ABA actually warns against law school

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r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:54 pm

danquayle wrote:Why doesn't the ABA like, I dunno, stop accrediting law schools then? While we're all excited about the upcoming opening of the University of North Texas College of Law, isn't this a bit like heroin dealers sticking "WARNING: MAY BE ADDICTIVE" labels on their smack? This is just as disingenuous.


It's a great business, it provides jobs, and looks good on paper by providing quality educational opportunities to residents. There is a strong demand, I really don't see any downsides to this as an administrator/public leader. The poor students who borrow massive FEDERAL money and spending it in state is helping the cause.

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danquayle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby danquayle » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:
danquayle wrote:Why doesn't the ABA like, I dunno, stop accrediting law schools then? While we're all excited about the upcoming opening of the University of North Texas College of Law, isn't this a bit like heroin dealers sticking "WARNING: MAY BE ADDICTIVE" labels on their smack? This is just as disingenuous.


It's a great business, it provides jobs, and looks good on paper by providing quality educational opportunities to residents. There is a strong demand, I really don't see any downsides to this as an administrator/public leader. The poor students who borrow massive FEDERAL money and spending it in state is helping the cause.


It depends on what level you're talking about. If you're speaking as a city or college administrator, then sure you'd love to have that revenue rolling in. But if you're talking about something higher, like a governor, then its wildly wildly wasteful to have some of your brightest people waste three years of their school working towards nil payout, followed by hamstrung career options. Not to mention the lost time and capital that goes into the law school operations itself. It's just wildly inefficient. Sure, there are benefits to certain actors, but the negative externalities are just massive.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:04 pm

danquayle wrote:It depends on what level you're talking about. If you're speaking as a city or college administrator, then sure you'd love to have that revenue rolling in. But if you're talking about something higher, like a governor, then its wildly wildly wasteful to have some of your brightest people waste three years of their school working towards nil payout, followed by hamstrung career options. Not to mention the lost time and capital that goes into the law school operations itself. It's just wildly inefficient. Sure, there are benefits to certain actors, but the negative externalities are just massive.


I don't think the negatives will come out within the time frame of a governor's term(s). If it looks positive at first, they would support it, especially if they could have gotten some stimulus money and/or other grants. Our government/policy formation operates at term intervals and are notoriously short sighted as a unfortunate result.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:04 pm

r6_philly wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:I'm turning 30 in two years, and honestly, I'm just looking forward to finally making over 20k in a year and not stressing constantly about paying rent. It definitely sucks that I can't even be thinking about kids right now, but I think I'd be very happy with a 40k job provided that the work was fun and took me to court a lot. I could give a shit about upgrading from my '96 Honda Accord as long as I have enough money for rent, insurance, gym membership and some of my random hobbies. The way I look at it is that just about everyone works hard, and lots of people bust their ass and still have nothing, so I gotta count my blessings to just have a way get by.

Long story short - bring on the doc review if I can't find nothing else, I'm not scared :mrgreen:


That's a good attitude, but you really have to prepare for the future. You don't think about family right now, but what if you meet the right person, whenever that happens would you be ready? What about retirement?

It hit me when I turned 30, that's when I decided to go back to school and try to upgrade my future. Living contracts to contracts was just not as cool when you have kids and family. And your spouse may want to live a $200k lifestyle since she knows you are capable ;)

Hah, yeah, I hear you on that. I'm very confident in my ability to do kick ass legal work, so I think that as long as I land a job that lets me litigate, I'll be able to build my resume and progressively improve my job prospects. I've got no objection to working ridiculous hours as a public defender or small shop personal injury litigator, and I think that even if I wind up in doc review I can find ways to build my resume as a litigator and/or trial attorney so as to get one of those jobs (for example, doing side work as a court appointed attorney representing parents in dependency cases).

Ten years down the line, I'm hoping to start my own practice. I've spoken to several solo practitioners as part of my networking efforts, and they almost universally say that it affords them a great life and a great scope to pursue the kinds of work they want to be doing. Ideally I'll eventually build a client base that lets me earn enough for retirement, medical bills as I age, etc. etc.

Wow, I've really derailed this thread talking about my personal life goals :mrgreen:

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:08 pm

johnnyutah wrote:Hah, yeah, I hear you on that. I'm very confident in my ability to do kick ass legal work, so I think that as long as I land a job that lets me litigate, I'll be able to build my resume and progressively improve my job prospects. I've got no objection to working ridiculous hours as a public defender or small shop personal injury litigator, and I think that even if I wind up in doc review I can find ways to build my resume as a litigator and/or trial attorney so as to get one of those jobs (for example, doing side work as a court appointed attorney representing parents in dependency cases).

Ten years down the line, I'm hoping to start my own practice. I've spoken to several solo practitioners as part of my networking efforts, and they almost universally say that it affords them a great life and a great scope to pursue the kinds of work they want to be doing. Ideally I'll eventually build a client base that lets me earn enough for retirement, medical bills as I age, etc. etc.

Wow, I've really derailed this thread talking about my personal life goals :mrgreen:


Let's have that beer and keep in touch, we may be able to collaborate down the road. I plan to run my firm in about the same time frame.

I am actually going to run a small immigration firm asap by putting up the initial investment and hiring a local grad to do the work. We have large family connections/referrals and should have no issues getting clients/business.

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:12 pm

ClayDavis wrote:You are spectacularly wrong about this. I have a shit degree from an elite liberal arts college. Trust me, there are no "business" jobs out there for people like me. I've been trying for 2 years.

Edit: and have a decent (3.5+) GPA.


ITE it's harder no doubt. But I worked with plenty of people who had shitty art degrees from shitty colleges. They worked their way up from entry level data entry jobs to product management jobs.

But nobody is going to hire you to manage shit. You have to be the grunt.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:13 pm

r6_philly wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:Hah, yeah, I hear you on that. I'm very confident in my ability to do kick ass legal work, so I think that as long as I land a job that lets me litigate, I'll be able to build my resume and progressively improve my job prospects. I've got no objection to working ridiculous hours as a public defender or small shop personal injury litigator, and I think that even if I wind up in doc review I can find ways to build my resume as a litigator and/or trial attorney so as to get one of those jobs (for example, doing side work as a court appointed attorney representing parents in dependency cases).

Ten years down the line, I'm hoping to start my own practice. I've spoken to several solo practitioners as part of my networking efforts, and they almost universally say that it affords them a great life and a great scope to pursue the kinds of work they want to be doing. Ideally I'll eventually build a client base that lets me earn enough for retirement, medical bills as I age, etc. etc.

Wow, I've really derailed this thread talking about my personal life goals :mrgreen:


Let's have that beer and keep in touch, we may be able to collaborate down the road. I plan to run my firm in about the same time frame.

I am actually going to run a small immigration firm asap by putting up the initial investment and hiring a local grad to do the work. We have large family connections/referrals and should have no issues getting clients/business.

Nice, the referrals/clients are the key part of starting a practice from what I understand. What kind of clients are you planning on getting? I think the big money is in drafting visa applications on behalf of companies looking to employ foreign workers such that the applications speak to the INA's irritating legal standards.

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mrmangs
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby mrmangs » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:15 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:I'm turning 30 in two years, and honestly, I'm just looking forward to finally making over 20k in a year and not stressing constantly about paying rent. It definitely sucks that I can't even be thinking about kids right now, but I think I'd be very happy with a 40k job provided that the work was fun and took me to court a lot. I could give a shit about upgrading from my '96 Honda Accord as long as I have enough money for rent, insurance, gym membership and some of my random hobbies. The way I look at it is that just about everyone works hard, and lots of people bust their ass and still have nothing, so I gotta count my blessings to just have a way get by.

Long story short - bring on the doc review if I can't find nothing else, I'm not scared :mrgreen:


That's a good attitude, but you really have to prepare for the future. You don't think about family right now, but what if you meet the right person, whenever that happens would you be ready? What about retirement?

It hit me when I turned 30, that's when I decided to go back to school and try to upgrade my future. Living contracts to contracts was just not as cool when you have kids and family. And your spouse may want to live a $200k lifestyle since she knows you are capable ;)

Hah, yeah, I hear you on that. I'm very confident in my ability to do kick ass legal work, so I think that as long as I land a job that lets me litigate, I'll be able to build my resume and progressively improve my job prospects. I've got no objection to working ridiculous hours as a public defender or small shop personal injury litigator, and I think that even if I wind up in doc review I can find ways to build my resume as a litigator and/or trial attorney so as to get one of those jobs (for example, doing side work as a court appointed attorney representing parents in dependency cases).

Ten years down the line, I'm hoping to start my own practice. I've spoken to several solo practitioners as part of my networking efforts, and they almost universally say that it affords them a great life and a great scope to pursue the kinds of work they want to be doing. Ideally I'll eventually build a client base that lets me earn enough for retirement, medical bills as I age, etc. etc.

Wow, I've really derailed this thread talking about my personal life goals :mrgreen:


While not a conventional plan for TLS, this is very legitimate. I would avoid doc review like the plague, but if you gotta do it... Everything else is on point from a progressing within the small firm perspective. And people who start their own small firms can make a lot more than those who went the BigLaw route. If you get as much litigation experience as possible, are diligent, conscientious, and communicative with your clients, and develop some business sense, this is all realistic.

Networking with other attorneys and knowing your strengths/weaknesses are two other key assets. When it comes time to build your own firm, you need to know what you are good at and what sort of talent you need to bring in to supplement your weak areas. Running a firm requires business and leadership/teamwork skills as much as it requires a book of business and lawyering skills.

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:18 pm

ClayDavis wrote:
paratactical wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:What do you currently do?

I'm a biglaw IP litigation paralegal.

Oh. Yea, I am too haha. Not that this is a terrible job; there just isn't any room for advancement. And having looked for other jobs with this on my resume, the first question people ask is, "well, why aren't you going to LS?" I have what I think are some pretty good reasons/explanations, but they haven't seemed to work yet.


Wait you have a paralegal job and you are bitching about not having a job?

Do you think people are going to put you in charge of a company or something with your shitty liberal art degree and no experience? I think you are setting your expectations too high.

People who excel in business and making tons of money are talented at it.

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johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:22 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ClayDavis wrote:Sounds pretty cool. Any reason you're not doing an MBA? Also, do you mind if I ask how you got into that field?


I want to sue people? :lol:

TCR. Litigation is great fun. It's like playing a sport, really, just with more at stake.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:24 pm

johnnyutah wrote:Nice, the referrals/clients are the key part of starting a practice from what I understand. What kind of clients are you planning on getting? I think the big money is in drafting visa applications on behalf of companies looking to employ foreign workers such that the applications speak to the INA's irritating legal standards.


I'm Chinese and my wife is Jamaican, we will have a large referral base. Where I live now is also flooded with African immigrants as well. A big thing is immigrants/potential immigrants trust other immigrants more/only, so I think if I opened a practice here, I can do very well. Employment based immigration is where the big money is at but also competitive. Family based immigration, while low profit, is probably easier and more straight forward. Most immigrants are afraid of even filling out forms and assembling files by themselves, so if you charge a reasonable amount, you will not run out of clients/business even just filing petitions and represent them at hearings. Everyone makes a killing doing simple, straight tax returns in my area for the same reason - people are just intimidated and would pay someone else to do it.

09042014
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:30 pm

Being a law student with debt isn't that bad. You can easily make enough money to live.

But most entry level law jobs do not make enough money to pay off the massive cost of school.

T13 or free is TCR.

BlueDiamond
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby BlueDiamond » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:31 pm

are we still talking about how much we hate the ABA?

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Being a law student with debt isn't that bad. You can easily make enough money to live.

But most entry level law jobs do not make enough money to pay off the massive cost of school.

T13 T9 or free is TCR.


:P

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:45 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Being a law student with debt isn't that bad. You can easily make enough money to live.

But most entry level law jobs do not make enough money to pay off the massive cost of school.

T13 or free is TCR.


TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:47 pm

tkgrrett wrote:TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.


Live like a hobo and pay it off in 5 years? :P

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:TBF, Im having a hard time definitively seeing how even HYS offers a good ROI even for people who have to take out on the low-end(135-150k+) in debt. There is just way too much uncertainty involved with the legal profession. Its like you can get the 160k payday for 3-5 years and have no trouble paying the 1500-1900/month in loans but then what happens next?? You still have 5-7 years of the same loan payments and no real idea where you will be.


Live like a hobo and pay it off in 5 years? :P


Not as crazy as it sounds actually.. Ive seriously thought about it. 96k/yr minus 3,500/month still leaves 54,000/yr post tax. It depends on if me and the SO last.

jasonc.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby jasonc. » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:00 pm

To those who have a decent paying job why leave to go to law school?

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bk1
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:12 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Not as crazy as it sounds actually.. Ive seriously thought about it. 96k/yr minus 3,500/month still leaves 54,000/yr post tax. It depends on if me and the SO last.


I've given it serious thought as well, but not gonna count chickens before they hatch.

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Lwoods
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:45 pm

minuit wrote:the ABA should take some pointers from the AMA.


The AMA isn't responsible for medical school accreditation; the AAMC is (in the US). Sorry to pick on you; that just comes up a lot.


Also, ditto para and DF re the job stuff. I moved to a new city beginning of June and by the end of that month, I secured a job I enjoy that pays well. I had a temp gig the first week and am still contacted by the temp agency on occasion. I designed my own major. Yeah, unemployment is high in this country, but there are jobs out there, even for liberal arts kids. Networking is paramount, though.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:47 pm

jasonc. wrote:To those who have a decent paying job why leave to go to law school?


Make more eventually; do something you always wanted to do; think you would enjoy law better; dislike for the current career path (but know you can be successful doing something else)... Making money isn't what it's all about, being able to do something we (think that we) enjoy while making money is better. Besides back to the original topic, many of us have good backup plans (current career) so the risk isn't that great.

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Lwoods
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
jasonc. wrote:To those who have a decent paying job why leave to go to law school?


Make more eventually; do something you always wanted to do; think you would enjoy law better; dislike for the current career path (but know you can be successful doing something else)... Making money isn't what it's all about, being able to do something we (think that we) enjoy while making money is better. Besides back to the original topic, many of us have good backup plans (current career) so the risk isn't that great.


The bolded are my reasons, more or less. I don't necessarily dislike my current career path, but I've just learned I love words more than numbers. And I'll feel unfulfilled if I go through life never getting my JD. My current job is great, though, with a lot of room for advancement, so I really have thought long and hard about this decision.

r6_philly
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:56 pm

Lwoods wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
jasonc. wrote:To those who have a decent paying job why leave to go to law school?


Make more eventually; do something you always wanted to do; think you would enjoy law better; dislike for the current career path (but know you can be successful doing something else)... Making money isn't what it's all about, being able to do something we (think that we) enjoy while making money is better. Besides back to the original topic, many of us have good backup plans (current career) so the risk isn't that great.


The bolded are my reasons, more or less. I don't necessarily dislike my current career path, but I've just learned I love words more than numbers. And I'll feel unfulfilled if I go through life never getting my JD. My current job is great, though, with a lot of room for advancement, so I really have thought long and hard about this decision.


And I am sure you would have success in law!

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Lwoods
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:02 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Lwoods wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
jasonc. wrote:To those who have a decent paying job why leave to go to law school?


Make more eventually; do something you always wanted to do; think you would enjoy law better; dislike for the current career path (but know you can be successful doing something else)... Making money isn't what it's all about, being able to do something we (think that we) enjoy while making money is better. Besides back to the original topic, many of us have good backup plans (current career) so the risk isn't that great.


The bolded are my reasons, more or less. I don't necessarily dislike my current career path, but I've just learned I love words more than numbers. And I'll feel unfulfilled if I go through life never getting my JD. My current job is great, though, with a lot of room for advancement, so I really have thought long and hard about this decision.


And I am sure you would have success in law!


Thank you! You as well, of course. :D

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Re: ABA actually warns against law school

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Being a law student with debt isn't that bad. You can easily make enough money to live.

But most entry level law jobs do not make enough money to pay off the massive cost of school.

T13 T9 or free is TCR.


:P


As long as we agree that michigan isn't included TITCR.




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