ABA actually warns against law school

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:22 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Being a law student with debt isn't that bad. You can easily make enough money to live.

But most entry level law jobs do not make enough money to pay off the massive cost of school.

T13 or free is TCR.


TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.


Big law has good exit options if you last more than a couple years. But if you get Lathamed (and yes HYS got Lathamed) you are right.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:25 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
bk1 wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.


Live like a hobo and pay it off in 5 years? :P


Not as crazy as it sounds actually.. Ive seriously thought about it. 96k/yr minus 3,500/month still leaves 54,000/yr post tax. It depends on if me and the SO last.


TITCR. If I get big law I'm paying it in four years.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
bk1 wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.


Live like a hobo and pay it off in 5 years? :P


Not as crazy as it sounds actually.. Ive seriously thought about it. 96k/yr minus 3,500/month still leaves 54,000/yr post tax. It depends on if me and the SO last.


TITCR. If I get big law I'm paying it in four years.


that's right, if you can borrow $45k a year, you can pay back $45k a year when you make 150k.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:35 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
bk1 wrote:Live like a hobo and pay it off in 5 years? :P


Not as crazy as it sounds actually.. Ive seriously thought about it. 96k/yr minus 3,500/month still leaves 54,000/yr post tax. It depends on if me and the SO last.


TITCR. If I get big law I'm paying it in four years.


that's right, if you can borrow $45k a year, you can pay back $45k a year when you make 150k.


Not only that, but I'm living in an expensive area of chicago for under 30K a year. I can't imagine needing more than 40K to live how I'd want to. And more than 70K to live extravagantly.

With a family is different, but for single males. This shit should be easy.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:47 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Not only that, but I'm living in an expensive area of chicago for under 30K a year. I can't imagine needing more than 40K to live how I'd want to. And more than 70K to live extravagantly.

With a family is different, but for single males. This shit should be easy.


Bentley, or pay off the loan? Your choice :mrgreen:

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:48 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Not only that, but I'm living in an expensive area of chicago for under 30K a year. I can't imagine needing more than 40K to live how I'd want to. And more than 70K to live extravagantly.

With a family is different, but for single males. This shit should be easy.


Bentley, or pay off the loan? Your choice :mrgreen:


The firm would recognize my alphaness and make me partner.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Not only that, but I'm living in an expensive area of chicago for under 30K a year. I can't imagine needing more than 40K to live how I'd want to. And more than 70K to live extravagantly.

With a family is different, but for single males. This shit should be easy.


Bentley, or pay off the loan? Your choice :mrgreen:


The firm would recognize my alphaness and make me partner.


Just be sure to join whatever country club they use at the first chance for a nomination.

User avatar
bostonian
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bostonian » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:22 pm

ClayDavis wrote:Yet I'm sure we'll get 3 or 4 new provisionally-accredited shitschools within the next 5 years.


There's now a UMass Law School. You know, because Massachusetts doesn't have enough law schools as it is.

jayman6
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby jayman6 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:48 pm

So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:53 pm

jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.

motiontodismiss
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby motiontodismiss » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:54 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
r6_philly wrote:You guys need viable backup plans.


McKinsey. Business School. Then more of the same mercenary stuff.


I've seen you post this before, I'd be shocked if a 3.5 from NYU got you an interview with Mckinsey.


It will at some of the secondary Asian offices.

jayman6
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby jayman6 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.


Okay the vast majority of lawyers in this country to not get hired through OCI. There will still be mid-law and other jobs available. I understand that biglaw jobs are highly coveted and not very available these days, but even if the economy wasn't in the shitter biglaw job prospects still wouldn't be much better for most students.

User avatar
Patriot1208
Posts: 7044
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:28 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:09 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
r6_philly wrote:You guys need viable backup plans.


McKinsey. Business School. Then more of the same mercenary stuff.


I've seen you post this before, I'd be shocked if a 3.5 from NYU got you an interview with Mckinsey.


It will at some of the secondary Asian offices.


Do you have an asian language, because I was under the impression you needed a foreign language for most of those offices.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:11 pm

jayman6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.


Okay the vast majority of lawyers in this country to not get hired through OCI. There will still be mid-law and other jobs available. I understand that biglaw jobs are highly coveted and not very available these days, but even if the economy wasn't in the shitter biglaw job prospects still wouldn't be much better for most students.


Midlaw is mostly myth.

Even the economy recovers if you aren't going to a T18 school you probably won't make enough money to pay your loans back.

User avatar
mpasi
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby mpasi » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:17 pm

Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.

Aqualibrium
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:18 pm

jayman6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.


Okay the vast majority of lawyers in this country to not get hired through OCI. There will still be mid-law and other jobs available. I understand that biglaw jobs are highly coveted and not very available these days, but even if the economy wasn't in the shitter biglaw job prospects still wouldn't be much better for most students.



IMO and from my experience, it is a misconception that midlaw hiring is significantly different than big law hiring. There are still 2L SA's and there are still offers at the end of the summer. The only difference is instead of classes of 15,20,50 midlaw firms have classes of 2,3,5 and on the very very high end 8-10 ish.

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:20 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.


Okay the vast majority of lawyers in this country to not get hired through OCI. There will still be mid-law and other jobs available. I understand that biglaw jobs are highly coveted and not very available these days, but even if the economy wasn't in the shitter biglaw job prospects still wouldn't be much better for most students.


Midlaw is mostly myth.

Even the economy recovers if you aren't going to a T18 school you probably won't make enough money to pay your loans back.

That sounds pretty pessimistic but it is probably the correct answer since you said probably meaning >1/2 the class. Still, I think people are able to pay back their loans, just not comfortably.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:22 pm

mpasi wrote:Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.


Depends on the MBA ... much like depending on the JD. The problem is if you have what it takes to get into a top MBA, you probably will be ok with a top JD regardless (law job or no law job).

motiontodismiss
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby motiontodismiss » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:54 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Do you have an asian language, because I was under the impression you needed a foreign language for most of those offices.


Korean.

User avatar
Lwoods
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:27 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Lwoods » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:04 am

r6_philly wrote:
mpasi wrote:Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.


Depends on the MBA ... much like depending on the JD. The problem is if you have what it takes to get into a top MBA, you probably will be ok with a top JD regardless (law job or no law job).


Also, there's often little use for an MBA sans work experience. Ironically, once you have the requisite work experience for an MBA, the value-add is still negligible in many cases.

jayman6
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby jayman6 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:10 am

Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jayman6 wrote:So nobody is optimistic that those of us seeking to begin LS in 2011 will have better employment prospects in 2014 than those who are entering the job market in 2011?


OCI happens less than a year after you start law school.


Okay the vast majority of lawyers in this country to not get hired through OCI. There will still be mid-law and other jobs available. I understand that biglaw jobs are highly coveted and not very available these days, but even if the economy wasn't in the shitter biglaw job prospects still wouldn't be much better for most students.


Midlaw is mostly myth.

Even the economy recovers if you aren't going to a T18 school you probably won't make enough money to pay your loans back.


Okay, but that depends on how much a person has in loans. I don't need to run out and buy a new car and a new house as soon as I land my first job. Even if I'm making 60k a year, if I keep my debt to 50-80k I'm sure I will manage to pay it off just fine.

User avatar
emhellmer
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:53 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:23 am

mpasi wrote:Starting to think an MBA would be a much, much better idea.


An MBA is only a good idea if you have business experience (not just work experience, real experience) and are willing to accept the uncertainty of the market. IMHO, people who don't want to study the law because they can't be 100% positive that they will be earning $160K RIGHT AFTER graduation will not fare any better with an MBA, and should spend a few more years working so that they can get a better idea about what they really want to do with their careers.

In fact, I would bet that new MBAs are doing even worse than new JDs in this economy. No degree is a surefire ticket to wealth, period. Graduate school is always a bad idea if you aren't sure about what you want from your education.

Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby NayBoer » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:28 am

emhellmer wrote:Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.
This does not describe Nightrunner at all.

Aqualibrium
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:33 am

NayBoer wrote:
emhellmer wrote:Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.
This does not describe Nightrunner at all.


Or the ABA members who authored and supported the report Nightrunner quoted...

User avatar
emhellmer
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:53 am

Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby emhellmer » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:44 am

NayBoer wrote:
emhellmer wrote:Also, these threads are started by unemployed JDs who are trying to scare kids away from law school because they don't like the competition. They don't care about you; they are trying to scare you away with horror stories because they want to limit the supply of lawyers so that they can continue to charge $500 to cut and paste information into a form document. Period.
This does not describe Nightrunner at all.


Apologies then to the individual known as Nightrunner. However, one does need to consider the source when they look at frantic posts from users who are constantly trying to talk kids out of law school. Many of these users are pretty transparent. They strike me as a group who thought a JD was a surefire ticket to a six-figure income before 30, and amassed a HUGE amount of debt thinking that they could pay if off (for sure) in 4 years what with all the sure money they would be making as soon as they graduated. Then they did not get a job right away, and keep going on about how the market is "saturated" with lawyers. I assume they then start to look at graduating classes like they are taking food from their plate.

The market isn't "saturated." When 25 year olds are making $160,000 a year the day they graduate from school for no other reason than they have a JD, there is a shortage of lawyers, IMO. Everyone has to struggle at first, and most of us have to hustle like crazy to earn even a fraction of that. Those salaries were bound to come down at some point. All that said, amassing $200K in debt when you have no idea where you will get the money to pay it back is seldom a good idea.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: proteinshake, Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests