ABA actually warns against law school

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mrmangs
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby mrmangs » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:17 pm

I don't think you want to be a real estate agent right now.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:18 pm

mrmangs wrote:I don't think you want to be a real estate agent right now.



Whaaaaa? There are plenty of clients to pick through for the next 5 years!!!

Kidding, kidding.

09042014
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:57 pm

mistergoft wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Midlaw is mostly myth.

Even the economy recovers if you aren't going to a T18 school you probably won't make enough money to pay your loans back.

While the "midlaw is a myth" mantra is mostly true in primary markets, in secondary markets this simply is not true. The majority of firms that interview at UF can be classified as "midlaw" (i.e. Carlton Fields, Bilzin Sumburg, Gray Robinson, Rogers Towers [although they did not interview this year, but normally do], Gunster, Smith Hulsey Busey, and Phelps Dunbar to name a few). I am sure this is true of many other secondary markets as well. While I am not saying this guarantees anything (said firms probably accounted for about 7-8 people being employed at my school), they do exist.


Those firms are just the small end of big law.

09042014
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:06 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
observationalist wrote:As someone who is currently enrolled in IBR, I really hope you're wrong... my monthly payments will start out at $0 because my debt/income ratio is so high, and adjusting for slight salary increases means I will likely only have to pay back a fraction of my LS debt over the next 10 years. After that the outstanding balance on my federal direct loan should be forgiven through the public interest program of IBR, at which point I will have 10 years of hopefully rewarding work experience to take with me into the next 30-40 years of debt-free, hopefully rewarding work. Or so one hopes.

Honestly, I also hope I'm wrong. That's another risk factor (one most people don't bother to calculate): how long do you believe the federal government will be willing and able to commit to a large-scale IBR program? I hope it will be for a long time. It very well could be a long time. But I'm not so sold on the idea that I'm going to bank six digits on it, personally.

If you get into a position that is eligible for the ten-year forgiveness plan, that's probably a safer bet...but I'm just conjecturing.


There aren't that many people who have huge federal loans. We are mostly talking about Med Students and related health specialists, lawyers, MBA, and some things like that.

Undergrads limit out at like 30K.

The ten year IBR is a lot more safe. That limits it even further and it's hard to argue against.

The 25 year IBR is a lot more risky. First off their is a tax bomb. You'll have to pay income tax on everything they write off. You'll be paying 15% of your discretionary income for 25 years then you get a 90K tax bill at age 50. It's a little bullshit.

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allah6969
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby allah6969 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:33 pm

Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?

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vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:57 pm

allah6969 wrote:Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?

Will many legal jobs in the near future be grabbed up by tier-1 students? You bet.

Does this mean tier-1 students are going to be safe? Hell no. There's not enough jobs for all of them, and those who are lacking in {good grades/interview skills/work experience/whatever else} still run the risk of getting left out in the cold. There are folks now who've even done well at T14 and can't find work.

Yes, it'll more likely be students from better schools that get the jobs, but that does not mean that going to a better school means you'll necessarily get one.

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allah6969
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby allah6969 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:36 am

vanwinkle wrote:
allah6969 wrote:Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?

Will many legal jobs in the near future be grabbed up by tier-1 students? You bet.

Does this mean tier-1 students are going to be safe? Hell no. There's not enough jobs for all of them, and those who are lacking in {good grades/interview skills/work experience/whatever else} still run the risk of getting left out in the cold. There are folks now who've even done well at T14 and can't find work.

Yes, it'll more likely be students from better schools that get the jobs, but that does not mean that going to a better school means you'll necessarily get one.


Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:42 am

Nightrunner wrote:
allah6969 wrote:Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.

This is an incredibly inaccurate perception of the bimodal hiring market.

And yet it persists so much...

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paratactical
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby paratactical » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:59 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
allah6969 wrote:Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.

This is an incredibly inaccurate perception of the bimodal hiring market.

And yet it persists so much...

It's also terrible advice. "Don't worry, you'll probably get a job!" It's better to worry and work for it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:07 pm

paratactical wrote:It's also terrible advice. "Don't worry, you'll probably get a job!" It's better to worry and work for it.

Agreed, and my general perception is that the people who end up finding jobs are the people who worry and work for it. (Not all of them do, but most who don't, don't.) Telling people not to worry is just telling them to make themselves unemployable.

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pokerlaw
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby pokerlaw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:14 pm

Fear is a great motivator.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:33 pm

allah6969 wrote:Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.

QF is not a law student looking for a job.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:43 pm

Please, always worry about getting a job. I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market. IMO, an employer who would hire a T-14 grad with none of the above qualities over a TTT grad with superlative skills (who may be willing to word for a little less) is an idiot, but I guess the legal market operates in a manner that is very different from the market for most other types of jobs. Maybe a Harvard grad can get away with the lack of "soft skills," needed to find a job, who knows.

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bk1
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:49 pm

emhellmer wrote:Please, always worry about getting a job. I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market. IMO, an employer who would hire a T-14 grad with none of the above qualities over a TTT grad with superlative skills (who may be willing to word for a little less) is an idiot, but I guess the legal market operates in a manner that is very different from the market for most other types of jobs. Maybe a Harvard grad can get away with the lack of "soft skills," needed to find a job, who knows.


While speaking at American University about Supreme Court clerks, "By and large," Scalia said, "I'm going to be picking from the law schools that, basically, are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest, and they may not teach very well, but you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. If they come in the best and the brightest, they're probably going to leave the best and the brightest, OK?"

Jeff Sutton, Ohio's former state solicitor and now a judge with the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. "I wouldn't have hired Jeff Sutton," Justice Scalia said. "For God's sake, he went to Ohio State! And he's one of the very best law clerks I ever had."

This is the attitude of the legal community. Prestige, prestige, prestige.

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98234872348
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
observationalist wrote:As someone who is currently enrolled in IBR, I really hope you're wrong... my monthly payments will start out at $0 because my debt/income ratio is so high, and adjusting for slight salary increases means I will likely only have to pay back a fraction of my LS debt over the next 10 years. After that the outstanding balance on my federal direct loan should be forgiven through the public interest program of IBR, at which point I will have 10 years of hopefully rewarding work experience to take with me into the next 30-40 years of debt-free, hopefully rewarding work. Or so one hopes.

Honestly, I also hope I'm wrong. That's another risk factor (one most people don't bother to calculate): how long do you believe the federal government will be willing and able to commit to a large-scale IBR program? I hope it will be for a long time. It very well could be a long time. But I'm not so sold on the idea that I'm going to bank six digits on it, personally.

If you get into a position that is eligible for the ten-year forgiveness plan, that's probably a safer bet...but I'm just conjecturing.


There aren't that many people who have huge federal loans. We are mostly talking about Med Students and related health specialists, lawyers, MBA, and some things like that.

Undergrads limit out at like 30K.

The ten year IBR is a lot more safe. That limits it even further and it's hard to argue against.

The 25 year IBR is a lot more risky. First off their is a tax bomb. You'll have to pay income tax on everything they write off. You'll be paying 15% of your discretionary income for 25 years then you get a 90K tax bill at age 50. It's a little bullshit.

Discharge of indebtedness isn't income to the extent that someone is insolvent... Therefore:

1. Make baller money till age 50
2. Somehow become insolvent in the tax year in question
3. ??????
4. PROFIT

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:13 pm

emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.

Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:16 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.

Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.


Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." :-)

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:17 pm

emhellmer wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.

Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.


Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." :-)


You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.

Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.

Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." :-)

You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.

"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson

In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:22 pm

r6_philly wrote: You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.


+1

09042014
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:24 pm

You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:27 pm

vanwinkle wrote:"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson

In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.


When I was racing, I learned that what you believe in plays a bigger part in the dynamics of things than most people would admit. People showing up thinking they will lose always lose. If you believe you need both, then you will need both. It doesn't mean the opposite is always true, but if you set limitations for yourself, then those will become realities.

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emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:27 pm

[/quote]Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.[/quote]
Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." :-)[/quote]
You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.[/quote]
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson

In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.[/quote]

And let's not underestimate the importance of having a good attitude. A common phrase tossed around in management training is "you can train skills, but you can't train attitude." I find it VERY hard to believe that all legal employers are ignorant to the importance of these factors (outside of the most elite of all elite circles, like the supreme court, etc.). If they are, no wonder everyone hates lawyers!

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:28 pm

Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.


Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)
Last edited by r6_philly on Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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paratactical
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby paratactical » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:28 pm

Are you guys about to try to sell us copies of The Secret?




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