ABA actually warns against law school

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
paratactical
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:06 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby paratactical » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:29 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)

Because it was a very different field back in the day. Every TTT partner I've ever come across is ancient.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:31 pm

paratactical wrote:Are you guys about to try to sell us copies of The Secret?



lol I will soon write a book along those lines. I have crafted a lifetime of achievements based on me being positive while there is no reason to. I am just too hardheaded and too self-confident to admit that I will fail. "There is always another door that I didn't seen" I always say. Sounds like The secret huh.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:31 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)


I assume they resume mail and get interviews. Every year there are TTT hires by V10 firms. Just not a lot.

Or they started at a small firm that got absorbed, or they made partner at a different firm and lateraled.

You can make a decent living as a lawyer but if you miss big law, it's nearly impossible to get back in.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:34 pm

paratactical wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)

Because it was a very different field back in the day. Every TTT partner I've ever come across is ancient.


Makes sense.

User avatar
98234872348
Posts: 1547
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)


I assume they resume mail and get interviews. Every year there are TTT hires by V10 firms. Just not a lot.

Or they started at a small firm that got absorbed, or they made partner at a different firm and lateraled.

You can make a decent living as a lawyer but if you miss big law, it's nearly impossible to get back in.

Why the hell would you want to go into biglaw if you make a decent living? For instance: most members of municipal general counsel offices in Florida make upwards of 150k a year. Granted, that's not biglaw partner money, but you're working 9-5 Monday-Friday and making enough money that with a solid investment portfolio you could probably walk home with 200k a year in income.

User avatar
allah6969
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby allah6969 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:58 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
allah6969 wrote:Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.

This is an incredibly inaccurate perception of the bimodal hiring market.


Says the legal market expert...

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MrAnon » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:02 pm

mistergoft wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)


I assume they resume mail and get interviews. Every year there are TTT hires by V10 firms. Just not a lot.

Or they started at a small firm that got absorbed, or they made partner at a different firm and lateraled.

You can make a decent living as a lawyer but if you miss big law, it's nearly impossible to get back in.

Why the hell would you want to go into biglaw if you make a decent living? For instance: most members of municipal general counsel offices in Florida make upwards of 150k a year. Granted, that's not biglaw partner money, but you're working 9-5 Monday-Friday and making enough money that with a solid investment portfolio you could probably walk home with 200k a year in income.


No. You walk home with about 120k after taxes. And where are you getting these investment returns?

User avatar
98234872348
Posts: 1547
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:No. You walk home with about 120k after taxes. And where are you getting these investment returns?

If you make money, you can invest that money...

I'll take 120k after taxes working 40 hours a week over 320k after taxes working 70. Just saying.

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:17 pm

paratactical wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:You are spectacularly wrong about this. I have a shit degree from an elite liberal arts college. Trust me, there are no "business" jobs out there for people like me. I've been trying for 2 years.

< Art school. Gainfully employed in a large office. HTH


but not all of us have bouncing Elmo titties. this thread is so full of fail I don't even know where to begin. TLS is beyond boring these days.

User avatar
emhellmer
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:53 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:11 pm

General Tso wrote:
paratactical wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:You are spectacularly wrong about this. I have a shit degree from an elite liberal arts college. Trust me, there are no "business" jobs out there for people like me. I've been trying for 2 years.

< Art school. Gainfully employed in a large office. HTH


but not all of us have bouncing Elmo titties. this thread is so full of fail I don't even know where to begin. TLS is beyond boring these days.


I have a shit degree from a shit liberal arts college. I got good jobs right out of college (starting at the bottom rung at $10/hr, of course). An old classmate with an English BA is in charge of media relations for a huge non-profit in a big city, and he got his start writing employment clasifieds for $6/hr. Another old classmate who double majored in History and French got her start selling ad space for a local magazine on almost straight commission and worked her way into a nice career in advertising. A lot of times the work sucks at first and the pay is low, but if you prove yourself you have a chance to learn your industry and move up.

User avatar
emhellmer
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:53 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:52 pm

General Tso wrote:
paratactical wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:You are spectacularly wrong about this. I have a shit degree from an elite liberal arts college. Trust me, there are no "business" jobs out there for people like me. I've been trying for 2 years.

< Art school. Gainfully employed in a large office. HTH


but not all of us have bouncing Elmo titties. this thread is so full of fail I don't even know where to begin. TLS is beyond boring these days.


Now that I think about it, sales is a great entry-level job for people with a liberal arts degree who would like to get into something more business oriented. The downside is that the pay is unpredictable, and it is sink or swim, but many sales reps can eventually move up into management, etc. That is where your degree--any degree--will come in handy. There usually aren't education requirements for most sales jobs (other than knowing about the product you are selling), but a lot of management jobs in bigger corporations require a BA. The ads usually say something like "A degree in business is required, although experience may be a substitue..." I have a friend who is 33 and getting her BA from an on-line diploma mill. She's been very successful in her industry, but in order to move up she needs a degree--any degree--so that the HR recs. are satisfied.

User avatar
johnnyutah
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:00 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:58 pm

emhellmer wrote:Now that I think about it, sales is a great entry-level job for people with a liberal arts degree who would like to get into something more business oriented. The downside is that the pay is unpredictable, and it is sink or swim, but many sales reps can eventually move up into management, etc. That is where your degree--any degree--will come in handy. There usually aren't education requirements for most sales jobs (other than knowing about the product you are selling), but a lot of management jobs in bigger corporations require a BA. The ads usually say something like "A degree in business is required, although experience may be a substitue..." I have a friend who is 33 and getting her BA from an on-line diploma mill. She's been very successful in her industry, but in order to move up she needs a degree--any degree--so that the HR recs. are satisfied.

The only rule I've ever had as far as jobs are concerned is no sales.

User avatar
glitter178
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby glitter178 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:59 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
emhellmer wrote:Now that I think about it, sales is a great entry-level job for people with a liberal arts degree who would like to get into something more business oriented. The downside is that the pay is unpredictable, and it is sink or swim, but many sales reps can eventually move up into management, etc. That is where your degree--any degree--will come in handy. There usually aren't education requirements for most sales jobs (other than knowing about the product you are selling), but a lot of management jobs in bigger corporations require a BA. The ads usually say something like "A degree in business is required, although experience may be a substitue..." I have a friend who is 33 and getting her BA from an on-line diploma mill. She's been very successful in her industry, but in order to move up she needs a degree--any degree--so that the HR recs. are satisfied.

The only rule I've ever had as far as jobs are concerned is no sales.


amen

User avatar
emhellmer
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:53 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:09 pm

glitter178 wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
emhellmer wrote:Now that I think about it, sales is a great entry-level job for people with a liberal arts degree who would like to get into something more business oriented. The downside is that the pay is unpredictable, and it is sink or swim, but many sales reps can eventually move up into management, etc. That is where your degree--any degree--will come in handy. There usually aren't education requirements for most sales jobs (other than knowing about the product you are selling), but a lot of management jobs in bigger corporations require a BA. The ads usually say something like "A degree in business is required, although experience may be a substitue..." I have a friend who is 33 and getting her BA from an on-line diploma mill. She's been very successful in her industry, but in order to move up she needs a degree--any degree--so that the HR recs. are satisfied.

The only rule I've ever had as far as jobs are concerned is no sales.


amen


I did it once. Hated it. Some people don't mind; good for them. They almost certainly make more money than I do :?

User avatar
johnnyutah
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:00 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:16 pm

emhellmer wrote:I did it once. Hated it. Some people don't mind; good for them. They almost certainly make more money than I do :?

Hahah, I feel the same way. I'd rather go back to 3rd shift stocking at the supermarket.

User avatar
EbonyEsq
Posts: 264
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:06 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby EbonyEsq » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:35 pm

mpasi wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
mpasi wrote:Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.


An MBA is only a good idea if you have business experience (not just work experience, real experience) and are willing to accept the uncertainty of the market. IMHO, people who don't want to study the law because they can't be 100% positive that they will be earning $160K RIGHT AFTER graduation will not fare any better with an MBA, and should spend a few more years working so that they can get a better idea about what they really want to do with their careers.

In fact, I would bet that new MBAs are doing even worse than new JDs in this economy. No degree is a surefire ticket to wealth, period. Graduate school is always a bad idea if you aren't sure about what you want from your education.

Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.



I know you think you're helping, but you just come off as rude and bitter. I'm talking about the kind of law schools I could get into and whether there would be any legal job, six-figure or otherwise, waiting for me. I don't have to be rich, I just want to like my education and like the career I get into. An MBA, if I choose to pursue one, is years from now. I don't have the experience required just yet.


I think its worth mentioning being a URM with an Ivy law degree will still open doors. Many of them. Especially if black.

User avatar
niederbomb
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby niederbomb » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:04 pm

So, honestly, would I be better of at a Canadian school like UofT rather than the MVP to which I'm likely to gain admission? I like the cold and hate debt as well as conservative politics. I could pull off a country relocation, I think (technically, I already have).

Honestly, what are my chances of getting a decent job at MVP entering next fall or the year after?

User avatar
niederbomb
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby niederbomb » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:09 pm

emhellmer wrote:
General Tso wrote:
paratactical wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:You are spectacularly wrong about this. I have a shit degree from an elite liberal arts college. Trust me, there are no "business" jobs out there for people like me. I've been trying for 2 years.

< Art school. Gainfully employed in a large office. HTH


but not all of us have bouncing Elmo titties. this thread is so full of fail I don't even know where to begin. TLS is beyond boring these days.


I have a shit degree from a shit liberal arts college. I got good jobs right out of college (starting at the bottom rung at $10/hr, of course). An old classmate with an English BA is in charge of media relations for a huge non-profit in a big city, and he got his start writing employment clasifieds for $6/hr. Another old classmate who double majored in History and French got her start selling ad space for a local magazine on almost straight commission and worked her way into a nice career in advertising. A lot of times the work sucks at first and the pay is low, but if you prove yourself you have a chance to learn your industry and move up.


Where do you live?

I thought I'd be safe at MVPB, NU with a modest scholly or Chicago sticker, but this thread has me sooo scared.
Last edited by niederbomb on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
saito816
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby saito816 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:21 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:
mpasi wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
mpasi wrote:Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.


An MBA is only a good idea if you have business experience (not just work experience, real experience) and are willing to accept the uncertainty of the market. IMHO, people who don't want to study the law because they can't be 100% positive that they will be earning $160K RIGHT AFTER graduation will not fare any better with an MBA, and should spend a few more years working so that they can get a better idea about what they really want to do with their careers.

In fact, I would bet that new MBAs are doing even worse than new JDs in this economy. No degree is a surefire ticket to wealth, period. Graduate school is always a bad idea if you aren't sure about what you want from your education.

Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.



I know you think you're helping, but you just come off as rude and bitter. I'm talking about the kind of law schools I could get into and whether there would be any legal job, six-figure or otherwise, waiting for me. I don't have to be rich, I just want to like my education and like the career I get into. An MBA, if I choose to pursue one, is years from now. I don't have the experience required just yet.


I think its worth mentioning being a URM with an Ivy law degree will still open doors. Many of them. Especially if black.


Really, could you expand on this? I was never sure just how much being a URM would help outside of admissions, is it also a strong positive at OCI?

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:31 pm

I think its worth mentioning being a URM with an Ivy law degree will still open doors. Many of them. Especially if black.


To a limited extent, but URMs outside of the T3 have difficulty finding jobs. URMs at the bottom of the T14 might talk to your average grad of a T50 to understand what the job search will be like.

User avatar
niederbomb
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby niederbomb » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:56 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:Maybe I was just dumb about it, but I utterly failed to get any job working in or for business after UG even though I submitted 100s of resumes. It might just be because my hometown is a serious good old boy's network, but it seemed like those kinds of jobs were just closed to most people even at the entry level.

edit: Even after I lowered my expectations and started applying to minimum wage stuff again after graduation, it took me like a month and a half to finally get hired at a gas station. It's just hard to find jobs, dude.


If you paid me money to edit your resume, write your cover letters, train you how to interview, and prep you before you interviews, I guarantee you would have gotten at least 1 offer. It's about the packaging and how you sell it. This is a country where you can put rocks in a package and sell it as a pet. Come on.

That doesn't mean employers are hiring, dude. I sincerely doubt that the 15+ million unemployed people in this country just needed resume and interview coaching.


This.
Last edited by niederbomb on Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
niederbomb
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby niederbomb » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:13 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.


That accounts for what 1% of TTT students?

A lot more than that, I bet. Obviously this is a speculative estimate at best on my part, but I'd venture that at least 50% of the folks at my hometown law school have attorneys in the family somewhere.


It seems messed up that family status can guarantee what others have to work for. But it's stupid to argue that point, even if I feel it.

Seriously, some people have shit families, dads in prison, etc. You can't make a generalization like that in a country as stratified and diverse as America that presupposes a white middle class upbringing. For anyone who doesn't fit this profile, T14 is necessary to make stuff happen and may indeed be the only source of the "who you know" that gets people jobs.

User avatar
johnnyutah
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:00 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:23 pm

niederbomb wrote:It seems messed up that family status can guarantee what others have to work for. But it's stupid to argue that point, even if I feel it.

Seriously, some people have shit families, dads in prison, etc. You can't make a generalization like that in a country as stratified and diverse as America that presupposes a white middle class upbringing. For anyone who doesn't fit this profile, T14 is necessary to make stuff happen and may indeed be the only source of the "who you know" that gets people jobs.

I know a girl from my hometown who is in the bottom 10% of her class at a regional T1 school in the area, and who consistently gets job interviews and offers from firms in my town that I can't even get an interview with (above median at t-14) because her father is a partner at a law firm and is very well connected in the legal community.

I also know a girl I go to school with who has no family connections at all, but worked her ass to to be at the top of my class and, as a result, has crazy job offers from big firms, the DOJ, and Circuit Court judges.

Without getting in to numbers or probability, the moral is this: yes, family connections can get you that first job, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you're not out of luck just because you don't have them. It's possible (although admittedly harder) to get things without connections, too.

User avatar
saito816
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby saito816 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:38 pm

MrAnon wrote:
I think its worth mentioning being a URM with an Ivy law degree will still open doors. Many of them. Especially if black.


To a limited extent, but URMs outside of the T3 have difficulty finding jobs. URMs at the bottom of the T14 might talk to your average grad of a T50 to understand what the job search will be like.


I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, are you trying to say that unless you are in the T3, being a URM is such a negative soft that attending a t14 school is the equivalent of being white and attending a T50 :roll: , or are you saying that being at the bottom third at a T14 as a URM is the equivalent of an average person attending a T50

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:51 pm

I am saying that being a URM who got into Georgetown with the lowest LSAT/GPA combo around isn't going to impress employers. Ditto for being a URM who got the bump into Michigan for the same stats. Harvard? Well firms will take anyone from Harvard so you are sitting pretty if a URM boost got you in there.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests