy if people are interested.



Yes, please. It seems so far away now, but August will be here before I know it.

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Leira7905
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Leira7905 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:11 pm

JazzOne wrote:
a_evans89 wrote:Jazz: Thanks for being so honest. I think I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and walk away from law school---if anyone needs a LGB in excellent shape or an unopened book of 10 PT's, I wont be needing them any longer...

I never know how to feel about comments like this. I don't want to dissuade anyone from following his dreams. My experiences may be atypical. All I can do is relay my experiences as honestly as possible. I hope you aren't deciding against law school based solely on my anecdotal evidence. Law school and OCI have a way of tearing people down, so my perspective might be a bit jaded. I try to be as objective as possible, and I'd be happy to answer any specific questions. Forgoing law school is probably your best bet, but I still feel guilty telling people that.


While it may be true that BigLaw (and even Mid-sized) career prospects are few and far between, these are not the only options out there for Lawyers. There's always the possibility of hanging your own shingle and going into business for yourself... I've been working for an attorney for the past three years who did just that. He worked in a small firm for a while post law school, then opened his own office. While, he doesn't make the high high salary of a BigLaw partner, he definately earns a comfortable living. He seems to feel law school was worth it, and incourages me to go despite my being in my thirties. Just sayin.

YoungFogey
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby YoungFogey » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:35 pm

kalvano wrote:
YoungFogey wrote: I can go into more details about my strategy if people are interested.



Yes, please. It seems so far away now, but August will be here before I know it.


Ok. :)
I was totally paranoid about OCI. I did not have a "power" resume and was concerned that being old (and a parent) was going to kill me. Here was my plan of attack:

1. Started networking 1L year by going to firm events and panels. I spoke with attorneys about their practice areas and about the business side of their firm (how was it structured, what did they like, what didn't they, what was the partnership track like, how was compensation decided, etc.). I asked a lot of "dumb" questions at this point. This kept me from asking/saying dumb things in interviews (for the most part).

2. Bid very strategically during OCI. I researched the hell out of firms beforehand -- I did not go by Vault rankings (though I did use the Vault guide for info), but instead looked for firms that had large practice groups in areas I thought I would be interested in. I also looked for indications that firms were "facetime" firms (something I did not want and knew I wouldn't be seen as a good fit for). I spoke to friends that were attorneys to get the inside scoop (you could also troll either your UG or LS alumni to do some of this).

3. Bid on multiple markets. I know some people say to concentrate bids, but I was getting feedback that some markets were getting hit harder and that there seemed to be a "type" for some markets -- I wanted to maximize my chances of not getting shut out.

4. Reached out before OCI to a smaller market that I had weak ties to. Cold contacted an alumn at one of the firms to talk about the legal market there. Sent letters indicating when I would be in town.

5. Hustled for extra interviews at OCI at hospitality suites. (Picked up several and got callbacks from all of them.)

6. Went to hospitality suites for all the firms I interviewed with and spoke with the attorneys staffing them (was able to talk about meeting someone back in 1L year at a panel -- it wasn't that I had developed a connection, but that I could demonstrate long-standing interest in the firm by giving that name).

7. Aggressively sold being "old" in my interviews. I had identified the red flags on my resume and generally sought to mitigate them in the interview before I was even asked about them. I sold myself as someone who had enough experience to know what I wanted (and didn't want), knew what working full-time was like, knew what it was like to be a client (not a legal client, but I was able to talk about it in a way that I could show an awareness of needing to keep client needs in mind even as a junior associate), knew what it was like to be a manager, knew what it was like to be a subordinate, etc. I was also (I think :D ) personable and enthusiastic (in a restrained way) in the interviews. I made sure going in that I knew how to talk about what experience I had gained in my 1L job. I tried to answer questions about myself in a way that would show what I could bring to the table that would be valuable to them.

8. Scheduled callbacks so that some of firms I was least excited about were first. I screwed up a couple of my first callbacks. I was glad they were with firms that were not as good of a fit for me. I took stock of what I did wrong, and how I could fix it.

I think that's about it :)




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