ABA actually warns against law school

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Lwoods
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Lwoods » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:02 pm

r6_philly wrote:While I am here, I just found out a friend of a friend is a biglaw associate here in Philly that came out of Villanova. He works long hours but makes good money, even after counting taxes and loan payments. I don't know what his class rank was, but there are some success stories around.


If you look on his firm's website, it'll probably have a short bio that will list things like law review and latin honors.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:11 pm

Lwoods wrote:
r6_philly wrote:While I am here, I just found out a friend of a friend is a biglaw associate here in Philly that came out of Villanova. He works long hours but makes good money, even after counting taxes and loan payments. I don't know what his class rank was, but there are some success stories around.


If you look on his firm's website, it'll probably have a short bio that will list things like law review and latin honors.


Good call. I forgot what firm, but I will look it up later for inspiration.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 pm

r6_philly wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
Sentry wrote:
bostonian wrote:What happened to going into a career because it actually interests you and not only considering how much you'll make in the first five years?

If there's a career that let's you play video games and flag football all the time let me know.


You know, when I graduated from college I was interested in getting a liberal arts Ph.D. The overwhelming advice I heard was "That's great, and I would love to do anything I can to help! BTW, don't even consider a school that doesn't offer you a full 5 year fellowship and make sure that you love your field of study enough to spend the rest of your life studying it." Perhaps students considering law school should take a similar approach.


So what now, full scholly or bust?


For me, yeah. I'm still looking at about $50,000 in loans for COL. That's an additional ~$350 a month in payments according to my calculations.

Well, this attitude regarding liberal arts Ph.Ds comes from the following facts:
1. While there are colleges professors who make a lot of money, it takes time and a lot of hard work to be one of them.
2. The odds that you will be one of those who makes a lot of money are slim.
3. You will actually be lucky to get an adjunct teaching position.
4. You will never be happy being a Ph.D. in any field if you don't like that field, and you will probably not be successful.
5. 5+ years of graduate school tuition plus paying for housing adds up.

With those facts in mind, thousands of students still compete mightily every year for spots in these Ph.D. programs. I'd say it is even more competitive than getting into law school. Not all of them get fellowships, I'm sure. But all are cautioned from the get go that they really need to consider what they are doing and make sure it is what they want to do and that they are doing it for the right reasons and have taken a realistic look at the financial risks v. rewards. For that reason, I think, there are far fewer students going into Ph.D. programs, far fewer programs in each discipline, etc. No one is forcefully limiting the amount of Ph.D. programs on the market; the students being realistic about their options have done that. I think that those who look at law school may want to take a similar approach. Understand that the odds of you making a lot of money upon graduation are slim and make sure that you like the field that you are going into. This is common sense in other areas of study; just not for law and maybe it should be.

Too often law is seen as a default option for kids who are good at reading and don't know what else to do with themselves. Hence the last 19 pages of prospective and current law students saying that law school is a terrible idea.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:14 pm

bk1 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
On the other hand, aren't in-house testers paid like shit with little opportunity for advancement?


Yes. But the original question did not mention high-paying as part of the criteria.

Software testers, security/QA review get paid a lot more, but it's more boring.


My comment was in reference to:

emhellmer wrote:work as a beta tester for a video game company... in line for promotions and raises, etc.


The promotions/raises thing seemed odd to me.


He was happy with the pay. I was under the impression that he wasn't rich by any means, but considering he made a living playing video games, he was fairly ecstatic. You can still get raises and promotions, but I'm sure managers have a bit more responsibility (boring work) and the raises might be less. Either way, there is a career where you can play video games all day, and several of us on here know people who do it and love it. Considering that lawyers are by and large one of the most miserable groups of professionals on the planet (despite the high pay), it may be worth taking a look at other career options if you aren't sure reading boring documents 12 hours a day is your thing.

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ResolutePear
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:17 pm

Where there are sheep, there must be a Shepard.

People,

I am a pear.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:21 pm

bk1 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
On the other hand, aren't in-house testers paid like shit with little opportunity for advancement?


Yes. But the original question did not mention high-paying as part of the criteria.

Software testers, security/QA review get paid a lot more, but it's more boring.


My comment was in reference to:

emhellmer wrote:work as a beta tester for a video game company... in line for promotions and raises, etc.


The promotions/raises thing seemed odd to me.


Also, my point about him being up for promotions and raises was to illustrate the fact that this guy who I had always considered to be, well, um, lazy (like I said, C- average and five years to graduate) found a job that he loved and worked hard at; so much so that he was very sucessful. Also, FYI, he was a liberal arts major.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:45 pm

emhellmer wrote:
bk1 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
On the other hand, aren't in-house testers paid like shit with little opportunity for advancement?


Yes. But the original question did not mention high-paying as part of the criteria.

Software testers, security/QA review get paid a lot more, but it's more boring.


My comment was in reference to:

emhellmer wrote:work as a beta tester for a video game company... in line for promotions and raises, etc.


The promotions/raises thing seemed odd to me.


Also, my point about him being up for promotions and raises was to illustrate the fact that this guy who I had always considered to be, well, um, lazy (like I said, C- average and five years to graduate) found a job that he loved and worked hard at; so much so that he was very sucessful. Also, FYI, he was a liberal arts major.


OMG, waiting to hear from law schools=spending way too much time on this site=driving me mad!

I felt inspired to google my old college friend and just found him on Linkedin. Um...he's in the same industry, his official titles are increasingly impressive sounding, and he appears to be doing VERY WELL for himself. Looks like it's time to drop a "thinking of you" e-mail :idea:

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bk1
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:46 pm

emhellmer wrote:OMG, waiting to hear from law schools=spending way too much time on this site=driving me mad!

I felt inspired to google my old college friend and just found him on Linkedin. Um...he's in the same industry, his official titles are increasingly impressive sounding, and he appears to be doing VERY WELL for himself. Looks like it's time to drop a "thinking of you" e-mail :idea:


Definitely. You might need him to help you break into that industry after your scamblog about law school fails to strike it big.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 am

bk1 wrote:
emhellmer wrote:OMG, waiting to hear from law schools=spending way too much time on this site=driving me mad!

I felt inspired to google my old college friend and just found him on Linkedin. Um...he's in the same industry, his official titles are increasingly impressive sounding, and he appears to be doing VERY WELL for himself. Looks like it's time to drop a "thinking of you" e-mail :idea:


Definitely. You might need him to help you break into that industry after your scamblog about law school fails to strike it big.


?????

By stating that one shouldn't go to law school simply because they can't think of anything else to do and pointing out that there ARE alternative career options that some may find preferable, I am somehow involved in the business of "scamming"? How does that work? Also, you may have me confused with someone else; I don't have a blog, much less one that generates revenue.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby joemoviebuff » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:23 pm

emhellmer wrote:
bk1 wrote:
emhellmer wrote:OMG, waiting to hear from law schools=spending way too much time on this site=driving me mad!

I felt inspired to google my old college friend and just found him on Linkedin. Um...he's in the same industry, his official titles are increasingly impressive sounding, and he appears to be doing VERY WELL for himself. Looks like it's time to drop a "thinking of you" e-mail :idea:


Definitely. You might need him to help you break into that industry after your scamblog about law school fails to strike it big.


?????

By stating that one shouldn't go to law school simply because they can't think of anything else to do and pointing out that there ARE alternative career options that some may find preferable, I am somehow involved in the business of "scamming"? How does that work? Also, you may have me confused with someone else; I don't have a blog, much less one that generates revenue.


RC fail.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
bk1 wrote:
emhellmer wrote:OMG, waiting to hear from law schools=spending way too much time on this site=driving me mad!

I felt inspired to google my old college friend and just found him on Linkedin. Um...he's in the same industry, his official titles are increasingly impressive sounding, and he appears to be doing VERY WELL for himself. Looks like it's time to drop a "thinking of you" e-mail :idea:


Definitely. You might need him to help you break into that industry after your scamblog about law school fails to strike it big.


?????

By stating that one shouldn't go to law school simply because they can't think of anything else to do and pointing out that there ARE alternative career options that some may find preferable, I am somehow involved in the business of "scamming"? How does that work? Also, you may have me confused with someone else; I don't have a blog, much less one that generates revenue.


RC fail.


Eh...I was unfamiliar with the term "scamblog" as it relates to law school. I just googled it. No, I don't have a scamblog, and I still think that going to any kind of graduate professional school is a terrible idea unless you REALLY like what you are going to be studying and REALLY want a career in that profession.

EDIT: I guess I have just been shocked by the number of "scamblog-ish" reports from people who seem to have 1. gone to graduate school for the wrong reasons in the first place, 2. expect that $160,000 a year right after graduation is normal in any economy, and 3. seem to think that ANY degree will come with automatic professional guarantees.

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bk1
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:22 pm

I was being sarcastic, which of course the internet doesn't convey very well.

I was implying that you (like many grads) would be unemployed after law school and thus start a scamblog. This scamblog wouldn't make you enough money and then you'd need this friend's help to find a job, so sending him a message now would be a good idea.

Joke fail, I guess.




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