ABA actually warns against law school Forum

[Aqualibrium]

I'm a 1L at a t-25 and I'm seriously considering cutting my losses now and doing something else.

Grades?

Currently unknown except for booking one midterm (that counted for half of the semester grade). If I'm not top 10%-20% at the end of the year, I'll leave.

That is more than a little ridiculous...

[bk1]

Going to CCN with a small/no scholarship is not reasonable? Please...

CCN maybe. After that, when you are looking at a 50% chance (MVPND or so) or more (everywhere else) of ending up with a 65k job and 200k worth of debt, it is looking less and less reasonable. I considered adding CCN to HYS, but I'd say that CCN is reasonable yet still risky. Below that, it isn't the soundest financial decision in the bunch.

And for me it really isn't about making a lot of money, I would just like to pay down debt in a reasonable timeframe.

[TheBigMediocre]

I'm a 1L at a t-25 and I'm seriously considering cutting my losses now and doing something else.

Grades?

Currently unknown except for booking one midterm (that counted for half of the semester grade). If I'm not top 10%-20% at the end of the year, I'll leave.

That is more than a little ridiculous...

It really isn't.

[bk1]

Currently unknown except for booking one midterm (that counted for half of the semester grade). If I'm not top 10%-20% at the end of the year, I'll leave.

That is more than a little ridiculous...

It's actually really really reasonable and something I have considered once I start school.

[ClayDavis]

I'm a 1L at a t-25 and I'm seriously considering cutting my losses now and doing something else.

Grades?

Currently unknown except for booking one midterm (that counted for half of the semester grade). If I'm not top 10%-20% at the end of the year, I'll leave.

That is more than a little ridiculous...

Not even remotely.

[Ragged]

I wouldn't pay sticker for anything but YHS, personally.

I generally agree with this sentiment. It pretty much takes a full tuition (or close to it) scholarship anywhere else to be a reasonable financial decision.

Going to CCN with a small/no scholarship is not reasonable? Please...

Well, look at the statistics. Maybe half of their students got NLJ 250 jobs while doing OCI in a better hiring market. Look in the Employment forum, where you'll find a ton of disillusioned CCN students who don't have jobs through OCI.

I don't know where they'll end up, but it is doubtful that many of them will be able to handle $200K in loans. At that point, they're just praying that IBR holds up, or they are absolutely fucked.

Are Harvard prospects that much better though? Do most of the 550 people there get jobs, or does Harvard have a better LARP?

[johnnyutah]

After that, when you are looking at a 50% chance (MVPND or so) or more (everywhere else) of ending up with a 65k job and 200k worth of debt, it is looking less and less reasonable.

You're being optimistic. I'm a 3L above median at MVPND, and I'd be thrilled with a 65k legal job after graduation. Lotta my classmates are the same, too.

[D. H2Oman]

This was way too long in coming. The UK's Law Society published a warning of its own volition on this topic years ago. The ABA only did this after years of pressure and the embarrassment of new law schools opening while most young lawyers remain unemployed.

The ABA's purpose is not and should not be to artificially inflate the value of lawyers.

[Ragged]

Going to CCN with a small/no scholarship is not reasonable? Please...

CCN maybe. After that, when you are looking at a 50% chance (MVPND or so) or more (everywhere else) of ending up with a 65k job and 200k worth of debt, it is looking less and less reasonable. I considered adding CCN to HYS, but I'd say that CCN is reasonable yet still risky. Below that, it isn't the soundest financial decision in the bunch.

And for me it really isn't about making a lot of money, I would just like to pay down debt in a reasonable timeframe.

I would be wary of going to CCN at sticker too, but I wouldn't call the decision unreasonable though. It seems like a better half of them are still able to find something.

[bk1]

After that, when you are looking at a 50% chance (MVPND or so) or more (everywhere else) of ending up with a 65k job and 200k worth of debt, it is looking less and less reasonable.

You're being optimistic. I'm a 3L above median at MVPND, and I'd be thrilled with a 65k legal job after graduation. Lotta my classmates are the same, too.

I erred on the side of optimism just to show that even when being optimistic it doesn't seem like a great idea.

[glitter178]

After that, when you are looking at a 50% chance (MVPND or so) or more (everywhere else) of ending up with a 65k job and 200k worth of debt, it is looking less and less reasonable.

You're being optimistic. I'm a 3L above median at MVPND, and I'd be thrilled with a 65k legal job after graduation. Lotta my classmates are the same, too.

I erred on the side of optimism just to show that even when being optimistic it doesn't seem like a great idea.

so why are we all still going or planning on going? i'm getting more freaked out by the day.

[bk1]

Can't help myself...

[bk1]

so why are we all still going or planning on going? i'm getting more freaked out by the day.

Because I genuinely want to be a lawyer and understand I am taking a large risk.

[Aqualibrium]

Currently unknown except for booking one midterm (that counted for half of the semester grade). If I'm not top 10%-20% at the end of the year, I'll leave.

That is more than a little ridiculous...

It's actually really really reasonable and something I have considered once I start school.

Not on it's face...


Look, I know the situation with jobs. I know it isn't all roses out there, but if you're telling me that you'll drop out if you're "only" top 25-33% at a t25, I have to think that you're not the type of person that can succeed in the firm environment anyway. That isn't a knock, it's obvious that most people don't fit that model, hence the churn and burn nature of legal employment at that level. I mean there is this obvious idea that people feel you're "safe," meaning you can just go to OCI and not be a wet blanket and come away with a firm offer, if you're in the top 10-20% at those schools. There is also obviously this idea that outside of that safe range, OCI gets sketchy, and your success is based on how lucky you are and how much you hustle.

I can totally understand someone saying "to avoid six figures in debt, I'll drop out if I'm at median or below." However, "I'll drop out if I'm not absolutely safe, and have to do any hustling" just rings of someone who isn't' cut out to make it in private practice anyway.

Then again, I suppose that means it's wise of you to just drop out...

edit: I also may not be in a position to really appreciate what it is to be facing that kind of debt though. I chose to attend a t30 because I was gonna come away without having to take out any loans as a result of scholarships and stipends, and I negotiated away any requirements to keep the scholarship. I coulda been last in the class, and I wouldn't have dropped out.

[johnnyutah]

so why are we all still going or planning on going? i'm getting more freaked out by the day.

I went to law school so I'd have at least a chance of making at least 45-65k a year while doing work that engages my mind to at least some degree, with the potential to grow into higher pay and better work as the years go by. Without law school I couldn't find any way to do that other than joining the army (which I considered but rejected).

Since I went to law school, I've discovered that lawyering is fun as shit (if you're doing it right), and now I just want to practice.

[bk1]

Not on it's face...


Look, I know the situation with jobs. I know it isn't all roses out there, but if you're telling me that you'll drop out if you're "only" top 25-33% at a t25, I have to think that you're not the type of person that can succeed in the firm environment anyway. That isn't a knock, it's obvious that most people don't fit that model, hence the churn and burn nature of legal employment at that level. I mean there is this obvious idea that people feel you're "safe," meaning you can just go to OCI and not be a wet blanket and come away with a firm offer, if you're in the top 10-20% at those schools. There is also obviously this idea that outside of that safe range, OCI gets sketchy, and your success is based on how lucky you are and how much you hustle.

I can totally understand someone saying "to avoid six figures in debt, I'll drop out if I'm at median or below." However, "I'll drop out if I'm not absolutely safe, and have to do any hustling" just rings of someone who isn't' cut out to make it in private practice anyway.

Then again, I suppose that means it's wise of you to just drop out...

edit: I also may not be in a position to really appreciate what it is to be facing that kind of debt though. I chose to attend a t30 because I was gonna come away without having to take out any loans as a result of scholarships and stipends, and I negotiated away any requirements to keep the scholarship. I coulda been last in the class, and I wouldn't have dropped out.

It's not about landing a job or "being safe." It's that once you're out of that range, if you're paying sticker you are going to be in 6 figures of debt for a job that doesn't pay well enough to unload that burden very quickly. It's different for you because you have little to no loans compared to someone who is taking on a lot of debt. Of course dropping out when you are on a full ride is a bad idea, but for those paying sticker it may not be so bad.

[09042014]

If someone really wants to any type of lawyer they should go for tuition free on a scholarship. If you can't get a full ride somewhere, don't go.

With a fullride you'll have hopefully less than 60K in debt. Then a 40K a year salary is fine.

If you want to do big law, then you really should only go T18, maybe T13.

Paying for a TTT, or paying more than small tuition at a T1 is a stupid bet.

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

[johnnyutah]

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.

[09042014]

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.

That accounts for what 1% of TTT students?

[TheBigMediocre]

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.

That accounts for what 1% of TTT students?

BUT THE OTHERS HAVE A LOVE OF THE LAW!

[johnnyutah]

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.

That accounts for what 1% of TTT students?

A lot more than that, I bet. Obviously this is a speculative estimate at best on my part, but I'd venture that at least 50% of the folks at my hometown law school have attorneys in the family somewhere.

[paratactical]

Meh, get a paralegal certificate

Don't. Most law firms do not require it for employment. It's a scam.

[09042014]

I'm a 1L at a T13 with a BSEE and I'm scared shitless about getting a job. What the fuck do people going to a T1 do? You gotta get top 10-15% to get a shot at a crappy big law firm. Fuck that shit. One bad grade can sink you?

If you have family or social connections, that can more than outweigh grades/school rank in many (most?) markets. A lot of kids in regional schools have family members who are partners at a firm somewhere. It can be a safe bet for those folks, even ITE.

That accounts for what 1% of TTT students?

A lot more than that, I bet. Obviously this is a speculative estimate at best on my part, but I'd venture that at least 50% of the folks at my hometown law school have attorneys in the family somewhere.

That's a lot different from having a family member than can get you a decent job.

[TheBigMediocre]

That's a lot different from having a family member than can get you a decent job.

"Hello? Uncle Frank? It's BigMediocre, remember me? I know you haven't seen me since that family reunion where I was shitting my diapers... and you have a struggling DUI shitlaw practice in flyover country, but I was wondering if I could come work for you?"

[glitter178]

That's a lot different from having a family member than can get you a decent job.

"Hello? Uncle Frank? It's BigMediocre, remember me? I know you haven't seen me since that family reunion where I was shitting my diapers... and you have a struggling DUI shitlaw practice in flyover country, but I was wondering if I could come work for you?"

lol