OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT) Forum

[er doctor]

nygrrl and firemed suggested that I check out this thread and I am so glad that they did. I enjoy the younger folks' threads but it is also nice to see folks talking about things like renting out houses, finding places to live that are family friendly, schools and the whole concept of should I leave my current career and really do this. I am a 41 y.o. surgeon in TX that wants to study and practice law.....perhaps in a field that will utilize my medical training and experience or perhaps not. I took the LSAT 20 years ago in College and will be taking again this June with an eye towards possibly applying in the fall. So glad to have found this thread

Hey there! Rapidly approaching 40 y/0 ER doctor here who is leaving his job to attend law school this year. PM me if you'd like to hear my perspective on the admissions process. Welcome to the (very small) MD/JD club!

[canuckofchicago]

Hello everyone,

It has been awhile since I posted here. I thought I would take time out of my work day to get some advice from people in my age group (32+). My situation is this. I am Canadian newly married to an American (Chicago) who is coming to live in Canada for a couple of years.

We were talking about the next 2 - 5 years. If we should go back to Chicago within in the next two years and I go to a school in Chicago or stay in Canada and attend one of our law schools here. With the legal market so unstable and the cost going through the roof is it best to stay and get a JD from one of our best law schools or take the plunge and attend one of the schools in Chicago.

All opinions are welcomed. If you need more information please let me know.

Thanks
Richard

[Lisi]

mdwannabejd - a lot of younger people probably don't understand that when you're older (and thinking of doing something new), you've probably already given thought to the idea that you're older. The post you included in this thread seems to be almost telling you: by the way, you're 40. Um.... really? Imagine that ! I've spent the past few years teaching very bright undergraduates, and, frankly, some of them can be total know-it-alls simply because they don't have enough experience under their belts to realize that they don't know everything and should probably shy away from making sweeping generalizations about people in general, people they don't know, and the goals of people they don't know. A lot of people on this website go on and on about Big Law, which I find interesting (since many of these people have never worked anything close to the number of hours they will be working if they go into Big Law). Anyway, at the NYU ASW, I asked the dean in charge of PI (and other panel members) why it is that so few students actually go into PI. The response was basically two-fold: 1) private firms (and Big Law) are easier to get in the sense that it takes less individual planning and initiative to find a job with them if you are otherwise qualified, and 2) a lot of students are addicted to prestige and perceived accomplishment, which becomes naively associated with money and firm name. This attitude is perceivable in the response you got and posted in this thread. The respondent addressed your chances for Big Law (as though that would be the obvious route from law school) and the idea that the MD/MBA/JD would be really cool. Most people who have worked for higher degrees don't think about them as a diploma sitting on their office wall. There's just a sort of silliness to that kind of interpretation of your career trajectory and interests. What is nice about this thread is that people think through questions like lifestyle and individual goals (and are also very supportive!). I find that TLS provides a lot of young people with the opportunity to air their insecurities in round-about ways. When you're not aware that that is what is going on, posts can seem really harsh and sometimes rude. It took me a little while to adjust my attitude toward certain types of posts on TLS.

[nygrrrl]

And again, watching how you're all welcoming mdwannabejd into the mix?
I. Love. This. Thread.

(Lisi? Beautiful. Wish I'd read that when I first got to TLS )

[oldhippie]

lisi-
so well said! i think most of the kids on tls have good intentions and really believe that they know what is best for everyone else. problem is, they're young and are just barely figuring out what's best for them, and they have almost no grasp of the idea that they really don't know what other people have been through or how other people's experiences have impacted them and the decisions they make. i know that when i was 22, i had NO CONCEPT of what i'd be doing at 38 (or what anyone else would be doing) so there's just no way on earth i could have helped someone older than me figure those things out. (but i sure did THINK i had all the answers, oh yes indeedy!)

which is why this thread is the bomb!!!

[notanumber]

Lisi, your post should be required reading for everybody venturing into the TLS thicket. Thanks!

I just want to echo the idea that it's not just that most folk here are young, but it's also that they've mostly traveled straight through (prestigious) colleges and have never really come up for air and surveyed their surroundings. There's nothing wrong with that, and it can lead to great success, but it does tend to give one a rather limited idea of what constitutes that success (money and prestige). The people here have great insight into the ins and outs of the admissions process, but it's not necessarily the best place to turn to for life advice or to express one's interests in non-normative pathways.

canuckofchicago: I suspect that there isn't very many people here who know about differences between Canadian and U.S. schools when it comes to job prospects. Perhaps you could find people who currently have the kind of job you want (in both Canada and the U.S.) and ask them for advice? My totally uninformed guess would be that a Canadian school like McGill or Toronto would be a good bet for a job in Canada and would be an overall better bet than any Chicago school except UChicago and Northwestern, and may still be a better idea depending on the cost. But that's baseless speculation.

[Leira7905]

Okay, so I put down my seat deposit, and now I'm freaking out just a little. I have been working towards going to law school for about a decade. It took me almost that long to finish my undergrad while raising a child as a single mother and working pretty much full time. I have been working as a paralegal for the last five years trying to soak up as much legal knowledge as I can. I got into the school I wanted, and have been so excited to be finally reaching my goal. But... looking at the amount of debt I'm about to take on (100K) is starting to really scare me. I mean, I knew that this would be the case, but until now it was a hypothetical debt. Now that I'm about to do it, and it's real, I'm worried. I'll be 35 when I graduate from LS, if I wind up paying on this debt for the next 30 years, I'll be at retirement age by the time it's paid off! Not only that, but my daughter is going to be 10 this summer. In just a few short years I'll be paying for her car/college/wedding. When I think about it I feel like I can't breathe.

LS is what I want. Texas is the school I want/need (I can't leave this state because of my daughter). But the debt is giving me cold feet.

Anyone else freaking out more about this as it gets closer to "go time"?

[sarahh]

lisi-
so well said! i think most of the kids on tls have good intentions and really believe that they know what is best for everyone else. problem is, they're young and are just barely figuring out what's best for them, and they have almost no grasp of the idea that they really don't know what other people have been through or how other people's experiences have impacted them and the decisions they make. i know that when i was 22, i had NO CONCEPT of what i'd be doing at 38 (or what anyone else would be doing) so there's just no way on earth i could have helped someone older than me figure those things out. (but i sure did THINK i had all the answers, oh yes indeedy!)

which is why this thread is the bomb!!!

Yes, I don't know how people can know what they want to do when they have never worked. I am glad I took a few years to figure it out. What I find particularly amusing are the people who complain about when they become lawyers how "little" they will have left over after they pay their rent and loans - little being something like $5,000 a month. Working for a non-profit, you learn how to live a moderate lifestyle.

[Stringer Bell]

Okay, so I put down my seat deposit, and now I'm freaking out just a little. I have been working towards going to law school for about a decade. It took me almost that long to finish my undergrad while raising a child as a single mother and working pretty much full time. I have been working as a paralegal for the last five years trying to soak up as much legal knowledge as I can. I got into the school I wanted, and have been so excited to be finally reaching my goal. But... looking at the amount of debt I'm about to take on (100K) is starting to really scare me. I mean, I knew that this would be the case, but until now it was a hypothetical debt. Now that I'm about to do it, and it's real, I'm worried. I'll be 35 when I graduate from LS, if I wind up paying on this debt for the next 30 years, I'll be at retirement age by the time it's paid off! Not only that, but my daughter is going to be 10 this summer. In just a few short years I'll be paying for her car/college/wedding. When I think about it I feel like I can't breathe.

LS is what I want. Texas is the school I want/need (I can't leave this state because of my daughter). But the debt is giving me cold feet.

Anyone else freaking out more about this as it gets closer to "go time"?

I'm freaking out to an extent as well. We're pretty close in age. I'll be headed to UVA with a scholly for about 1/3 of the tuition. Fortunately I won't have much debt when I graduate due to savings and my SO likely being able to work, but it is pretty scary when I think about the fact that my financial position at 34 will be about the same as it was at around 23.

[sarahh]

Okay, so I put down my seat deposit, and now I'm freaking out just a little. I have been working towards going to law school for about a decade. It took me almost that long to finish my undergrad while raising a child as a single mother and working pretty much full time. I have been working as a paralegal for the last five years trying to soak up as much legal knowledge as I can. I got into the school I wanted, and have been so excited to be finally reaching my goal. But... looking at the amount of debt I'm about to take on (100K) is starting to really scare me. I mean, I knew that this would be the case, but until now it was a hypothetical debt. Now that I'm about to do it, and it's real, I'm worried. I'll be 35 when I graduate from LS, if I wind up paying on this debt for the next 30 years, I'll be at retirement age by the time it's paid off! Not only that, but my daughter is going to be 10 this summer. In just a few short years I'll be paying for her car/college/wedding. When I think about it I feel like I can't breathe.

LS is what I want. Texas is the school I want/need (I can't leave this state because of my daughter). But the debt is giving me cold feet.

Anyone else freaking out more about this as it gets closer to "go time"?

I had a mini panic attack last week about turning down a full scholarship for a school where I will be paying sticker and wondered if I could change my mind. I had to remind myself of why I made that choice in the first place.

I don't think you will be paying the loans for 30 years. Also, if you don't have the cash, your daughter can figure out a way to finance her car/college/wedding.

[firemed]

Hello everyone,

It has been awhile since I posted here. I thought I would take time out of my work day to get some advice from people in my age group (32+). My situation is this. I am Canadian newly married to an American (Chicago) who is coming to live in Canada for a couple of years.

We were talking about the next 2 - 5 years. If we should go back to Chicago within in the next two years and I go to a school in Chicago or stay in Canada and attend one of our law schools here. With the legal market so unstable and the cost going through the roof is it best to stay and get a JD from one of our best law schools or take the plunge and attend one of the schools in Chicago.

All opinions are welcomed. If you need more information please let me know.

Thanks
Richard

So I applied to (and got into) several Canadian schools. I still wish I could've found a way to go to Dal.


Anyway, what I have learned is this: You go to law school in Canada then there is a 98% chance you will spend your entire career in Canada. The only exceptions I know of are McGill, U of T, and UBC grads who sometimes find jobs in either NYC or, in the case of UBC, Seattle. Some also get jobs in Asia, apparently.

So... if you go to school in Canada, be prepared for the likely eventuality you will spend the rest of your career there.

Of course, Canada has huge upsides: no glut of lawyers flooding the market like we do here, good economy, and for you as a Canadian citizen the really big upside: very low tuition costs. That was actually what held me back: international tuition was too high to take in US student loans.


Also, unlike here you seriously have a 90+% chance of a job after graduation... even if you went to the worst law school in all of Canada.

Sigh.

[firemed]

Okay, so I put down my seat deposit, and now I'm freaking out just a little. I have been working towards going to law school for about a decade. It took me almost that long to finish my undergrad while raising a child as a single mother and working pretty much full time. I have been working as a paralegal for the last five years trying to soak up as much legal knowledge as I can. I got into the school I wanted, and have been so excited to be finally reaching my goal. But... looking at the amount of debt I'm about to take on (100K) is starting to really scare me. I mean, I knew that this would be the case, but until now it was a hypothetical debt. Now that I'm about to do it, and it's real, I'm worried. I'll be 35 when I graduate from LS, if I wind up paying on this debt for the next 30 years, I'll be at retirement age by the time it's paid off! Not only that, but my daughter is going to be 10 this summer. In just a few short years I'll be paying for her car/college/wedding. When I think about it I feel like I can't breathe.

LS is what I want. Texas is the school I want/need (I can't leave this state because of my daughter). But the debt is giving me cold feet.

Anyone else freaking out more about this as it gets closer to "go time"?

Oh yes.... "go time" is freaking me the eff out.

But I am going to do it anyway. Thank G-d I have learned some courage over the past decade. I think I figured something out too: true courage is doing it anyway. These young kids have no real idea of the downsides, not really... so it is easy for them to be courageous.

Anyway, I just wanted to say this: This is your dream. Don't let it die. Which one will your daughter be more proud of? Mom the JD, or Mom the paralegal? And what will doing this show her about having the courage to follow your dreams?

[mdwannabejd]

pkt63, lisi, oldhippie, notanumber and Sarahh....Y'all rock! Thanks for helping me to interpret the comments of some of the posters on my other thread who were not even born when I was in college.

CanuckofChicago - I am a dual citizen and have lived in both countries. I would never move back to Canada for a variety of reasons...but that's just me. The information that you have received is correct. Y'all need to answer the very difficult question of where you want to live and raise your kids. US or Canada? Whichever one you decide you should go to law school in that country. My free advice (and you get what you pay for is that y'all should decide where you want to live for the next 20 years and then choose law schools. If you do the opposite and choose where you want to live based on the law schools you get into...you might be unhappy in 5 or 10 years. I got into Univ of Toronto law school in 1991 (I only applied to one law school) but chose to go to Medical School instead. Either way both Toronto and Chicago are GREAT cities to choose from. Let me know if you have any other questions and I will try to give you my perspective on living and practicing in the two countries.

[canuckofchicago]

Hey MD,
Thanks for your advice.

If it is not to personal perhaps you can tell me why wouldn't you move back to Canada?
I think what I am trying to debate is justifying the cost of an American law school with employment prospects not being so great. Being in either country wouldn't be a problem (no kids in the foreseeable future).

So if you can give me some insight to the advantages, even in this economic climate, to attending an American law school that would be great. Is attending a state school like Northern Illinois University who charges in-state tuition, which I would receive, because of my wife and through my landed immigrant status, would be worth attending.

Thanks and I hope to have some more conversations with you on this subject.
Richard

[mdwannabejd]

Hey MD,
Thanks for your advice.

If it is not to personal perhaps you can tell me why wouldn't you move back to Canada?
I think what I am trying to debate is justifying the cost of an American law school with employment prospects not being so great. Being in either country wouldn't be a problem (no kids in the foreseeable future).

So if you can give me some insight to the advantages, even in this economic climate, to attending an American law school that would be great. Is attending a state school like Northern Illinois University who charges in-state tuition, which I would receive, because of my wife and through my landed immigrant status, would be worth attending.

Thanks and I hope to have some more conversations with you on this subject.
Richard

Hey Richard,

IMO, the US offers much more opportunity and a much better way of life than Canada....but this is a very personal decision that is based partly on the fact that I despise socialized medicine and since I am a subspecialty surgeon this is important to me.

Since I am spent most of my life in the medical field, I really can't speak intelligently about job prospects in law. Sorry! I am learning about this just as you are. The only useful (in my opinion information that I can give you to help you decide is to reiterate that I believe you should decide whether you want to live in the US or Canada and then choose a law school in that country rather than vice versa. No matter what others might tell you....Canadian firms and Canadian clients want lawyers that graduated from Canadian schools (exceptions of YHS etc of course). US firms and US clients, by and large, want lawyers that graduated from US schools (there will always be a few exceptions of course). Good luck!

[ArghItsBlarg]

Okay, so I put down my seat deposit, and now I'm freaking out just a little. I have been working towards going to law school for about a decade. It took me almost that long to finish my undergrad while raising a child as a single mother and working pretty much full time. I have been working as a paralegal for the last five years trying to soak up as much legal knowledge as I can. I got into the school I wanted, and have been so excited to be finally reaching my goal. But... looking at the amount of debt I'm about to take on (100K) is starting to really scare me. I mean, I knew that this would be the case, but until now it was a hypothetical debt. Now that I'm about to do it, and it's real, I'm worried. I'll be 35 when I graduate from LS, if I wind up paying on this debt for the next 30 years, I'll be at retirement age by the time it's paid off! Not only that, but my daughter is going to be 10 this summer. In just a few short years I'll be paying for her car/college/wedding. When I think about it I feel like I can't breathe.

LS is what I want. Texas is the school I want/need (I can't leave this state because of my daughter). But the debt is giving me cold feet.

Anyone else freaking out more about this as it gets closer to "go time"?

You're definitely not alone. With my luck, I'll be taking the bar on my 35th birthday. I'm scared to death about quitting my job (legal assistant) to go to law school full time and incurring $100-$125k of debt and posted a small panic attack of my own a few pages back. The chances are very good, however, that the debt will realistically be repaid within 10-15 years (and with IBR the debt should be forgiven after 25 years regardless). My kids are younger than yours, but don't forget, you can make the little varmints earn their keep. I didn't have my own car until after I was married, couldn't even get my license until I could independently afford to pay for my insurance. College (at a prestigious university) was almost all scholarships due to need and merit, and my wife and I shouldered 90% of our wedding costs.

A perk of growing up not-rich was that my wife and I both are very fiscally responsible. We had our undergrad loans paid off within a year of graduation, carry no debt and have a lot of savings put aside for a rainy day. Law school will be our rainy day, but there is a very strong chance that we'll get a nice rainbow at the end to make up for it.

[Leira7905]

You're definitely not alone. With my luck, I'll be taking the bar on my 35th birthday. I'm scared to death about quitting my job (legal assistant) to go to law school full time and incurring $100-$125k of debt and posted a small panic attack of my own a few pages back. The chances are very good, however, that the debt will realistically be repaid within 10-15 years (and with IBR the debt should be forgiven after 25 years regardless). My kids are younger than yours, but don't forget, you can make the little varmints earn their keep. I didn't have my own car until after I was married, couldn't even get my license until I could independently afford to pay for my insurance. College (at a prestigious university) was almost all scholarships due to need and merit, and my wife and I shouldered 90% of our wedding costs.

A perk of growing up not-rich was that my wife and I both are very fiscally responsible. We had our undergrad loans paid off within a year of graduation, carry no debt and have a lot of savings put aside for a rainy day. Law school will be our rainy day, but there is a very strong chance that we'll get a nice rainbow at the end to make up for it.

I don't disagree with you on this point at all. I know that making my daughter responsible for herself financially as a teen/young adult isn't the worst thing in the world. I guess some part of me feels a lil guilty about it though. Hopefully, I will be successful in LS and in my career and it won't be something I'll have to worry about in the future. It's all the "what ifs" that are scary.

[ArghItsBlarg]

On the plus side, the "What Ifs" have made me lose about 10lbs over the past five weeks thanks to stress! It's the law school diet!

[Leira7905]

On the plus side, the "What Ifs" have made me lose about 10lbs over the past five weeks thanks to stress! It's the law school diet!

For me it's the opposite... I eat when I'm stressed

[firemed]

On the plus side, the "What Ifs" have made me lose about 10lbs over the past five weeks thanks to stress! It's the law school diet!

For me it's the opposite... I eat when I'm stressed

I almost totally overshared here. Thank goodness I caught myself in time.

[legal10101]

I completely understand the freaking out about now you are jumping in with both feet. I on the other hand am waitlisted at 3 schools!!!!!!!!!! This is torture, not just for me, but my husband, mother and father. Oh did I mention I sold my house and moved in with my parents at 30. We are in seperate living quarters, but still.


AND NO ADMITS YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[firemed]

I completely understand the freaking out about now you are jumping in with both feet. I on the other hand am waitlisted at 3 schools!!!!!!!!!! This is torture, not just for me, but my husband, mother and father. Oh did I mention I sold my house and moved in with my parents at 30. We are in seperate living quarters, but still.


AND NO ADMITS YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That must totally suck. Sorry! Hope you get off the WL soon.

[kaelgrai]

Hey Everyone,
1- I love this thread so much I actually joined this forum to post, after initially reading other threads that seemed to be from mostly young-uns.
2 - Congrats to everyone who made it into their LS of choice, and those who made their respective LS their choice.
3 - I'm looking to advice on what to do:

I'm 32, living in San Francisco, rent free with the parents (in an in-law unit). This is mostly due to the fact that I've been working on a "startup" (no-pay) software company making software for tax accountants (think TurboTax on steroids) for the last several years. I also have a BA in immunology, with a few years working in gene therapy (this will be a second career shift, if you don't count food service work).

I'm working on a transition to IP & business law so I can work with other startups, and VC clients, possibly building to a business incubator-type of organization.

I've been accepted to Santa Clara, USF, and Rutgers-Camden so far. WL at Chicago-Kent, and Emory. Still waiting on 30 or so schools thanks to my broke fee-waivers. No's from my top choices (UCB, Stanford, Yale, etc)

Money-wise USF wins hands-down (no rent, easy commute, great scholarship), leaving me about 50k in the hole. Reputation-wise I get a somewhat meh feeling, which means I need to really bust ass to for a top seat.

Santa Clara is seems to be best by reputation in Silicon Valley, and is possibly the best of my options for what I think I want to do, but would leave me about $150k in the hole.

USF and SCU would let me maintain my bay area network, and let me continue to work on the board of my fave non profit, plus possibly give a helping hand to my company come 2L and 3L.

Rutgers has a national reputation, which is great in case I totally flip and decide I really really want to sue people instead of building businesses. Their offer was pretty generous, leaving me about $80k in the hole if I play it right.

Rutgers would put me in an entirely new area, which is frankly kind of exciting, but doesn't seem to be as strong in my currently intended areas.

Or, I could retake the LSAT to try to improve on my 160, which I'm fairly confident I could do. This would also give me time to tie off some loose ends and potentially get my company sold.

So, anyone have thoughts?

Thank you for your time, and thanks everyone for making this thread so enjoyable to read.

gabe

[kaelgrai]

Oh, one more thing for you folks with kids:
my mom went to Hastings at 36, with three kids, and at least one of grew up to seem normal and well-adjusted.
My dad did work a second job, and I slept in a giant cardboard box in our tiny apartment (by choice), but we made it as a family. When my mom finally stopped doing pro-bono work, we lived decently, moved into a proper house, and lived happily ever after.

that is until I had to grow up. . .

[sarahh]

Kaelgrai, are you interested in working in Silicon Valley after graduating? I would not go to Rutgers unless you want to work in New Jersey. Yeah, most people have heard of Rutgers, but I don't think their law schools have a strong national reputation. If you want to work in California, people are probably going to wonder why the heck you went there. I would retake the LSAT. Hopefully you could raise your score enough so that you could get into Hastings or Davis or perhaps even Berkeley or Stanford. What is your GPA? If it is low, that will restrict where you can get in even if you kill the LSAT.