ABA actually warns against law school Forum

[cinephile]

The problem isn't that it is impossible to pay those loans off at $70K/year; the problem is landing a $70K/year job.

This. This is the point. It's not just odds of making a certain amount of money but odds of finding a job requiring the degree at all.

Finding a $70K/yr job is not guaranteed even from T14. Some find work that pays even less, a few don't find any legal work at all. It's a lot more likely from T14 than lower-tier schools, but even then it's nowhere near a sure thing.

What percentage of T14 graduates get jobs that pay below the $72,000 median salary? And how long do they fall short?

Nothing is ever a sure thing in this economy, especially for a liberal arts graduate. Even going back to school for a hard science degree and graduating with a new B.S. 3 years later would not guarantee a good job or any job at all. What's the alternative?

1) Go to law school
2) Go back to undergrad to study something useful
3) Wait tables
4) Move to Asia to teach English (or study something useful in Asia to get a real job and have everyone look funny at you, the foreigner, with a degree from Beijing University)

...you don't need to get a new degree to switch fields... You can have a history degree and work in business. The problem is too many Gen-Yers expect to be making $70k+ right away in a career. Since working in business (not in finance or accounting, but one of the many other roles involved in running a business) requires working your way up from a $40k position for years before reaching 6-figures, many don't consider it as an option. Instead they think, "hey, I could just go to law school and make $100k right after that".

Maybe amongst the people you know, but none of my friends or I expect to make $70k a year right away. We would be thrilled with a $40k job.

[bk1]

What percentage of T14 graduates get jobs that pay below the $72,000 median salary? And how long do they fall short?

Nothing is ever a sure thing in this economy, especially for a liberal arts graduate. Even going back to school for a hard science degree and graduating with a new B.S. 3 years later would not guarantee a good job or any job at all. What's the alternative?

1) Go to law school
2) Go back to undergrad to study something useful
3) Wait tables
4) Move to Asia to teach English

As for #2, I'm not sure the job market is that great for 28-year-olds with a liberal arts (age 22) + a hard science degree (age 28) and table-waiting experience, either.

If one assumes that those who don't make biglaw end up in low paying jobs (in the sizable chunk that sits lower than the 72k median), then it seems to be something like 1/3 or so of all T14's.

You're also nonchalantly discounting the option of actually working and moving yourself up. Most of my friends are humanities or liberal arts majors and have found work that pays okay starting out but they can either grow in that company or climb to another company after working there for a while.

Sure, it's not as easy as if they had a better degree but it isn't the shithole that everybody makes it out to be.

[bk1]

Why couldn't one pay off $150,000 in loans (at a T14) on $70,000 per year in less than 5 years?

Live in a city where you can ride the subway to work, don't buy a car, shop at Safeway, order suits from Bangkok, don't eat out, don't date (unless you're a girl who can get a guy who pays for everything), get a small studio in the slums, and you could be paying more than half your income towards debt repayment. $40,000 X 5= 200,000. After five years, then you can enjoy life on a much higher salary than you would have gotten had you just gotten a graduate degree in your old little liberal arts subject.

Maybe I just came from an old-fashioned family that taught me about frugal living, unlike those more "cool" typical Americans who think they can't "live" unless they make a more ostentatious display of wealth than their neighbors.

I agree that attending anything lower than a T14 or an unrivaled regional player in the T20, like Texas, is a bad idea, but I disagree that one either has to gun for Big Law or die.

I just wanted to add on to what NR said and say that every T14 is at or above $200k in loans and not $150k. You also seem to be ignoring taxes.

[niederbomb]

What percentage of T14 graduates get jobs that pay below the $72,000 median salary? And how long do they fall short?

Nothing is ever a sure thing in this economy, especially for a liberal arts graduate. Even going back to school for a hard science degree and graduating with a new B.S. 3 years later would not guarantee a good job or any job at all. What's the alternative?

1) Go to law school
2) Go back to undergrad to study something useful
3) Wait tables
4) Move to Asia to teach English

As for #2, I'm not sure the job market is that great for 28-year-olds with a liberal arts (age 22) + a hard science degree (age 28) and table-waiting experience, either.

If one assumes that those who don't make biglaw end up in low paying jobs (in the sizable chunk that sits lower than the 72k median), then it seems to be something like 1/3 or so of all T14's.

You're also nonchalantly discounting the option of actually working and moving yourself up. Most of my friends are humanities or liberal arts majors and have found work that pays okay starting out but they can either grow in that company or climb to another company after working there for a while.

Sure, it's not as easy as if they had a better degree but it isn't the shithole that everybody makes it out to be.

You mean point to a big city on a map and move there cold? Everything's all good and well when you live near a decent urban area, and some of your family/friends have white collar jobs. In rural areas, there's always Wal Mart!

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

I currently work for a visa consulting company in a third-world country. It's not like I'm not creative. But I need a big upgrade to my alma mater to go anywhere good in the long term. And it's hilarious that I had to travel to a struggling developing country to find a real job after getting shut out at home. I like it, but I'm freezing and can hardly breath the coal-choked air, and I have to go through an unprotected X-ray each year. At least I have a job while most of my friends back home don't. But T14 sounds pretty good, if I can manage it.

[niederbomb]

The problem isn't that it is impossible to pay those loans off at $70K/year; the problem is landing a $70K/year job.

This. This is the point. It's not just odds of making a certain amount of money but odds of finding a job requiring the degree at all.

Finding a $70K/yr job is not guaranteed even from T14. Some find work that pays even less, a few don't find any legal work at all. It's a lot more likely from T14 than lower-tier schools, but even then it's nowhere near a sure thing.

Law School Transparency seems to have pretty complete data for most of the T14. Even if you count most of the "not reporting" as "unemployed or employed at a low salary," at least 60% of T14 graduates appear to make $100,000 or more. Some of the lower salaries are clerkships.

Here's Duke, for example: --LinkRemoved--

Only 18% make under $145,000, and 10% don't report. So, at most, that's about 30% in undesirable jobs.

[bk1]

Law School Transparency seems to have pretty complete data for most of the T14. Even if you count most of the "not reporting" as "unemployed or employed at a low salary," at least 60% of T14 graduates appear to make $100,000 or more. At some schools, like Duke ( --LinkRemoved--), the percentage is higher at about 70%.

That data is laughably old.

ITE, maybe you've heard of it?

[bk1]

You mean point to a big city on a map and move there cold? Everything's all good and well when you live near a decent urban area, and some of your family/friends have white collar jobs. In rural areas, there's always Wal Mart!

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

I currently work for a visa consulting company in a third-world country. It's not like I'm not creative. But I need a big upgrade to my alma mater to go anywhere good in the long term. And it's hilarious that I had to travel to a struggling developing country to find a real job after getting shut out at home. I like it, but I'm freezing and can hardly breath the coal-choked air, and I have to go through an unprotected X-ray each year. At least I have a job while most of my friends back home don't. But T14 sounds pretty good, if I can manage it.

Of course the opportunities are far fewer in rural areas. I actually think moving to an urban/suburban center, even without connections, is probably worth it if you can't find a job in Bumfuck County.

[Lwoods]

You mean point to a big city on a map and move there cold? Everything's all good and well when you live near a decent urban area, and some of your family/friends have white collar jobs. In rural areas, there's always Wal Mart!

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

I currently work for a visa consulting company in a third-world country. It's not like I'm not creative. But I need a big upgrade to my alma mater to go anywhere good in the long term. And it's hilarious that I had to travel to a struggling developing country to find a real job after getting shut out at home. I like it, but I'm freezing and can hardly breath the coal-choked air, and I have to go through an unprotected X-ray each year. At least I have a job while most of my friends back home don't. But T14 sounds pretty good, if I can manage it.

Of course the opportunities are far fewer in rural areas. I actually think moving to an urban/suburban center, even without connections, is probably worth it if you can't find a job in Bumfuck County.

Agreed. fwiw, I moved to a Midwestern city last summer for my husband's job and got my current job through an online application. I think worrying that employers won't know your school is a legitimate concern. So, I would think your best bet would be to look to the closest big city.

If you truly are passionate about law, I think it's worth the risk. But if you're not or you just don't know yet, take a year or two (or five, like me ) and try stuff out. If you have absolutely zero work experience, sign up with a temp firm to get your feet wet and try a few different industries. I think it's better to take a few extra years figuring out what you want to do than investing a large sum of money and years of your life into a career only to discover you hate it.

[r6_philly]

I was driving to work this morning, and there was a radio commercial of a tech company begging for java developers. They paid for an ad on radio to look for job applicants!!!

[emhellmer]

.

Thank you for the informative response, vanwinkle. Truly appreciated.

I wonder if people's attitudes would be different if we were in a booming legal market. But I think the "doom/gloom" attitude is pervasive throughout the professional world. My doctor says he should have gone to law school and my lawyer says he should have gone to med school... When asked why, both of them whine about how you just can't make the kind of money you used to.[/quote]

A doctor who wishes they were a lawyer and a lawyer who wishes they were a doctor? Yikes! I think a big part of the problem is people going to school in order to pursue professions that they aren't particularly keen on because they want sure money. Sound advice in any economy would be: DON'T GO INTO $200,000 WORTH OF DEBT IN ORDER TO GET A JOB YOU DON'T REALLY WANT JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER TO DO. Both of those guys would have been better off speculating on real estate.

[emhellmer]

Thank you for the informative response, vanwinkle. Truly appreciated.

I wonder if people's attitudes would be different if we were in a booming legal market. But I think the "doom/gloom" attitude is pervasive throughout the professional world. My doctor says he should have gone to law school and my lawyer says he should have gone to med school... When asked why, both of them whine about how you just can't make the kind of money you used to.

So the credited response probably is don't go to either.

Everywhere is doom/gloom, but that doesn't mean you should be plonking down 6 figures to take part in the doom/gloom of a different field.

I haven't figured out how to quote properly. My above post was in response to this exchange.

[bk1]

I haven't figured out how to quote properly. My above post was in response to this exchange.

My response would be that, when looking at it from a mostly financial perspective it is probably worthwhile to discount your personal preferences for a certain profession when that profession will cost you 200k and not return close enough to justify that.

[emhellmer]

...you don't need to get a new degree to switch fields... You can have a history degree and work in business. The problem is too many Gen-Yers expect to be making $70k+ right away in a career. Since working in business (not in finance or accounting, but one of the many other roles involved in running a business) requires working your way up from a $40k position for years before reaching 6-figures, many don't consider it as an option. Instead they think, "hey, I could just go to law school and make $100k right after that".
This is wrong on many levels:
*You probably won't be making $100k+ right out of law school.
*There's a good chance you'll never break $100k (in today's $) in your career.
*It doesn't take into consideration whether or not you'd actually enjoy a career in law.
*It (wrongly) assumes liberal arts majors aren't qualified for, well, anything.

I work for a Fortunate 500 retailer. I work along side business majors, yes, but also liberal arts and fine arts majors. I know English majors who work in PR at major companies and poli sci majors working in corporate events planning. You don't have to go into law if you majored in liberal arts. Don't be so close-minded. If you're smart enough to get into a T14 but hate law, you'll be far better off climbing the corporate ladder.

[/quote]

This. I'll also add that too many Gen-Yers have had it drilled into our heads that a degree is a sure-fire ticket to employment period. I've noticed more and more of my peers shying away from the "college or bust" mindset. Too many of us grew up listening to that nonsense from our parents only to notice tradespeople with a training certificate making huge money at a steady job. There are a lot of ways to make money and have a good job, but most of those involve something besides sitting in a library and ace-ing exams.

[observationalist]

Law School Transparency seems to have pretty complete data for most of the T14. Even if you count most of the "not reporting" as "unemployed or employed at a low salary," at least 60% of T14 graduates appear to make $100,000 or more. At some schools, like Duke ( --LinkRemoved--), the percentage is higher at about 70%.

That data is laughably old.

ITE, maybe you've heard of it?

Yeah, that number reflects the Class of 2008, which means they did OCI in 2006-2007), which means that data does not reflect the hiring downturn at all.

Hopefully those guys (@ LST) get their hands on the c/o 2009/2010 data soon; although I admit it might be scary, I'd still like to know.

We can't because the data is what schools report to U.S. News. Due out soon is the Class of 2009 data, but that is still pre-ITE. The only way any of you are going to know what happened with the Class of 2010 (except for those of you considering Ave Maria) is to call up career services and use your acceptance as leverage to get employer lists for 2010 grads. Schools are currently finishing up their collection of the '10 data and will be reporting it to NALP, ABA, USNews etc at the end of February. The data will be fresh in their minds and I'm sure they will be happy to share it with you if you explain why it matters so much.

[johnnyutah]

You mean point to a big city on a map and move there cold? Everything's all good and well when you live near a decent urban area, and some of your family/friends have white collar jobs. In rural areas, there's always Wal Mart!

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

I currently work for a visa consulting company in a third-world country. It's not like I'm not creative. But I need a big upgrade to my alma mater to go anywhere good in the long term. And it's hilarious that I had to travel to a struggling developing country to find a real job after getting shut out at home. I like it, but I'm freezing and can hardly breath the coal-choked air, and I have to go through an unprotected X-ray each year. At least I have a job while most of my friends back home don't. But T14 sounds pretty good, if I can manage it.

Of course the opportunities are far fewer in rural areas. I actually think moving to an urban/suburban center, even without connections, is probably worth it if you can't find a job in Bumfuck County.

Agreed. fwiw, I moved to a Midwestern city last summer for my husband's job and got my current job through an online application. I think worrying that employers won't know your school is a legitimate concern. So, I would think your best bet would be to look to the closest big city.

If you truly are passionate about law, I think it's worth the risk. But if you're not or you just don't know yet, take a year or two (or five, like me ) and try stuff out. If you have absolutely zero work experience, sign up with a temp firm to get your feet wet and try a few different industries. I think it's better to take a few extra years figuring out what you want to do than investing a large sum of money and years of your life into a career only to discover you hate it.

As a t-14 3L with no offers, here's my two cents:

I think that neider is underestimating the risk in today's legal market. I don't have up to date employment data on the t-14 (because no one does), but from what I can tell, a huge number of my classmates will probably be graduating with no job and will be lucky to find something in the 45k-55k range. It is very far from a given that you'll be able to find something no matter where you go to school, the jobs you may ultimately find are often not great. Frankly, waiting tables is in many ways a preferable alternative to low paying part time doc review work; you get paid in cash, you have a consistent schedule, and you're likely to have time for yourself.

On the other hand, I think Lwoods and bk are underestimating how hard it is to break in to jobs that offer useful experience and the possibility for upward mobility. If you don't have any family or friend connections and don't have useful skills or experience to begin with, even temping jobs may be out of reach as recent college grad. Also, while it may be true that prospects are better in a big city, lots of people can't even scrape up the money to move to one in order to chase after those jobs.

Depending on where you are and what your background is, a t-14, even with the risk of failure, can make sense as a way to lift yourself up regardless of your passion for the law. That said, I also think this is true of a very, very small minority of people accepted to t-14s every year.

[Sandro]

On the other hand, I think Lwoods and bk are underestimating how hard it is to break in to jobs that offer useful experience and the possibility for upward mobility. If you don't have any family or friend connections and don't have useful skills or experience to begin with, even temping jobs may be out of reach as recent college grad. Also, while it may be true that prospects are better in a big city, lots of people can't even scrape up the money to move to one in order to chase after those jobs.

This. IMO one of the biggest things that gets overlooked in all of this discussion. The assumption that any recent college grad can land a 30-40k job as an alternative to LS is silly. Some people need to retake Macro and go look at some US economic statistics.

[Lwoods]

On the other hand, I think Lwoods and bk are underestimating how hard it is to break in to jobs that offer useful experience and the possibility for upward mobility. If you don't have any family or friend connections and don't have useful skills or experience to begin with, even temping jobs may be out of reach as recent college grad. Also, while it may be true that prospects are better in a big city, lots of people can't even scrape up the money to move to one in order to chase after those jobs.

This. IMO one of the biggest things that gets overlooked in all of this discussion. The assumption that any recent college grad can land a 30-40k job as an alternative to LS is silly. Some people need to retake Macro and go look at some US economic statistics.

I suppose. But I'm saying this as someone in the job market, as someone who moved to a secondary city with no connections and a liberal arts degree. I got my job through an online posting and serious follow-up once I received a screening interview. I was also offered a job by a company who saw my resume on Monster. I know it's hard for many people, but if you're the caliber of person who can get into a T14, chances are you have a lot of qualities employers like as well (namely problem solving skills).

Can any college grad get these jobs? Of course not. But I believe more can than realize it.

[Sandro]

On the other hand, I think Lwoods and bk are underestimating how hard it is to break in to jobs that offer useful experience and the possibility for upward mobility. If you don't have any family or friend connections and don't have useful skills or experience to begin with, even temping jobs may be out of reach as recent college grad. Also, while it may be true that prospects are better in a big city, lots of people can't even scrape up the money to move to one in order to chase after those jobs.

This. IMO one of the biggest things that gets overlooked in all of this discussion. The assumption that any recent college grad can land a 30-40k job as an alternative to LS is silly. Some people need to retake Macro and go look at some US economic statistics.

I suppose. But I'm saying this as someone in the job market, as someone who moved to a secondary city with no connections and a liberal arts degree. I got my job through an online posting and serious follow-up once I received a screening interview. I was also offered a job by a company who saw my resume on Monster. I know it's hard for many people, but if you're the caliber of person who can get into a T14, chances are you have a lot of qualities employers like as well (namely problem solving skills).

Can any college grad get these jobs? Of course not. But I believe more can than realize it.

That is your personal experience. Do you ever wonder how many hundreds of people applied for that job online ? The fact is there are millions less jobs now than a few years ago. Job growth is barely keeping up with population. I'm not saying its impossible but you have to look at these things with some perspective.

[romothesavior]

Landing $70K per year from a T14 or T20 is that difficult?

--ImageRemoved--/quote]
Just wanna say how much I hate this graph.

[johnnyutah]

I know it's hard for many people, but if you're the caliber of person who can get into a T14, chances are you have a lot of qualities employers like as well (namely problem solving skills).

I disagree with this in three ways:

1) The "caliber of person" who gets in to a t-14 is very often totally unequipped to function in a blue collar or entry level white collar workplace. You seem to be assuming that t-14 folks will likely be good at their temping or entry level HR job. I think this is a flawed assumption.

2) You also seem to be assuming that syllogistic problem solving skills have some bearing on most entry level jobs. I don't think that's true at all.

3) Finally, you seem to be assuming that it is possible to communicate to an employer that you are really smart without having any experience or skills that prove it. Imagine that you have only the following on your resume:

Undergraduate degree in English from a state school
No clubs or extra curricular activities because you worked while going to school
2 years experience waiting tables
1 year experience working at Best Buy
1 year experience working for McDonald's

Even assuming that an employer cares that you rock at syllogistic reasoning, how are they going to know? Assuming further that they've gotten 500 resumes for the job opening and can't interview everyone, why on earth would they pick your resume out of the stack to call?

On a side note, I'm curious as to where you got the money to move to a new city without having a job nailed down there first.

[jayman6]

I know it's hard for many people, but if you're the caliber of person who can get into a T14, chances are you have a lot of qualities employers like as well (namely problem solving skills).

I disagree with this in three ways:

1) The "caliber of person" who gets in to a t-14 is very often totally unequipped to function in a blue collar or entry level white collar workplace. You seem to be assuming that t-14 folks will likely be good at their temping or entry level HR job. I think this is a flawed assumption.

2) You also seem to be assuming that syllogistic problem solving skills have some bearing on most entry level jobs. I don't think that's true at all.

3) Finally, you seem to be assuming that it is possible to communicate to an employer that you are really smart without having any experience or skills that prove it. Imagine that you have only the following on your resume:

Undergraduate degree in English from a state school
No clubs or extra curricular activities because you worked while going to school
2 years experience waiting tables
1 year experience working at Best Buy
1 year experience working for McDonald's

Even assuming that an employer cares that you rock at syllogistic reasoning, how are they going to know? Assuming further that they've gotten 500 resumes for the job opening and can't interview everyone, why on earth would they pick your resume out of the stack to call?

On a side note, I'm curious as to where you got the money to move to a new city without having a job nailed down there first.

I didn't get into a t-14 school, but I also think I'll end up with a legal job. I don't think I'll get paid 160k a year, but I've gotten 2/3 tuition scholarships from most schools I've been accepted to--these schools are in the 70-80 range for rankings. I also think that people like myself who actually have experience will fare better than others when seeking jobs. I've done two internships in Washington, DC and have done two internships with the legislature in my state. All of these internships have allowed me to gain valuable experience and I've gotten excellent references from everyone I've worked for. I think it goes a long way when a person is hired for competitive internships and succeeds in them. I understand that these are just internships, but I think the references will go a long way, especially since being an intern in my small state's understaffed legislature is the equivalent of being a legislative aid in most other states.

Perhaps someone would like to disagree with me. I just think that prior experience and good references will definitely give people like me the leg up over the person who hasn't worked for four years and went straight into law school and has nothing to show for it.

[r6_philly]

Just wanna say how much I hate this graph.

...because it illustrates a sad truth about the legal profession, or because it shows old (and thus overly optimistic) data?

I actually love that graph for there are some data points at 200.

[romothesavior]

Just wanna say how much I hate this graph.

...because it illustrates a sad truth about the legal profession, or because it shows old (and thus overly optimistic) data?

All of the above, and also because even pre-ITE it is ridiculously skewed. The 140-160 range has never, ever dominated law like that graph seems to indicate.

[09042014]

Just wanna say how much I hate this graph.

...because it illustrates a sad truth about the legal profession, or because it shows old (and thus overly optimistic) data?

That graph wouldn't be so sad if people were graduating with little to no debt. 50K ain't bad. But with 150K in debt it is.

T13 or free.

[09042014]

Just wanna say how much I hate this graph.

...because it illustrates a sad truth about the legal profession, or because it shows old (and thus overly optimistic) data?

All of the above, and also because even pre-ITE it is ridiculously skewed. The 140-160 range has never, ever dominated law like that graph seems to indicate.

It was probably a decent representation of t1 grads in the old economy.