ABA actually warns against law school Forum
- mrmangs
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
I don't think you want to be a real estate agent right now.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
mrmangs wrote:I don't think you want to be a real estate agent right now.
Whaaaaa? There are plenty of clients to pick through for the next 5 years!!!
Kidding, kidding.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Those firms are just the small end of big law.mistergoft wrote:While the "midlaw is a myth" mantra is mostly true in primary markets, in secondary markets this simply is not true. The majority of firms that interview at UF can be classified as "midlaw" (i.e. Carlton Fields, Bilzin Sumburg, Gray Robinson, Rogers Towers [although they did not interview this year, but normally do], Gunster, Smith Hulsey Busey, and Phelps Dunbar to name a few). I am sure this is true of many other secondary markets as well. While I am not saying this guarantees anything (said firms probably accounted for about 7-8 people being employed at my school), they do exist.Desert Fox wrote:Midlaw is mostly myth.
Even the economy recovers if you aren't going to a T18 school you probably won't make enough money to pay your loans back.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
There aren't that many people who have huge federal loans. We are mostly talking about Med Students and related health specialists, lawyers, MBA, and some things like that.Nightrunner wrote:Honestly, I also hope I'm wrong. That's another risk factor (one most people don't bother to calculate): how long do you believe the federal government will be willing and able to commit to a large-scale IBR program? I hope it will be for a long time. It very well could be a long time. But I'm not so sold on the idea that I'm going to bank six digits on it, personally.observationalist wrote: As someone who is currently enrolled in IBR, I really hope you're wrong... my monthly payments will start out at $0 because my debt/income ratio is so high, and adjusting for slight salary increases means I will likely only have to pay back a fraction of my LS debt over the next 10 years. After that the outstanding balance on my federal direct loan should be forgiven through the public interest program of IBR, at which point I will have 10 years of hopefully rewarding work experience to take with me into the next 30-40 years of debt-free, hopefully rewarding work. Or so one hopes.
If you get into a position that is eligible for the ten-year forgiveness plan, that's probably a safer bet...but I'm just conjecturing.
Undergrads limit out at like 30K.
The ten year IBR is a lot more safe. That limits it even further and it's hard to argue against.
The 25 year IBR is a lot more risky. First off their is a tax bomb. You'll have to pay income tax on everything they write off. You'll be paying 15% of your discretionary income for 25 years then you get a 90K tax bill at age 50. It's a little bullshit.
- allah6969
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?
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- vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Will many legal jobs in the near future be grabbed up by tier-1 students? You bet.allah6969 wrote:Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?
Does this mean tier-1 students are going to be safe? Hell no. There's not enough jobs for all of them, and those who are lacking in {good grades/interview skills/work experience/whatever else} still run the risk of getting left out in the cold. There are folks now who've even done well at T14 and can't find work.
Yes, it'll more likely be students from better schools that get the jobs, but that does not mean that going to a better school means you'll necessarily get one.
- allah6969
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.vanwinkle wrote:Will many legal jobs in the near future be grabbed up by tier-1 students? You bet.allah6969 wrote:Don't you think this article pertains more or less to those attending sub-tier 1 universities? I mean, there are still legal jobs and someone has to fill them. It's probably going to be students from better schools and not the T3 and T4 schools. Right?
Does this mean tier-1 students are going to be safe? Hell no. There's not enough jobs for all of them, and those who are lacking in {good grades/interview skills/work experience/whatever else} still run the risk of getting left out in the cold. There are folks now who've even done well at T14 and can't find work.
Yes, it'll more likely be students from better schools that get the jobs, but that does not mean that going to a better school means you'll necessarily get one.
- vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
And yet it persists so much...Nightrunner wrote:This is an incredibly inaccurate perception of the bimodal hiring market.allah6969 wrote: Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.
- paratactical
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
It's also terrible advice. "Don't worry, you'll probably get a job!" It's better to worry and work for it.vanwinkle wrote:And yet it persists so much...Nightrunner wrote:This is an incredibly inaccurate perception of the bimodal hiring market.allah6969 wrote: Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.
- vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Agreed, and my general perception is that the people who end up finding jobs are the people who worry and work for it. (Not all of them do, but most who don't, don't.) Telling people not to worry is just telling them to make themselves unemployable.paratactical wrote:It's also terrible advice. "Don't worry, you'll probably get a job!" It's better to worry and work for it.
- pokerlaw
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Fear is a great motivator.
- johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
QF is not a law student looking for a job.allah6969 wrote: Yea I understand that nothing is guaranteed, but I think that for the most part people shouldn't worry if they are going to a reputable school that is ranked well and are willing to do the work. Some of them may not land jobs, but I think most will get something, even if it only starts them at 70k a year.
- emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Please, always worry about getting a job. I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market. IMO, an employer who would hire a T-14 grad with none of the above qualities over a TTT grad with superlative skills (who may be willing to word for a little less) is an idiot, but I guess the legal market operates in a manner that is very different from the market for most other types of jobs. Maybe a Harvard grad can get away with the lack of "soft skills," needed to find a job, who knows.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
While speaking at American University about Supreme Court clerks, "By and large," Scalia said, "I'm going to be picking from the law schools that, basically, are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest, and they may not teach very well, but you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. If they come in the best and the brightest, they're probably going to leave the best and the brightest, OK?"emhellmer wrote:Please, always worry about getting a job. I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market. IMO, an employer who would hire a T-14 grad with none of the above qualities over a TTT grad with superlative skills (who may be willing to word for a little less) is an idiot, but I guess the legal market operates in a manner that is very different from the market for most other types of jobs. Maybe a Harvard grad can get away with the lack of "soft skills," needed to find a job, who knows.
Jeff Sutton, Ohio's former state solicitor and now a judge with the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. "I wouldn't have hired Jeff Sutton," Justice Scalia said. "For God's sake, he went to Ohio State! And he's one of the very best law clerks I ever had."
This is the attitude of the legal community. Prestige, prestige, prestige.
- 98234872348
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Discharge of indebtedness isn't income to the extent that someone is insolvent... Therefore:Desert Fox wrote:There aren't that many people who have huge federal loans. We are mostly talking about Med Students and related health specialists, lawyers, MBA, and some things like that.Nightrunner wrote:Honestly, I also hope I'm wrong. That's another risk factor (one most people don't bother to calculate): how long do you believe the federal government will be willing and able to commit to a large-scale IBR program? I hope it will be for a long time. It very well could be a long time. But I'm not so sold on the idea that I'm going to bank six digits on it, personally.observationalist wrote: As someone who is currently enrolled in IBR, I really hope you're wrong... my monthly payments will start out at $0 because my debt/income ratio is so high, and adjusting for slight salary increases means I will likely only have to pay back a fraction of my LS debt over the next 10 years. After that the outstanding balance on my federal direct loan should be forgiven through the public interest program of IBR, at which point I will have 10 years of hopefully rewarding work experience to take with me into the next 30-40 years of debt-free, hopefully rewarding work. Or so one hopes.
If you get into a position that is eligible for the ten-year forgiveness plan, that's probably a safer bet...but I'm just conjecturing.
Undergrads limit out at like 30K.
The ten year IBR is a lot more safe. That limits it even further and it's hard to argue against.
The 25 year IBR is a lot more risky. First off their is a tax bomb. You'll have to pay income tax on everything they write off. You'll be paying 15% of your discretionary income for 25 years then you get a 90K tax bill at age 50. It's a little bullshit.
1. Make baller money till age 50
2. Somehow become insolvent in the tax year in question
3. ??????
4. PROFIT
- johnnyutah
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.
- emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck."johnnyutah wrote:Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.emhellmer wrote:Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck."johnnyutah wrote:Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.
- vanwinkle
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jeffersonr6_philly wrote:You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.emhellmer wrote:Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck."johnnyutah wrote:Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.emhellmer wrote:I guess a prestigious law degree can go a long way, but I still find it VERY hard to believe that it can compensate for poor interviewing skills, lack of real experience working with people, an attitude of entitlement, lack of hustle, and a lack of all of the other qualities that go into finding a good job in ANY market.
In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.
- emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
+1r6_philly wrote: You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
When I was racing, I learned that what you believe in plays a bigger part in the dynamics of things than most people would admit. People showing up thinking they will lose always lose. If you believe you need both, then you will need both. It doesn't mean the opposite is always true, but if you set limitations for yourself, then those will become realities.vanwinkle wrote: "I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson
In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.
- emhellmer
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
[/quote]Even people with those qualities may struggle in this market.[/quote]
Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." [/quote]
You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.[/quote]
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson
In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.[/quote]
And let's not underestimate the importance of having a good attitude. A common phrase tossed around in management training is "you can train skills, but you can't train attitude." I find it VERY hard to believe that all legal employers are ignorant to the importance of these factors (outside of the most elite of all elite circles, like the supreme court, etc.). If they are, no wonder everyone hates lawyers!
Of course they will. There is also the importance of a quality known as "luck." [/quote]
You can counter act luck by persistently trying again and again. If you keep trying, you will eventually run into luck.[/quote]
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." -Thomas Jefferson
In this legal market a prestigious degree doesn't make up for all of those other things. You need both.[/quote]
And let's not underestimate the importance of having a good attitude. A common phrase tossed around in management training is "you can train skills, but you can't train attitude." I find it VERY hard to believe that all legal employers are ignorant to the importance of these factors (outside of the most elite of all elite circles, like the supreme court, etc.). If they are, no wonder everyone hates lawyers!
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Not to argue against your point - but how do those Cooley/Widener grads end up partners? (I came across a few bios in Philly)Desert Fox wrote:You only get one shot at OCI. Resume drops and mass mailing can work, but Big Law is a set up horrifically. You basically get one shot.
Last edited by r6_philly on Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- paratactical
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Re: ABA actually warns against law school
Are you guys about to try to sell us copies of The Secret?
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
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