ABA actually warns against law school

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r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:36 pm

Sinra wrote:Today, correction from the Times:

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: January 11, 2011

An earlier version of this article misstated the educational history of Jason Bohn, a recent law school graduate. While Mr. Bohn took classes at Columbia Law School, his law degree is from the University of Florida. And while nearly all of his student loan debt was accumulated at Columbia University, it was incurred while he was an undergraduate and while working on a master’s degree, and not at Columbia Law.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

Mr. Bohn responded on First Tier Toilet. Posted same on the thread in the admissions forum since there was so much back and forth about this and I was curious myself for the factual accuracy of Mr. Bohn's story.


:roll: like the Times don't fact check. Like I said, the article is about as worthy as the law school reports.

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Sinra
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:46 pm

r6_philly wrote:
:roll: like the Times don't fact check. Like I said, the article is about as worthy as the law school reports.


I have some friends who are journalists and let's just say most of them are much more interested in elbow-rubbing with the important people and celebs. Most of them jump from specialty to specialty (food critic becomes city council correspondent!) and the whole profession is terribly incestuous. They all intermarry etc. And they are, for the most part, phenomenally dumb.

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Sinra
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:06 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Well, I guess this is where I man up and say my bad.

My bad.


Thanks, dude. :D I was mostly interested in what the real story was. Like I'm sure if Mr. Segel had looked he would have been able to find more than one CLS grad that was having trouble as well. These stories seem to focus so much on people that go to lower-tier schools for the most part where they could stand to benefit from explaining that not doing too well at a top school is almost as bad.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:12 pm

Sinra wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
:roll: like the Times don't fact check. Like I said, the article is about as worthy as the law school reports.


I have some friends who are journalists and let's just say most of them are much more interested in elbow-rubbing with the important people and celebs. Most of them jump from specialty to specialty (food critic becomes city council correspondent!) and the whole profession is terribly incestuous. They all intermarry etc. And they are, for the most part, phenomenally dumb.

Is that why jschool is so crowded? Or is it a function of all the liberal arts majors defecting from the TTT path?

rose711
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby rose711 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:28 am

Did you notice in that article how much debt the Columbia student got just from undergrad? Don't you think that might have kept him from going to another really expensive school?

If you are going to take on loans for law school, do it with your eyes open. Don't make assumptions about yourself or your class. I mentioned in another thread - it is foolish to assume that you will be the smartest or hardest working or some combination of those two things- in your class. Most people at the top of the class in a good law school are smart and hard working, you will have tough competition. Also, sad to say, the people who go into the most elite schools are generally considered the best and brightest and, if you aren't one of them, you will have a lot to overcome to prove yourself. Just don't assume that you can overcome not being from the top schools, and if you can't, don't think of it as a personal failing.

Good luck.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:18 am

Nightrunner wrote:
rose711 wrote:Did you notice in that article how much debt the Columbia student got just from undergrad? Don't you think that might have kept him from going to another really expensive school?

If you are going to take on loans for law school, do it with your eyes open. Don't make assumptions about yourself or your class.

Also, don't make assumptions about anything in the legal profession making any damn sense at all.

This is unbelievable.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:08 am

romothesavior wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
rose711 wrote:Did you notice in that article how much debt the Columbia student got just from undergrad? Don't you think that might have kept him from going to another really expensive school?

If you are going to take on loans for law school, do it with your eyes open. Don't make assumptions about yourself or your class.

Also, don't make assumptions about anything in the legal profession making any damn sense at all.

This is unbelievable.


Lawyers trying to limit competition from recent grads.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby UnTouChablE » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:48 am

WOW!!!! there goes all the useful deterrence that article had on TLS. Its not a Columbia Law grad, its a UF law grad, ooo Okay. (not sarcastic in anyway, am serious, the story makes a lot more sense now)

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MTal
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MTal » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 am

Admit it, I was right.

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Patriot1208
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:57 am

MTal wrote:Admit it, I was right.


I haven't read the thread, but this can't be right.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:27 pm

Sinra wrote:I have some friends who are journalists and let's just say most of them are much more interested in elbow-rubbing with the important people and celebs. Most of them jump from specialty to specialty (food critic becomes city council correspondent!) and the whole profession is terribly incestuous. They all intermarry etc. And they are, for the most part, phenomenally dumb.

Sounds like attorneys :mrgreen:

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JazzOne
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby JazzOne » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:15 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
MTal wrote:Admit it, I was right.


I haven't read the thread, but this can't be right.

lol

rose711
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:38 am

emhellmer wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
rose711 wrote:Did you notice in that article how much debt the Columbia student got just from undergrad? Don't you think that might have kept him from going to another really expensive school?

If you are going to take on loans for law school, do it with your eyes open. Don't make assumptions about yourself or your class.

Also, don't make assumptions about anything in the legal profession making any damn sense at all.

This is unbelievable.


Lawyers trying to limit competition from recent grads.


I'm sorry - are you saying that you aren't going to listen to reasonable comments because you think actual practicing attorneys are afraid of competition from kids who aren't even in school yet? People they will have at least 3 more years experience on by the time those people graduate? My comments were directed at people who are considering law school. I don't fear you, I'm trying to help you.

I'm just asking people to be realistic, if you don't want to, you won't. But don't put me down personally for no reason.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:59 pm

emhellmer wrote:Lawyers trying to limit competition from recent grads.

I seriously doubt that members of the Ohio Bar Association feel threatened by a recent OSU grad seeking employment with the Franklin County PD.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:34 pm

rose711 wrote: But don't put me down personally for no reason.
TLS only lobs ad hominems, red herrings, and all other logical fallacies.

rose711
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:36 pm

Sorry if I take a comment on a post that I made, which assumes that I only posted because I was a recent law grad trying to discourage new students, as a personal insult. I do take it that way - I particularly object to that comment because it completely disregards my point while accusing me of trying to bring down other people.

Taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a huge decision. I am just asking people to think carefully before they do so. Loans are easy to get and can be tough to pay back.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:41 pm

rose711 wrote:Sorry if I take a comment on a post that I made, which assumes that I only posted because I was a recent law grad trying to discourage new students, as a personal insult. I do take it that way - I particularly object to that comment because it completely disregards my point while accusing me of trying to bring down other people.

Taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a huge decision. I am just asking people to think carefully before they do so. Loans are easy to get and can be tough to pay back.

He wasn't insulting you. Not even remotely, not even kinda, not even a little. I don't even think he was disagreeing with you. You read that completely wrong.

You need to learn your interwebz.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:43 pm

rose711 wrote:Sorry if I take a comment on a post that I made, which assumes that I only posted because I was a recent law grad trying to discourage new students, as a personal insult. I do take it that way - I particularly object to that comment because it completely disregards my point while accusing me of trying to bring down other people.

Taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a huge decision. I am just asking people to think carefully before they do so. Loans are easy to get and can be tough to pay back.

"Even If You Told Prospective Law Students the Truth, Would They Care?"
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/11/even-if- ... they-care/

also, chances are they would not be on TLS or ATL

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:17 pm

rose711 wrote:Sorry if I take a comment on a post that I made, which assumes that I only posted because I was a recent law grad trying to discourage new students, as a personal insult. I do take it that way - I particularly object to that comment because it completely disregards my point while accusing me of trying to bring down other people.

Taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a huge decision. I am just asking people to think carefully before they do so. Loans are easy to get and can be tough to pay back.


Easy there. Take a deep breath; calm down. You're fine.

My comment about limiting competition referred to members of the bar refusing bar membership to someone because they had too many student loans. Not to you rose. And yes, older professionals with more experience are often threatened by recent grads. If the older professionals are looking for work, they often have to compete with recent grads who are eager to work twice as hard for half the pay. This happens in every profession.

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General Tso
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby General Tso » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:20 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
rose711 wrote:Sorry if I take a comment on a post that I made, which assumes that I only posted because I was a recent law grad trying to discourage new students, as a personal insult. I do take it that way - I particularly object to that comment because it completely disregards my point while accusing me of trying to bring down other people.

Taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a huge decision. I am just asking people to think carefully before they do so. Loans are easy to get and can be tough to pay back.

"Even If You Told Prospective Law Students the Truth, Would They Care?"
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/11/even-if- ... they-care/

also, chances are they would not be on TLS or ATL


That study is kinda poorly done. First, school rank is considered to be a proxy for career prospects. Second, the misleading statistics put out by schools makes a job seem like a certainty regardless. Pretty much every school reports 90%+ employed within 9 months.

It's highly unlikely that 90% of people that take the LSAT don't care about getting a job. Maybe 50% are really that dumb.

Phatslice
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Phatslice » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:Make 60k per year if you didn't go to law school? Haha, you are lucky to get a 30k job with a B.A. and no experience. And 30k tuition? It better be an elite for that kind of cash.


Yea but three years of working instead of jerking off in the TTT library gets you that experience.

Funny, my 6 years of experience working entry-level service sector jobs never seemed to get me anywhere.


You have to be smart about it. You don't get any valuable experience being a barista, working at Borders or working in the warehouse.

Work in businesses that have room for internal growth, or advancement.

I think getting a TTT degree for someone with no experience or expertise isn't a terrible idea. But they shouldn't pay a lot for it, and they should graduate with as little debt as possible. But at most TTT's you are talking about graduating with 150K+ debt.



Desert Fox is right. I will probably end up going to a TTT because those are the only places that have offered me full scholarships. I have several friends who have graduated in the T14. Some have 100K plus jobs, some don't. Even the ones with jobs have told me to seriously consider if I really want to be an attorney (they hate the hours). They told me the market is terrible even for them, and the way I see it if my friends from T14 are having trouble finding big firm jobs, then I will probably have ZERO chance of getting a big firm job. With that being said, TTT isn't so bad if you owe very little coming out. Of course be sure that the scholarship stipulations are reasonable. I have gotten some reasonable stipulations, and some RIDICULOUSLY unreasonable stipulations.

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fragged
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby fragged » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:00 pm

Obviously it is wise to consider the ROI of law school, but for those starting out this fall, we will finish in 2014. Aside from Baba Vanga, no one knows what the legal market will be like in 3 1/2 years. You can claim that you know, but you don't.

That being said, I consider law school an investment. Investments always come with risks. I also invest in the stock market and in real estate. No one ever guaranteed me any specific return on those investments, so why would I give up on law school because there was no guarantee of a good job upon graduation?

Suck it up, take the risk, and in the end you will be better educated and more qualified than the other person who doesn't have a law degree.

Or you could just do something else and wonder for the rest of your life how things would have been if you had some balls.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby joemoviebuff » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:12 pm

fragged wrote:Obviously it is wise to consider the ROI of law school, but for those starting out this fall, we will finish in 2014. Aside from Baba Vanga, no one knows what the legal market will be like in 3 1/2 years. You can claim that you know, but you don't.

That being said, I consider law school an investment. Investments always come with risks. I also invest in the stock market and in real estate. No one ever guaranteed me any specific return on those investments, so why would I give up on law school because there was no guarantee of a good job upon graduation?

Suck it up, take the risk, and in the end you will be better educated and more qualified than the other person who doesn't have a law degree.

Or you could just do something else and wonder for the rest of your life how things would have been if you had some balls.


In before this gets ripped apart.

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fragged
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby fragged » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:36 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
fragged wrote:Obviously it is wise to consider the ROI of law school, but for those starting out this fall, we will finish in 2014. Aside from Baba Vanga, no one knows what the legal market will be like in 3 1/2 years. You can claim that you know, but you don't.

That being said, I consider law school an investment. Investments always come with risks. I also invest in the stock market and in real estate. No one ever guaranteed me any specific return on those investments, so why would I give up on law school because there was no guarantee of a good job upon graduation?

Suck it up, take the risk, and in the end you will be better educated and more qualified than the other person who doesn't have a law degree.

Or you could just do something else and wonder for the rest of your life how things would have been if you had some balls.


In before this gets ripped apart.


Versuch's doch mal!

09042014
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:58 pm

fragged wrote:Obviously it is wise to consider the ROI of law school, but for those starting out this fall, we will finish in 2014. Aside from Baba Vanga, no one knows what the legal market will be like in 3 1/2 years. You can claim that you know, but you don't.

That being said, I consider law school an investment. Investments always come with risks. I also invest in the stock market and in real estate. No one ever guaranteed me any specific return on those investments, so why would I give up on law school because there was no guarantee of a good job upon graduation?

Suck it up, take the risk, and in the end you will be better educated and more qualified than the other person who doesn't have a law degree.

Or you could just do something else and wonder for the rest of your life how things would have been if you had some balls.


If you are paying sticker, and don't go to a school that gives you a good chance to get big law, then it is a terrible investment. You'd be better off bringing 200K and putting it on red.




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