Penn State Law

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tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:20 pm

Take the $32k offer. That's almost full ride. I got a similar offer and I took it, and I don't regret it one bit. I'm in the top 10% and could have transferred up if I wanted to, but why would I when Drexel offers an excellent education and I'm going to school almost for free?

Ignore beach_terror's comments - he or she sounds like a 1L at Villanova who, being located all the way out on the Main Line, probably doesn't make it to many of the Philadelphia Bar Association events to talk to actual lawyers in Philly. Honestly, Temple and Drexel are the name of the game in Philly now. These are the two law schools tied to large, well known research universities located a stone's throw from all the law firms in Center City. I would rather go to Rutgers-Camden than Villanova. The location itself is a huge downside - isolated in the snobby mainline.

If you heard any stories about grads being unable to find jobs, it's because the market sucks right now for everyone. If you are in the bottom of your class ANYWHERE you will have a tough time. I have a summer internship already lined up with the Appeals Unit of the Federal Defender Office, which is about as prestigious an internship as you can in a criminal appellate context, one of my desired practice areas. I have absolutely no interest in big corporate law firms so I don't know much about that, though I do know a number of 3L's last year who graduated and got biglaw gigs. Either way, don't listen to a 1L at Villanova who just finished his Torts exam a few weeks ago. He is still trying to learn the layout of his campus, and likely doesn't understand the Philly legal market at all. Drexel is a big name in Philly and commands a lot of respect.

LSATclincher
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby LSATclincher » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:23 pm

I don't think Penn St is right the option if you solely want to practice in Philly. Temple, Nova, and Rutgers-C will have the advantage. I'd even argue a few Widener grads could have an advantage over Penn St'ers if they were able to land internships in Philly which turned into full time jobs.

That being said, if you have an open mind about where you would like to practice, I think Penn St. is good law school in the state of PA. If you really want to be in Philly, you might have to find some summer internships in the city, so it would help if you have a place to stay during that time.

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:24 pm

tarp wrote:
Ignore beach_terror's comments - he or she sounds like a 1L at Villanova who, being located all the way out on the Main Line, probably doesn't make it to many of the Philadelphia Bar Association events to talk to actual lawyers in Philly. Honestly, Temple and Drexel are the name of the game in Philly now. These are the two law schools tied to large, well known research universities located a stone's throw from all the law firms in Center City. I would rather go to Rutgers-Camden than Villanova. The location itself is a huge downside - isolated in the snobby mainline.


Yeah you know, or I heard it from employers directly. Employer "Why did you go to Drexel, that was a foolish gamble" Student: " :oops:". Also, talking to your CSO, this seems to be true. Otherwise, your co-op program would translate into actual offers. But it doesn't.

And seriously being 20 minutes from the city is a downside? Yeah, right... you must be missing a chromosome to think that. And Nova apparently is one of the few Philly T2's that has firms coming to 1L OCI (with actual spots available for just 1Ls).

If class ranking stays the same between the two schools, I'd rather be top 10/20/30/50% at Villanova than at Drexel. Especially because our LR kids are getting Biglaw still (which is something to be proud of, ITE).

Also, having an alumni base is kind of important for networking.

LSATclincher
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby LSATclincher » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:29 pm

Even as a Drexel undergrad, I could not see the value in going to their law school with so many better options in and around the city. You cannot overstate the value of a good alumni base (which Drexel will have in the future, but not now).

tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:31 pm

beach_terror wrote:Yeah you know, or I heard it from employers directly. Employer "Why did you go to Drexel, that was a foolish gamble?" Student: " :oops:". Also, talking to your CSO, this seems to be true. Otherwise, your co-op program would translate into actual offers.

And seriously being 20 minutes from the city is a downside? Yeah, right... you must be missing a chromosome to think that. And Nova apparently is one of the few Philly T2's that has firms coming to 1L OCI (with actual spots available for just 1Ls).


You heard it from employers directly? So you are a Drexel graduate who spoke with an employer who said to you "Why did you go to Drexel, that was a foolish gamble?" Considering that you are a 1L at Villanova, that doesn't sound like a plausible scenario. Did you mean to say you heard it in third person from a Drexel grad?

Oh, and Villanova is only 20 minutes from the city at 1 AM if you hit every light when it's green.

Oh, and about OCI - don't drink the Kool-Aid. OCI is a gimmick used by very few firms.

Anyway, you can do your OCIs and kiss ass and end up working 70 hour weeks for someone doing soul-crushing document review or dry memorandums... I'll stick to opening my own firm, interacting directly with clients, being my own boss, doing socially responsible and beneficial work and making money on my own. Unlike many, I did not come to law school as a quick way to make a buck. I came because of a deep interest in social justice and helping people.

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:35 pm

tarp wrote:You heard it from employers directly? So you are a Drexel graduate who spoke with an employer who said to you "Why did you go to Drexel, that was a foolish gamble?" Considering that you are a 1L at Villanova, that doesn't sound like a plausible scenario. Did you mean to say you heard it in third person from a Drexel grad?

Oh, and Villanova is only 20 minutes from the city at 1 AM if you hit every light when it's green.

Oh, and about OCI - don't drink the Kool-Aid. OCI is a gimmick used by very few firms.

Anyway, you can do your OCIs and kiss ass and end up working 70 hour weeks for someone doing soul-crushing document review or dry memorandums... I'll stick to opening my own firm, interacting directly with clients, being my own boss, doing socially responsible and beneficial work and making money on my own. Unlike many, I did not come to law school as a quick way to make a buck. I came because of a deep interest in social justice and helping people.

First, I heard it through a Drexel 3L that I know who was in the top 5%. He did not get the job (guess what school the firm hired from? :))

Second, I never stated what I want to do.

Third, way to toot you're own horn. News flash, nobody cares what you want to do kid. The real world's gonna crush you, I don't think I need to. Enjoy the malpractice suits and fighting for DUIs in an overcrowded market dominated by Temple, Rutgers, and Villanova grads. If opening a law firm after graduating from a law school was a legitimate option, there'd be a bunch more around. Also, good luck getting the start up capital to invest in research resources (hence the malpractice suits if you actually get any legitimate work though)

Fourth, why would you drive to Philly from Villanova. Train bro, train.

But seriously, good luck I hope it works out for you. I stand by my statement: Drexel is not a smart investment for law school - Villanova and Temple are the better choice.

ran12
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby ran12 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:44 pm

Is Drexel even fully accredited yet?

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:46 pm

tarp wrote:He is still trying to learn the layout of his campus, and likely doesn't understand the Philly legal market at all. Drexel is a big name in Philly and commands a lot of respect.

Yeah I mean, I don't know a handful of big partners in Philly firms (many of whom I went to high school with their children).

Also Drexel engineering commands a lot of respect. Outside of that, Drexel is a standard philly UG.

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:47 pm

ran12 wrote:Is Drexel even fully accredited yet?

Nope. Not that the accreditation process is difficult. However, opening a law school in a crowded market during a recession doesn't exactly reflect well on the planner's intelligence :wink:

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:53 pm

Tarp, you must have gotten rejected from Villanova and are very sore about it.

Who's Drexel's alumni base? The only one that I can think of that's decent is Chiddy Bang. Oh wait, they went to Drexel's undergrad.

Also, if Drexel was so much better than Nova why the hell would the rankings put Nova up at T2 (former T1) while Drexel is drowning in the TTTTToliet?

As for the poster, just go to random law firm website and try searching for lawyers based on law school. I'm willing to say you can rarely find a drexel grad.

Lastly, Tarp can only say Drexel is better than Nova right now because he was able to do WELL (of course if he is not bullshitting). What will you do if you chose to take the $$ and go to Drexel but fucked up tremendously and hugged median? I'd probably kill myself. I'd rather be hugging the median at a higher ranked school than hugging median at a TTTTTToliet.

Numbers don't lie Tarp.

tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:57 pm

You really lack even basic knowledge about how the practice of law works. If you knew anything about the realities of the practice of law, you would know that legal malpractice cases are extremely rare. Your statement "good luck getting the start up capital to invest in research resources" is laughable. What do you mean by "research resources"? A membership at the Jenkins law library? Do you even know what the Jenkins Law Library is and have you ever been to it? Are you referring to access to Westlaw (available on a pay-per-use model) or Google Scholar (which is free and has caselaw from all 50 states and every federal circuit)? Do you even realize that most practicing attorneys - especially trial attorneys - do not spend much time doing raw database research, since case law is pretty well covered in treatises for most areas of the law? That's the first rule of legal research - always start with a good secondary source. You will learn this during the second semester of Legal Writing in which you are currently enrolled.

On another note - your attitude and tone really make you out to be an arrogant person. No wonder you are sitting in front of the computer by yourself on a Saturday night. Newsflash: Philly has lots of great bars that law students go out to on weekend nights when they aren't studying. Of course, the train from Villanova only runs every hour or so, and stops running around 10 or 11 PM, so you'd need to take a cab.

Also, nice try with calling me a "kid". Do you even know my age? I actually am a father and I am probably much older than you. If I was your age, kid, and not a married man with a child and living in suburbs, I would be out barhopping in University City or Old City, not talking trash on the Internet. Of course you probably haven't gone out to any of those places, choosing instead to surf TLS. Oh yeah, also... start-up capital isn't an issue since I worked for years, founded my own technology company, and saved money. You see, unlike you, I did not go straight from undergrad to law school with a chip on my shoulder and no real-world experience. And thanks for your concern about my future prospects, but I actually am not planning on practicing in Philly at all, and I am not planning on practicing DUI defense. If you have any doubts about the feasibility of starting your own firm or working in a small firm (which is what the vast majority of lawyers do), read the book "How to Start and Build a Law Practice" available from the ABA.

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:00 pm

tarp wrote:No wonder you are sitting in front of the computer by yourself on a Saturday night. Newsflash: Philly has lots of great bars that law students go out to on weekend nights when they aren't studying. Of course, the train from Villanova only runs every hour or so, and stops running around 10 or 11 PM, so you'd need to take a cab.

I actually am a father and I am probably much older than you.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

LSATclincher
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby LSATclincher » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:03 pm

I'll just add something to this and move on. I'm not taking any sides because I'm not a fan of the law school concept to begin with. But one of my LOR's is from an undergrad business professor at Drexel. We communicate often through e-mail. I ran a msg by him asking for his opinion on a few things. I mentioned the possibility of me applying to Drexel's law school (thinking he'd toss me a generic "yea, go for it!"). He did not address my question in his reply.

tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:07 pm

nooyyllib wrote:Tarp, you must have gotten rejected from Villanova and are very sore about it.

Who's Drexel's alumni base? The only one that I can think of that's decent is Chiddy Bang. Oh wait, they went to Drexel's undergrad.

Also, if Drexel was so much better than Nova why the hell would the rankings put Nova up at T2 (former T1) while Drexel is drowning in the TTTTToliet?

As for the poster, just go to random law firm website and try searching for lawyers based on law school. I'm willing to say you can rarely find a drexel grad.

Lastly, Tarp can only say Drexel is better than Nova right now because he was able to do WELL (of course if he is not bullshitting). What will you do if you chose to take the $$ and go to Drexel but fucked up tremendously and hugged median? I'd probably kill myself. I'd rather be hugging the median at a higher ranked school than hugging median at a TTTTTToliet.

Numbers don't lie Tarp.


I actually did get accepted by Villanova, as well as many other higher-ranked schools. I actually attended Mason law for a semester before coming to Drexel (at Mason I attained a 3.3 GPA and top 25% ranking), and as someone who attended a Tier 1 school then switched to Drexel, I will be the first to say that rankings are bullshit when used to gauge the quality of education you will receive. The professors are far more stimulating and the curriculum is just as challenging at Drexel as at Mason. The rankings are a rough indicator, but not the holy grail. Also, Drexel is unranked by USNWR because the school is too new to be ranked. When it is first ranked, I'll bet you it will be ranked higher than Villanova. And

Also, considering that Drexel has only been around for a few years, of course going to a "random law firm website" and searching for lawyers based on law school will rarely result in finding a Drexel grad.

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Bro, main line girls put a lot of Philly trash to shame. And yeah, I'm a huge fucking loser for being sick. I'm not arrogant, I think I just have a better handle on the legal market in my home town.

I'll be at the Philly Law Party next weekend, I'd be happy to debate in person. Not e-thugging, I'm being serious. That's fine if Drexel works out for you, but realize over 50% of the students there will not secure the type of legal employment they want to (and that's being generous). Therefore, telling someone to "take the scholly" offer is a stupid.

FWIW, I asked Drexel directly to give me their OCI and 3L firm offer information. After much resistance, she finally sent it through. It was bleak. Villanova's (which was easier to get) looked considerably better.

Also, http://www.martindale.com to compare alumni bases.

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:10 pm

LSATclincher wrote:I'll just add something to this and move on. I'm not taking any sides because I'm not a fan of the law school concept to begin with. But one of my LOR's is from an undergrad business professor at Drexel. We communicate often through e-mail. I ran a msg by him asking for his opinion on a few things. I mentioned the possibility of me applying to Drexel's law school (thinking he'd toss me a generic "yea, go for it!"). He did not address my question in his reply.


On a serious note, just look at the rankings/numbers. IMO, law school scholly shouldn't be the main factor determining your decision. Law school is a serious investment (financially) so you need to rather look at the potential possibilities the law school of your choice can provide you.

I just looked at TLS' section on rankings/TTT/TTTT profiles and I couldn't even find Drexel. What does that tell me? I should stay the hell away despite the 32k.

Why do you think they are offering you the 32k? Also, have you even been to Nova's new building? I'm positive that if the rankings are continued to be released, Nova's new building + incredibly intelligent new dean might possibly shoot it up the rankings.

(If you even thought about this) if you want to transfer, for example, being a top 5% at Nova will give you a better shot at getting to a t14 than being a top 5% at Drexel.

Lastly, Nova's distance from Philly itself is IRRELEVANT. This is the modern age, we have trains, cars, and airplanes. Firms can EASILY come to schools and students can EASILY go to firms for interviews.

On a side note, Nova has some exposure in DC as well as NYC. As for Drexel, I highly doubt it.

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:13 pm

tarp wrote:Also, considering that Drexel has only been around for a few years, of course going to a "random law firm website" and searching for lawyers based on law school will rarely result in finding a Drexel grad.


That's the WHOLE POINT why the poster SHOULDN'T go to Drexel! LOL. Alumni base is HUGE when it comes to getting jobs.

Also, I have NO IDEA WHY you would EVER downgrade in transferring; but to be honest YOU MADE A STUPID move. GMU has supringly good placement in the Northern VA and DC (I can say this because I'm FROM Northern VA).

If you are not lying about transferring from GMU to Drexel, I am seriously concerned for you.

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:16 pm

beach_terror wrote: That's fine if Drexel works out for you, but realize over 50% of the students there will not secure the type of legal employment they want to (and that's being generous).


50%??! LOL lets be real, even at Nova the bottom half isn't guaranteed jobs, imagine what its like at Drexel.

tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:18 pm

I don't think there is any sort of rivalry going on between Villanova and Drexel. They are both good law schools located in the same region. You will find that professors and faculty at Villanova are supportive of Drexel and vice versa. I recently was in contact with the great people at the Villanova Farm Worker Legal Aid Clinic. We took on a case for a client who was previously represented by that clinic, and they helped us out a lot.

My intention here was to provide some insight to someone who asked about law schools in the Philly market. I do not wish to stick around and argue with a bunch of people who have not yet attended law school, or someone who has barely finished a single semester of law school and professes to understand the inner workings of the legal job market. If anyone has any questions about Drexel law, feel free to PM me. My final remark is that, in my view, the quality of legal education at Drexel is excellent, and the Philadelphia legal community has been extremely supportive of the new school. Anyone who has the opportunity to attend Drexel with a significant scholarship will not regret attending.

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:20 pm

tarp wrote:I do not wish to stick around and argue with a bunch of people who have not yet attended law school, or someone who has barely finished a single semester of law school and professes to understand the inner workings of the legal job market.

True, it's extremely difficult to learn objective information that's widely available.

dr allen pearl
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby dr allen pearl » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:30 pm

this is a Penn State discussion... please take this argument elsewhere.

stayway
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby stayway » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:55 pm

Tarp, thanks for the PM.

Btw.
--ImageRemoved--

tarp
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby tarp » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:58 pm

On another note - 2009, the first year Drexel had a graduating class, it beat Villanova by three points on its bar passage rate.
2010 was a different story, with Villanova beating Drexel by four points but Drexel still being far from the lowest scoring school on the PA bar.

My point is, if Drexel is such a terrible school, how could the FIRST graduating class beat such established schools as Duquesne, Penn State, Rutgers-Camden, Pittsburgh, Villanova, and Widener in their bar passage rates? Only Temple and Penn beat Drexel, and Temple was by a less-than-one-percentage-point margin. This is pretty damn impressive for the FIRST graduating class EVER at a brand new school.

So if an "alumni network" is the key consideration, by all means stay away from Drexel (however keep in mind, many lawyers in the Philly area were Drexel undergrads). But if you think you will magically land a job because the interviewer graduated from the same law school, you are in for a huge surprise. Most interviewers are more interested in what experience you got at your internships and externships, which courses you were most interested in and how well you did, and your general charisma and social skills. Either way, right now is a terrible time to find a job in any market. The economy stinks. That does not reflect on the quality of the legal education at Drexel, which I can attest is excellent.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:21 pm

tarp wrote:On another note - 2009, the first year Drexel had a graduating class, it beat Villanova by three points on its bar passage rate.
2010 was a different story, with Villanova beating Drexel by four points but Drexel still being far from the lowest scoring school on the PA bar.

My point is, if Drexel is such a terrible school, how could the FIRST graduating class beat such established schools as Duquesne, Penn State, Rutgers-Camden, Pittsburgh, Villanova, and Widener in their bar passage rates? Only Temple and Penn beat Drexel, and Temple was by a less-than-one-percentage-point margin. This is pretty damn impressive for the FIRST graduating class EVER at a brand new school.

So if an "alumni network" is the key consideration, by all means stay away from Drexel (however keep in mind, many lawyers in the Philly area were Drexel undergrads). But if you think you will magically land a job because the interviewer graduated from the same law school, you are in for a huge surprise. Most interviewers are more interested in what experience you got at your internships and externships, which courses you were most interested in and how well you did, and your general charisma and social skills. Either way, right now is a terrible time to find a job in any market. The economy stinks. That does not reflect on the quality of the legal education at Drexel, which I can attest is excellent.


I thought you are a 2L?

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beach_terror
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Re: Penn State Law

Postby beach_terror » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:23 pm

tarp wrote:On another note - 2009, the first year Drexel had a graduating class, it beat Villanova by three points on its bar passage rate.
2010 was a different story, with Villanova beating Drexel by four points but Drexel still being far from the lowest scoring school on the PA bar.

My point is, if Drexel is such a terrible school, how could the FIRST graduating class beat such established schools as Duquesne, Penn State, Rutgers-Camden, Pittsburgh, Villanova, and Widener in their bar passage rates? Only Temple and Penn beat Drexel, and Temple was by a less-than-one-percentage-point margin. This is pretty damn impressive for the FIRST graduating class EVER at a brand new school.

The bar has nothing to do with finding a job, unless you can't pass it. Further, the bar reflects minimum competency in the profession and law school doesn't prepare you for it. Therefore, having more people pass the bar has absolutely nothing to do job prospects outside erecting the minimum competency barrier to entering the profession. Nobody said Drexel kids are dumb, just that they face a lot more difficulty in the job market than necessary - much more than a Temple or Villanova grad. Therefore, for someone who wants to work in Philadelphia, Temple or Villanova is the better choice. This isn't rocket science, it's pretty straightforward.




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