ABA actually warns against law school

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r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:22 pm

emhellmer wrote:
r6_philly wrote:BTW if you guys can manage to discourage most law applicants from attending I would really appreciate it :wink:


No no no. What I want is to discourage very smart students from attending. Then we can pack the schools with idiots and graduate top of our class no problem :-)


But if there are 50% less students in total, then even the bottom of the class can get jobs. This will make a lot of those smart students ease up and relax, allowing us old timers with ruthless work ethics to get the best jobs.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:49 pm

johnnyutah wrote:The New York Times weighs in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/busin ... ral&src=me

They talk to a Columbia grad doing contract doc review work for 30 an hour, no benefits, in New York City.

Cognitive dissonance displayed by law students and graduates
http://subprimejd.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... y-law.html

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:52 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:The New York Times weighs in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/busin ... ral&src=me

They talk to a Columbia grad doing contract doc review work for 30 an hour, no benefits, in New York City.

Cognitive dissonance displayed by law students and graduates
http://subprimejd.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... y-law.html

Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance. Maybe he's just accepted that this debt will prevent him from ever acquiring assets or making enough money that his wages can be garnished, and he's just moved on from there.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:55 pm

JazzOne wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:My uncle's firm just hired a guy who was median at Hastings. After graduation he did work per diem for about 6 months before being made an offer.

Your uncle's firm still hiring? :mrgreen:

lol


Here is hoping, right? I don't quite understand what he does, but something about the recession has caused their firm to actually grow. It isn't bankruptcy or foreclosure work, but I guess it must be related in some way. either way, they've actually had pretty significant uptick during the down time.

MrAnon
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:58 pm

way too much time spent in this thread trying to tear down the examples and the new york times.

If you want confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going neck deep in debt to support the lifestyles of law school administrators then go talk to mommy and daddy. Don't pick up the newspaper if it sends an uncomfortable message I suppose.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:58 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:My uncle's firm just hired a guy who was median at Hastings. After graduation he did work per diem for about 6 months before being made an offer.

Your uncle's firm still hiring? :mrgreen:

lol


Here is hoping, right? I don't quite understand what he does, but something about the recession has caused their firm to actually grow. It isn't bankruptcy or foreclosure work, but I guess it must be related in some way. either way, they've actually had pretty significant uptick during the down time.

If he wants a somewhat above median t-14 grad with 2 summers of substantive litigation and appellate experience at nonprofit orgs, PM me :mrgreen:

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JazzOne
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:01 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:My uncle's firm just hired a guy who was median at Hastings. After graduation he did work per diem for about 6 months before being made an offer.

Your uncle's firm still hiring? :mrgreen:

lol


Here is hoping, right? I don't quite understand what he does, but something about the recession has caused their firm to actually grow. It isn't bankruptcy or foreclosure work, but I guess it must be related in some way. either way, they've actually had pretty significant uptick during the down time.

A lot of litigators here in Texas told me that business has been solid. I didn't know how much of that was puffery since I was interviewing with the firms, but it became a recurring theme among hiring partners. They all contended that litigation was up but transactional work was way down.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:03 pm

MrAnon wrote:way too much time spent in this thread trying to tear down the examples and the new york times.

If you want confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going neck deep in debt to support the lifestyles of law school administrators then go talk to mommy and daddy. Don't pick up the newspaper if it sends an uncomfortable message I suppose.


IF you want confirmation that what you are doing is not the right thing, then call daddy and mommy and ask them to write a giant check. If you need a newspaper to tell you what you are doing is right or wrong, you are doing it wrong.
Last edited by r6_philly on Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:04 pm

r6_philly wrote:
MrAnon wrote:way too much time spent in this thread trying to tear down the examples and the new york times.

If you want confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going neck deep in debt to support the lifestyles of law school administrators then go talk to mommy and daddy. Don't pick up the newspaper if it sends an uncomfortable message I suppose.


IF you want confirmation that what you are doing is not the right thing, then call daddy and mommy and ask them to write a giant check. If you need a newspaper to tell you what you are doing is right or wrong, you are doing it wrong.

+1

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Sinra
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Sinra » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:32 pm

MrAnon wrote:way too much time spent in this thread trying to tear down the examples and the new york times.

If you want confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going neck deep in debt to support the lifestyles of law school administrators then go talk to mommy and daddy. Don't pick up the newspaper if it sends an uncomfortable message I suppose.


LOL. I find it funny that that's your takeway. I found it more interesting that the "paper of record" doesn't even bother to do as much research as a couple of law students and 0Ls on TLS. I'm more fascinated by the state of journalistic standards but that's a conversation for another day. My beef is that they claim this guy went to CLS and can't find a job, where in fact it seems like he went to Columbia undergrad, not CLS...which totally skews the whole "even CLS grads can't get hired!" meme the article is advancing.

Mommy and daddy. :D Hee hee.

Note that the article also states that biglaw jobs still exist--but only for those at top schools with top grades. Which, um, is basically what most on TLS "T14 or bust" attitude is all about.*

*not that I necessarily even agree with it.

MrAnon
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:01 pm

its the newspapers fault. right.

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Patriot1208
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:20 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Sinra wrote:LOL. I find it funny that that's your takeway. I found it more interesting that the "paper of record" doesn't even bother to do as much research as a couple of law students and 0Ls on TLS. I'm more fascinated by the state of journalistic standards but that's a conversation for another day. My beef is that they claim this guy went to CLS and can't find a job, where in fact it seems like he went to Columbia undergrad, not CLS...which totally skews the whole "even CLS grads can't get hired!" meme the article is advancing.

--LinkRemoved--

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you don't know what you're talking about.


Dude, that guy is ugly, no wonder he is unemployed.

Aqualibrium
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:33 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Dude, that guy is ugly, no wonder he is unemployed.



You're a douche.

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Patriot1208
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:35 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:Dude, that guy is ugly, no wonder he is unemployed.



You're a douche.


WOOOSH

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D. H2Oman
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:38 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:Dude, that guy is ugly, no wonder he is unemployed.



You're a douche.


WOOOSH



So you're saying you think he's hot?

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:47 pm

MrAnon wrote:its the newspapers fault. right.


Selective, anecdotal reporting, might as well be faulty.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:52 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
MrAnon wrote:its the newspapers fault. right.


Selective, anecdotal reporting, might as well be faulty.

I'm usually a fan of yours, but in this case you are overstating your point, bordering on absurdity.


They are doing what they say law schools are doing. I work for a newspaper, I am not a fan of such articles. Show me stats and figures and the methodology behind the stats and figures if you want to make a solid point. Reporting on individual cases and expecting the casual reader to infer the real, complete picture is the absurdity.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:14 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
r6_philly wrote:They are doing what they say law schools are doing. I work for a newspaper, I am not a fan of such articles. Show me stats and figures and the methodology behind the stats and figures if you want to make a solid point. Reporting on individual cases and expecting the casual reader to infer the real, complete picture is the absurdity.

OK, let's say (hypothetically, of course) that the law schools steadfastly refuse to give you any stats and figures beyond the BS numbers they report on their web sites. So, in that case, your options are:

1. do nothing, and let those numbers stand, or
2. do a fluff profile piece, to at least present some alternate view on the issue.

Are you so opposed to 2 that you would prefer 1?


I prefer they stick to reporting news instead of trying to dispel some B.S. reporting by the law schools using the same B.S. reporting used by the law schools. I realize newspapers are hurting and that sensationalism sells but maybe we should read it with a grain of salt like we read law school reports.

Look I don't disagree with the premise of the story, I just find it ironic at the fluff profile piece - if you substitute the people profiled with successes you can publish it in viewbooks.

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Sinra
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Sinra » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:20 pm

[redacted]

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:23 pm

It's also entirely possible that the CLS/Florida (? sorry, I didn't care enough to research if it was really a T5 or a TTT) graduate got a 178 on his LSATs, but picks his nose during job interviews. It happens. Some people are so beyond social redemption that not even a Columbia Law Degree can get them a job. Like philly said, this is anecdotal reporting and about as useful as "this guy who once dated my sophmore year roomate knew this guy who had a cousin who..." Either way, I really don't think it's worth getting your knickers twisted over. The facts and figures are enough.

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Patriot1208
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:05 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:Dude, that guy is ugly, no wonder he is unemployed.



You're a douche.


WOOOSH



So you're saying you think he's hot?


I was, rather poorly, making reference to the common debate in the employment forums about how the reason people who do well in school but don't get jobs is always because of how they look/their personality.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:I was, rather poorly, making reference to the common debate in the employment forums about how the reason people who do well in school but don't get jobs is always because of how they look/their personality.


Unfortunately I think if you are lacking in looks or personality you may have to overcome higher hurdles in getting hired. Looks and personality are not protected classes.

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Patriot1208
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:26 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:I was, rather poorly, making reference to the common debate in the employment forums about how the reason people who do well in school but don't get jobs is always because of how they look/their personality.


Unfortunately I think if you are lacking in looks or personality you may have to overcome higher hurdles in getting hired. Looks and personality are not protected classes.

Sure, but everytime someone doesn't get hired when people think you should, they automatically jump to the conclusion that you are an ugly fuckwad.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:28 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:I was, rather poorly, making reference to the common debate in the employment forums about how the reason people who do well in school but don't get jobs is always because of how they look/their personality.


Unfortunately I think if you are lacking in looks or personality you may have to overcome higher hurdles in getting hired. Looks and personality are not protected classes.

Sure, but everytime someone doesn't get hired when people think you should, they automatically jump to the conclusion that you are an ugly fuckwad.


Because they think "well I am not ugly so I would have been hired".

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Sinra
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Sinra » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:30 pm

Today, correction from the Times:

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: January 11, 2011

An earlier version of this article misstated the educational history of Jason Bohn, a recent law school graduate. While Mr. Bohn took classes at Columbia Law School, his law degree is from the University of Florida. And while nearly all of his student loan debt was accumulated at Columbia University, it was incurred while he was an undergraduate and while working on a master’s degree, and not at Columbia Law.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

Mr. Bohn responded on First Tier Toilet. Posted same on the thread in the admissions forum since there was so much back and forth about this and I was curious myself for the factual accuracy of Mr. Bohn's story.




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