OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

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bmathers
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby bmathers » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:14 pm

For anyone with experience, do you find that being in your 30s when graduating law school, along with maturity and previous non-law work/professional experience, gives you a bit of a leg-up compared to a mid-20s KJD (or close to it)?

I just tend to think that a 50 y/o partner in a small-mid firm may be more inclined to give the 35 y/o a shot compared to the 25 y/o. Am I too wrong?

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BVest
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby BVest » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:37 pm

It varies widely from firm to firm. I think it did help me in the mid-size firm I'm in now, but overall I underperformed in the job search relative to my numbers (top 10% at T20 school). Biglaw definitely has a bias at a certain point, though I couldn't say if it's an age thing or a family thing; I understand the thinking -- they want drones they can work to death for a few years and people who have either (a) already done that grind in their prior careers and moved past it, or (b) have kids that they might want to see or plan vacations with once in a while are less likely to put up with that. For midlaw it was definitely a help with some firms while other firms didn't seem comfortable with the idea of a 40+ first-year.

Disclosure: started school in 30s, graduated in 40s. And admittedly, I wasn't as geographically flexible in my search as many of my classmates and chose a tighter legal market (because I've lived here for >20 years now), but even among those in my market I underperformed a bit.

ookoshi
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ookoshi » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:27 am

bmathers wrote:For anyone with experience, do you find that being in your 30s when graduating law school, along with maturity and previous non-law work/professional experience, gives you a bit of a leg-up compared to a mid-20s KJD (or close to it)?

I just tend to think that a 50 y/o partner in a small-mid firm may be more inclined to give the 35 y/o a shot compared to the 25 y/o. Am I too wrong?


What employers are weighing is the maturity that comes along with age versus the person being more set in their ways. Also, (in most cases) the 35 y/o is going to struggle more from operating on 4 hours of sleep 6 nights a week, in a firm where the hours create that kind of life balance. I agree with the previous post, in that it varies by employer, but I think that biglaw is more likely to see it as a disadvantage.

Me: Graduating next month @ 38 y/o -> biglaw, but I'm going into patent law, where people with PhD's and previous work experience is commonplace. I did really well at the IP job fair, but for OCI interviews where they were hiring for non-IP practice groups, I felt my age was a disadvantage.

Outside of biglaw, I don't think it matters as much.

Alive97
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby Alive97 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:22 am

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Last edited by Alive97 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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haus
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby haus » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:08 pm

Alive97 wrote:Any other DC part timers in here?

close... I am a part-time student, I work in Arlington (live way out in Loudoun) although my school is not in DC or even close for that matter.

JC2017
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby JC2017 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:16 pm

What's up old(er) people? I learned some fun new words on the TLS thread yesterday - Flexin and Stuntin. Apparently they both refer to bragging on the social medias. Indeed, these are the things we can look forward to learning from our young soon-to-be fellow 1Ls. Please contain your excitement, and don't be flexin too hard on the FB about law school yo. 8)

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obligatorysnark
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby obligatorysnark » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:55 pm

Any other 30-somethings heading to Brooklyn Law PT? It was a really tough decision because I loved Fordham, but ultimately the fiscally responsible choice won me over. Ten years ago, I would have taken on the debt. Now, with plans to start a family shortly after I graduate in 2021, I just can't imagine owing $160k in loans.

It's funny how priorities change...

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dannyswo
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby dannyswo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:47 am

DJDJTX wrote:
Mjvance2 wrote:My wife and I live in Houston, and I plan to attend UT in Austin. (2.5 hours away). She's thinking of staying in Houston, at least for my 1L year, and then moving to Austin for the rest of my time there.

Are there any of you who are married and have families living in a different city?


I'm 40, w/small kids. I live in Austin, can't move. I couldn't go to UT (even if I got in) because they only have a F/T program. 2M people in the greater Austin metro area and we have one law school option. I have to wait for an out of state hybrid JD program that makes sense or a weekend program in state to pop up. I'm prepared to fly (or drive) in and out of DFW or Houston if necessary but odds are not good for me. I'm pretty disappointed.

Just switch families during the week, this has TV show written all over it.

BabyDoc2JD
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby BabyDoc2JD » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:45 pm

Well, how did I miss this thread for the last half year. I guess i have been focused on getting into a T13. Now that I have done that I can panic about getting myself and my kids moved. 54 year old single parent to three boys. Physician going back to law school. Yes, the healthcare system has taken another victim and I have decided to go back to school. Perhaps policy and constitutional law will be more rewarding than finding ways to improve satisfactions scores for telling people how to take their medications. Have to decide if I send a deposit to Duke or Michigan this week all the while hoping Harvard takes me off the waiting list. Good thing my children are very flexible. Any advise on how to remain focused and fatherly is welcome. :D

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DJDJTX
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby DJDJTX » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:08 pm

Just switch families during the week, this has TV show written all over it.


Intriguing possibilities with this scenario indeed...

GHH-t
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby GHH-t » Thu May 04, 2017 5:05 pm

BabyDoc2JD wrote:Well, how did I miss this thread for the last half year. I guess i have been focused on getting into a T13. Now that I have done that I can panic about getting myself and my kids moved. 54 year old single parent to three boys. Physician going back to law school. Yes, the healthcare system has taken another victim and I have decided to go back to school. Perhaps policy and constitutional law will be more rewarding than finding ways to improve satisfactions scores for telling people how to take their medications. Have to decide if I send a deposit to Duke or Michigan this week all the while hoping Harvard takes me off the waiting list. Good thing my children are very flexible. Any advise on how to remain focused and fatherly is welcome. :D


I went to law school straight out of undergrad and am now 46 with over 20 years of practice and have been fortunate to do some fun and personally rewarding work over those years (big firm and government). Even so, I joke with my wife (a law professor) about chucking it all and going to med school, Harvard MBA, or becoming a sommelier. The grass is always greener.

As far as law school, my older colleagues and students (I'm also an adjunct professor at a local law school) who treated law school class prep like a regular 9-5 job did pretty well. Until gearing up for finals, take a day off every week to recharge (do activities with your sons). I had an Orthodox Jewish classmate who killed it in law school despite being prohibited from doing more than 6 days a week, so it's possible and may be an advantage.

Why are you thinking about going to law school (what do you mean by policy and constitutional)? The MD/JDs that I know of tend to do med mal or medical products litigation, some are in IP. They do very well, but work all the time and don't seem happy. If you're thinking government or non-profits, make sure you get out with the least amount of debt possible. Being a prosecutor or public defender is fun, but the pay (particularly the first few years) is terrible. A state school may be a better choice, even though less prestigious. If you want to go to a think tank, your MD experience plus any law degree will get you there.

I can tell you more about my experiences (big law and public sector) via PM. But make sure you are very clear on your after law school goals before you make what's probably at least a half-million dollar decision (tuition + 3 years of lost MD income). Even if you've put down a deposit, it's not too late to reevaluate. And if you're looking for life satisfaction, a career coach may be able to come up with a less drastic solution.

And besides, you'll always be able to tell people you got in and chose not to go. All the prestige and none of the pain.

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kalvano
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby kalvano » Mon May 08, 2017 9:03 am

BabyDoc2JD wrote:Well, how did I miss this thread for the last half year. I guess i have been focused on getting into a T13. Now that I have done that I can panic about getting myself and my kids moved. 54 year old single parent to three boys. Physician going back to law school. Yes, the healthcare system has taken another victim and I have decided to go back to school. Perhaps policy and constitutional law will be more rewarding than finding ways to improve satisfactions scores for telling people how to take their medications. Have to decide if I send a deposit to Duke or Michigan this week all the while hoping Harvard takes me off the waiting list. Good thing my children are very flexible. Any advise on how to remain focused and fatherly is welcome. :D


I really really really don't think a total career change at 54 is a good idea, unless you're already set for retirement, law school won't impact those retirement finances, and you're OK never working in policy or constitutional law (because there is a much higher chance you'll never get anything related to those jobs than that you will).

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dannyswo
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby dannyswo » Tue May 09, 2017 5:50 pm

BabyDoc2JD wrote:Well, how did I miss this thread for the last half year. I guess i have been focused on getting into a T13. Now that I have done that I can panic about getting myself and my kids moved. 54 year old single parent to three boys. Physician going back to law school. Yes, the healthcare system has taken another victim and I have decided to go back to school. Perhaps policy and constitutional law will be more rewarding than finding ways to improve satisfactions scores for telling people how to take their medications. Have to decide if I send a deposit to Duke or Michigan this week all the while hoping Harvard takes me off the waiting list. Good thing my children are very flexible. Any advise on how to remain focused and fatherly is welcome. :D

Which way did you decide?

consideringlaw24
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby consideringlaw24 » Tue May 16, 2017 2:19 pm

Time for me to jump in here...I'll be 34 when I apply to law school next year. Currently working full time and studying for the LSAT and trying to be a decent mom to my preschooler. I also have a medical issue that's well controlled until it's really not. I've only recently started to accept that I need to factor this into my life more and choose carefully for myself because of this.

There are two schools I'm interested in - one is my local law school, and one is a T14 school. I want to practice in the state I'm now located in, but I'm open to practicing elsewhere. Our local law school is very well regarded here, very affordable, loved by its students, and places well in the local legal market. The T14 would a much more portable degree, but would involve a cross country relocation for my family. Law will be my third career, and I know myself well enough to know that the law might not be my thing forever and I have no desire to work in biglaw. So the local law school is much lower risk for me.

I have lots of time to decide but these are my thoughts right now.

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dannyswo
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby dannyswo » Wed May 17, 2017 4:45 am

consideringlaw24 wrote:Time for me to jump in here...I'll be 34 when I apply to law school next year. Currently working full time and studying for the LSAT and trying to be a decent mom to my preschooler. I also have a medical issue that's well controlled until it's really not. I've only recently started to accept that I need to factor this into my life more and choose carefully for myself because of this.

There are two schools I'm interested in - one is my local law school, and one is a T14 school. I want to practice in the state I'm now located in, but I'm open to practicing elsewhere. Our local law school is very well regarded here, very affordable, loved by its students, and places well in the local legal market. The T14 would a much more portable degree, but would involve a cross country relocation for my family. Law will be my third career, and I know myself well enough to know that the law might not be my thing forever and I have no desire to work in biglaw. So the local law school is much lower risk for me.

I have lots of time to decide but these are my thoughts right now.

Don't let the kids on the forum talk you into moving. Collectively there is a lot of good advice on TLS for 22 -24 year olds entering law school, and when all you've got on your resume is school, you love to talk about how great your school is. I think you're better off staying local unless you're really interested in moving and living somewhere different. That can be it's own reward. However, having a local network of friends and family is incredibly valuable. I don't see it in terms of risk, but also best possible life outcome.

consideringlaw24
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby consideringlaw24 » Wed May 17, 2017 10:58 am

dannyswo wrote:
consideringlaw24 wrote:Time for me to jump in here...I'll be 34 when I apply to law school next year. Currently working full time and studying for the LSAT and trying to be a decent mom to my preschooler. I also have a medical issue that's well controlled until it's really not. I've only recently started to accept that I need to factor this into my life more and choose carefully for myself because of this.

There are two schools I'm interested in - one is my local law school, and one is a T14 school. I want to practice in the state I'm now located in, but I'm open to practicing elsewhere. Our local law school is very well regarded here, very affordable, loved by its students, and places well in the local legal market. The T14 would a much more portable degree, but would involve a cross country relocation for my family. Law will be my third career, and I know myself well enough to know that the law might not be my thing forever and I have no desire to work in biglaw. So the local law school is much lower risk for me.

I have lots of time to decide but these are my thoughts right now.

Don't let the kids on the forum talk you into moving. Collectively there is a lot of good advice on TLS for 22 -24 year olds entering law school, and when all you've got on your resume is school, you love to talk about how great your school is. I think you're better off staying local unless you're really interested in moving and living somewhere different. That can be it's own reward. However, having a local network of friends and family is incredibly valuable. I don't see it in terms of risk, but also best possible life outcome.


Thanks, your thoughts mirror my own. I made a huge move out here for graduate school back in the day when I was 23, and it was a grand adventure, but I was single with no attachments and the idea of striking out on my own was very cool. Nowadays, I just think of how we'd move or sell our enormous patio table and I shudder. It's the little (or huge) things...Plus we really do have a life here, not to mention family. My kid is very happy in her school, and I'm going to law school party for her anyway.

Anyway, thanks for the response and the encouragement.

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ashrice13
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ashrice13 » Wed May 17, 2017 11:52 am

I know this conversation was from awhile ago but just reading throug this thread now. I have a full ride, my partner makes over 40k, and I'm still taking out loans. Not really sure where people live that they can afford rent, utilities, food, gas, health insurance, and car payments with insurance all for two people on 40k but I want to move there.

Edit: I'm 29 so I'll see myself out of this 30+ club for another year...I just wanted to throw it out there that taking out loans in this situation isn't ridiculous or the result of bad habits. It's, at least in my case, just the result of being older and financially independent.

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dannyswo
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby dannyswo » Wed May 17, 2017 12:08 pm

ashrice13 wrote:I know this conversation was from awhile ago but just reading throug this thread now. I have a full ride, my partner makes over 40k, and I'm still taking out loans. Not really sure where people live that they can afford rent, utilities, food, gas, health insurance, and car payments with insurance all for two people on 40k but I want to move there.

Edit: I'm 29 so I'll see myself out of this 30+ club for another year...I just wanted to throw it out there that taking out loans in this situation isn't ridiculous or the result of bad habits. It's, at least in my case, just the result of being older and financially independent.

You have to cheat by having no taste. One year in college I ate grilled cheese (fake cheese, the Kraft slices) every meal for the entire year. When you're single you can rent a room in a three bedroom. You can take the bus. Gas? That's for cooking. Shower at the school gym after your work outs. Health insurance through the school. Make your own coffee. Drive a cheap car, reduce your insurance to liability only. Move close enough to school to walk. It's all the little stuff.

Honestly, I don't know how I did it when I was first starting out. I think I just didn't do anything or go anywhere.

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ashrice13
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby ashrice13 » Wed May 17, 2017 2:13 pm

dannyswo wrote:
ashrice13 wrote:I know this conversation was from awhile ago but just reading throug this thread now. I have a full ride, my partner makes over 40k, and I'm still taking out loans. Not really sure where people live that they can afford rent, utilities, food, gas, health insurance, and car payments with insurance all for two people on 40k but I want to move there.

Edit: I'm 29 so I'll see myself out of this 30+ club for another year...I just wanted to throw it out there that taking out loans in this situation isn't ridiculous or the result of bad habits. It's, at least in my case, just the result of being older and financially independent.

You have to cheat by having no taste. One year in college I ate grilled cheese (fake cheese, the Kraft slices) every meal for the entire year. When you're single you can rent a room in a three bedroom. You can take the bus. Gas? That's for cooking. Shower at the school gym after your work outs. Health insurance through the school. Make your own coffee. Drive a cheap car, reduce your insurance to liability only. Move close enough to school to walk. It's all the little stuff.

Honestly, I don't know how I did it when I was first starting out. I think I just didn't do anything or go anywhere.

Yeah, I guess the living close enough to walk thing would be helpful...no car payment, insurance, or gas. My problem is that my boyfriend can't move near my school because he has to be within so many miles of the town where he works. It's much much cheaper for me to live far away with him and pay to commute than it would be for me to move into the city and pay for rent all on my own.

I'm also ready and willing to eat like a 14 year old. Point me towards eternal bloating via raman diet plz

consideringlaw24
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby consideringlaw24 » Thu May 18, 2017 10:12 am

ashrice13 wrote:I know this conversation was from awhile ago but just reading throug this thread now. I have a full ride, my partner makes over 40k, and I'm still taking out loans. Not really sure where people live that they can afford rent, utilities, food, gas, health insurance, and car payments with insurance all for two people on 40k but I want to move there.

Edit: I'm 29 so I'll see myself out of this 30+ club for another year...I just wanted to throw it out there that taking out loans in this situation isn't ridiculous or the result of bad habits. It's, at least in my case, just the result of being older and financially independent.


If you're 29, you're in your 30th year of life, right?

My city is very affordable, but 40K is definitely stretching things. It's about what we had ten years ago, and prices have just gone up since then. I foresee loans in my future for stuff like laptops, books, travel or semester exchanges, even if I did get a full ride. So I agree that loans for basic necessities to do your job/study are not the result of bad habits.

gwillygecko
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby gwillygecko » Thu May 18, 2017 2:15 pm

Checking in..im going to NU in the fall and am in my early 30s. Im switching from finance to law, and want to do litigation. And as mentioned before, super excited about how well my cycle went and super excited about getting started this fall!!

consideringlaw24
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby consideringlaw24 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:57 am

gwillygecko wrote:Checking in..im going to NU in the fall and am in my early 30s. Im switching from finance to law, and want to do litigation. And as mentioned before, super excited about how well my cycle went and super excited about getting started this fall!!


Congratulations and good luck! Your enthusiasm is infectious; I'm also feeling excited about my switch to law (applying for next fall).

lmb38
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby lmb38 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:08 pm

consideringlaw24 wrote:Time for me to jump in here...I'll be 34 when I apply to law school next year. Currently working full time and studying for the LSAT and trying to be a decent mom to my preschooler. I also have a medical issue that's well controlled until it's really not. I've only recently started to accept that I need to factor this into my life more and choose carefully for myself because of this.

There are two schools I'm interested in - one is my local law school, and one is a T14 school. I want to practice in the state I'm now located in, but I'm open to practicing elsewhere. Our local law school is very well regarded here, very affordable, loved by its students, and places well in the local legal market. The T14 would a much more portable degree, but would involve a cross country relocation for my family. Law will be my third career, and I know myself well enough to know that the law might not be my thing forever and I have no desire to work in biglaw. So the local law school is much lower risk for me.

I have lots of time to decide but these are my thoughts right now.


Hi everyone. :D

Checking in here. Very similar to consideringlaw24 - I'm looking at applying for fall of 2018 and will be 34 by that time. Also similar, I have a condition that is usually well controlled but occasionally acts up, and requires medication and generally access to decent healthcare.

All that said, does anyone here have experience in vetting schools by their offered health insurance? I'm single, so no spousal insurance option. All the recent happenings in congress re: ACA/AHCA have made me very nervous about the possibility of needing to rely on medicaid or exchange subsidies. I was hoping to have Univ of Washington as my #1 choice, but apparently as of a few years ago they don't even offer a health plan anymore. Just instruct students to stay on their parents' or get free/cheap insurance through the state exchange. Very disheartening, to say the least. I have no idea what the school's situation might be if ACA gets repealed.

Any thoughts/advice?

consideringlaw24
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby consideringlaw24 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:23 pm

lmb38 wrote:Hi everyone. :D

Checking in here. Very similar to consideringlaw24 - I'm looking at applying for fall of 2018 and will be 34 by that time. Also similar, I have a condition that is usually well controlled but occasionally acts up, and requires medication and generally access to decent healthcare.

All that said, does anyone here have experience in vetting schools by their offered health insurance? I'm single, so no spousal insurance option. All the recent happenings in congress re: ACA/AHCA have made me very nervous about the possibility of needing to rely on medicaid or exchange subsidies. I was hoping to have Univ of Washington as my #1 choice, but apparently as of a few years ago they don't even offer a health plan anymore. Just instruct students to stay on their parents' or get free/cheap insurance through the state exchange. Very disheartening, to say the least. I have no idea what the school's situation might be if ACA gets repealed.

Any thoughts/advice?


I wasn't even aware that schools offered insurance. I guess I didn't even look into it because I figured we'd be going right to the exchange (my spouse's plan is both crappy AND expensive, whereas our exchange options are less crappy and less expensive). My #1 choice school just tells students to get the Medicaid plan.

Insurance issues aside for a moment, is your medical condition affecting which schools you would choose? For example you couldn't consider School A even if its plan was good because of your condition? I probably need to be a little more realistic about my choices considering some of my limits.

lmb38
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Re: OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT)

Postby lmb38 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:47 pm

consideringlaw24 wrote:
lmb38 wrote:Hi everyone. :D

Checking in here. Very similar to consideringlaw24 - I'm looking at applying for fall of 2018 and will be 34 by that time. Also similar, I have a condition that is usually well controlled but occasionally acts up, and requires medication and generally access to decent healthcare.

All that said, does anyone here have experience in vetting schools by their offered health insurance? I'm single, so no spousal insurance option. All the recent happenings in congress re: ACA/AHCA have made me very nervous about the possibility of needing to rely on medicaid or exchange subsidies. I was hoping to have Univ of Washington as my #1 choice, but apparently as of a few years ago they don't even offer a health plan anymore. Just instruct students to stay on their parents' or get free/cheap insurance through the state exchange. Very disheartening, to say the least. I have no idea what the school's situation might be if ACA gets repealed.

Any thoughts/advice?


I wasn't even aware that schools offered insurance. I guess I didn't even look into it because I figured we'd be going right to the exchange (my spouse's plan is both crappy AND expensive, whereas our exchange options are less crappy and less expensive). My #1 choice school just tells students to get the Medicaid plan.

Insurance issues aside for a moment, is your medical condition affecting which schools you would choose? For example you couldn't consider School A even if its plan was good because of your condition? I probably need to be a little more realistic about my choices considering some of my limits.


Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it until a couple weeks ago, when it dawned on me that I may need to make considerations based on the health care situation. The AHCA passing the house made the reality sink in.

From the bit of research I've done, it looks like most schools do have insurance (student health insurance plan, or SHIP). But, it looks like it varies widely. Some are group plans through major insurance companies, some are simply that all your care is free via the on-campus health center. And UW is none of the above - you're on your own. But, I believe that is the least common scenario and only happened because of the ACA making insurance much more affordable and accessible. It also looks like most schools require you to have insurance - you can only opt out of their school plan with proof of you having equivalent or better coverage.

Honestly, I'm not totally sure yet on your last question. I think I need to look into it more, and possibly contact a few schools to ask specific questions. Basically, I need to have a few prescriptions, monitoring blood tests, occasional physical therapy, and a specialist visit a couple of times yearly. So, I think most of those things would be covered by SHIPs since they are pretty basic services. But I want to be super cautious, because it would be terrible to rely on the exchange and then part way into school lose that insurance. That might mean having to transfer or drop out. I need to have a plan B. But I think that the services I need are basic enough to be covered by most plans, so I just need to make sure that 1) the school has a SHIP and 2) it covers those few things, at a reasonable cost. I think I'd be too nervous to attend a school that doesn't offer any insurance though.

EDIT: ok sorry, re-read your last question and think I understand a bit better haha. No, I don't think so. I have inflammatory arthritis (autoimmune). On a bad day, I'm pretty averse to stairs haha. And colder climates are tough. But nothing that's impossible to work around. I'm hesitant to go to schools in more rural areas that wouldn't have as many specialists available; I've been spoiled in my current area that has thriving healthcare! So overall, it doesn't have too much effect on things.




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