T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings

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kazu
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby kazu » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:15 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Graded LRW sucks, but if you're picking schools on this, you're objectively retarded.

Well, we have to occupy ourselves with something during this going-on-4-months wait.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:20 pm

kazu wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:Graded LRW sucks, but if you're picking schools on this, you're objectively retarded.

Well, we have to occupy ourselves with something during this going-on-4-months wait.



I'm here for you

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:43 pm

mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.


Mangs -

Just because you think you are going to awesome at something does not guarantee that is how it will go...go to an ungraded one and appreciate the warnings that were given.

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D-hops
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby D-hops » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:51 pm

Just another reason I should have picked Michigan over Northwestern. Dammit.

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mrmangs
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:55 pm

B.Web wrote:
mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.


Mangs -

Just because you think you are going to awesome at something does not guarantee that is how it will go...go to an ungraded one and appreciate the warnings that were given.


Haha, I'm not banking on being awesome. I was simply pointing out that graded LRW could be a boon for those with lackluster overall GPAs (which itself is hardly awesome). I do see some of the merits behind the complaints against graded LRWs, but in the end I don't think they have nearly enough force to determine which LS I should go to (although certainly it's a factor to consider).

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby TigerBeer » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:46 pm

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Last edited by TigerBeer on Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A&O
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby A&O » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:41 pm

If you really want to gun in legal writing, which just sounds ridiculous, the best book is probably Garner's book on legal writing. At least every associate should own one.

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thecilent
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby thecilent » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:43 pm

A&O wrote:If you really want to gun in legal writing, which just sounds ridiculous, the best book is probably Garner's book on legal writing. At least every associate should own one.

Would this help for regular exams at all or no?

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby A&O » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:54 pm

thecilent wrote:
A&O wrote:If you really want to gun in legal writing, which just sounds ridiculous, the best book is probably Garner's book on legal writing. At least every associate should own one.

Would this help for regular exams at all or no?


Most definitely not.

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:52 am

I think mrmangs is right. The thrust of the point is that, in general, any policies that affect the entire class don't change the individual workload or chance of success. At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study. If legal writing is graded, they'll spend one quarter of their time on legal writing and one quarter on their other three classes. If legal writing is not graded, they'll spend one third of their time on each of their doctrinal classes. (Well, obviously they'll spend some time on legal writing, but you get the point.) You will not have a lesser workload if legal writing is not graded; you'll just have to work more on your other classes to meet the curve.

There's a bunch of counterarguments that can be made, which I'm finding really annoying to type up (kinda feels like legal writing itself), but I think the thrust of the argument above is true. I'd rather have an ungraded legal writing than a graded legal writing, but it doesn't make much of a difference and definitely shouldn't be a major factor in deciding between schools. You'll find people irrationally obsessed with similar concepts in law school: they want review sessions, they want to know what the exam will look like, they want more practice tests, they talk about which classes are "easy" and which ones are "hard." It's all crap: if everybody's getting the same stuff, it's very unlikely you're gaining any advantage.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:41 pm

Bronte wrote:I think mrmangs is right. The thrust of the point is that, in general, any policies that affect the entire class don't change the individual workload or chance of success. At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study. If legal writing is graded, they'll spend one quarter of their time on legal writing and one quarter on their other three classes. If legal writing is not graded, they'll spend one third of their time on each of their doctrinal classes. (Well, obviously they'll spend some time on legal writing, but you get the point.) You will not have a lesser workload if legal writing is not graded; you'll just have to work more on your other classes to meet the curve.

There's a bunch of counterarguments that can be made, which I'm finding really annoying to type up (kinda feels like legal writing itself), but I think the thrust of the argument above is true. I'd rather have an ungraded legal writing than a graded legal writing, but it doesn't make much of a difference and definitely shouldn't be a major factor in deciding between schools. You'll find people irrationally obsessed with similar concepts in law school: they want review sessions, they want to know what the exam will look like, they want more practice tests, they talk about which classes are "easy" and which ones are "hard." It's all crap: if everybody's getting the same stuff, it's very unlikely you're gaining any advantage.


lulwut?

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study.

lulwut?


How'd I know one of you'd highlight that? It doesn't matter to the argument. I just didn't want to waste space writing this instead: There's an amount of time people spend studying; for some people it's a very little, for the majority of people it's a lot, and for a certain group it's near constant. Regardless, for most people it's the maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest. I believe this is the case because most people consider 1L grades critical to their career and are thus doing everything they can to get good grades.

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thecilent
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby thecilent » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:22 pm

A&O wrote:
thecilent wrote:
A&O wrote:If you really want to gun in legal writing, which just sounds ridiculous, the best book is probably Garner's book on legal writing. At least every associate should own one.

Would this help for regular exams at all or no?


Most definitely not.

Gotya thanks

09042014
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:22 pm

Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study.

lulwut?


How'd I know one of you'd highlight that? It doesn't matter to the argument. I just didn't want to waste space writing this instead: There's an amount of time people spend studying; for some people it's a very little, for the majority of people it's a lot, and for a certain group it's near constant. Regardless, for most people it's the maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest. I believe this is the case because most people consider 1L grades critical to their career and are thus doing everything they can to get good grades.


It's the crux of your argument and I think it's bullshit. Especially at the time LRW memos and briefs are due. At least at my school they were due several weeks before finals, and this semester they are do before spring break.

People aren't studying that hard at that time.

Also I think your argument relies on an implied assumption that LRW requires the same skills as any class. I don't think it does. I think writing skills are a separate skill. Someone with poor writing skills will take a GPA hit at schools that have graded writing.

However I bet graded LRW makes for better writers all said and done. So I'm not too butthurt about it.

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thecilent
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby thecilent » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:23 pm

Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study.

lulwut?


How'd I know one of you'd highlight that? It doesn't matter to the argument. I just didn't want to waste space writing this instead: There's an amount of time people spend studying; for some people it's a very little, for the majority of people it's a lot, and for a certain group it's near constant. Regardless, for most people it's the maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest. I believe this is the case because most people consider 1L grades critical to their career and are thus doing everything they can to get good grades.

maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest =/= using nearly every waking hour

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:26 pm

thecilent wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study.

lulwut?


How'd I know one of you'd highlight that? It doesn't matter to the argument. I just didn't want to waste space writing this instead: There's an amount of time people spend studying; for some people it's a very little, for the majority of people it's a lot, and for a certain group it's near constant. Regardless, for most people it's the maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest. I believe this is the case because most people consider 1L grades critical to their career and are thus doing everything they can to get good grades.

maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest =/= using nearly every waking hour


Are there schools that this happens at?

HowdyYall
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby HowdyYall » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:29 pm

Anybody know about UT?

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
It's the crux of your argument and I think it's bullshit. Especially at the time LRW memos and briefs are due. At least at my school they were due several weeks before finals, and this semester they are do before spring break.

People aren't studying that hard at that time.

Also I think your argument relies on an implied assumption that LRW requires the same skills as any class. I don't think it does. I think writing skills are a separate skill. Someone with poor writing skills will take a GPA hit at schools that have graded writing.

However I bet graded LRW makes for better writers all said and done. So I'm not too butthurt about it.


It's not the crux of my argument. The crux of my argument is that each person spends a fixed amount of time studying, which is near the maximum they're willing and able to invest.

And yes as I said there are counterarguments: (1) The perceived stress is higher, whether or not the workload is higher, decreasing the QOL. (2) They might require different skillsets. (Of course, as others have mentioned, if you're the type who has the other skillset, you'd rather legal writing were graded.) (3) People don't spend a fixed amount of time studying, and aren't robots who perfectly divide up their time. If legal writing is graded, they'll just spend more time on their memos than students at other schools do but won't spend any less time on doctrinal.

I think these points, taken together with my main point earlier, show that it's better to have a nongraded legal writing, but it's not a particularly big deal. I don't believe one should use it as a controlling factor in picking schools.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:34 pm

Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
It's the crux of your argument and I think it's bullshit. Especially at the time LRW memos and briefs are due. At least at my school they were due several weeks before finals, and this semester they are do before spring break.

People aren't studying that hard at that time.

Also I think your argument relies on an implied assumption that LRW requires the same skills as any class. I don't think it does. I think writing skills are a separate skill. Someone with poor writing skills will take a GPA hit at schools that have graded writing.

However I bet graded LRW makes for better writers all said and done. So I'm not too butthurt about it.


It's not the crux of my argument. The crux of my argument is that each person spends a fixed amount of time studying, which is near the maximum they're willing and able to invest.

And yes as I said there are counterarguments: (1) The perceived stress is higher, whether or not the workload is higher, decreasing the QOL. (2) They might require different skillsets. (Of course, as others have mentioned, if you're the type who has the other skillset, you'd rather legal writing were graded.) (3) People don't spend a fixed amount of time studying, and aren't robots who perfectly divide up their time. If legal writing is graded, they'll just spend more time on their memos than students at other schools do but won't spend any less time on doctrinal.

I think these points, taken together with my main point earlier, show that it's better to have a nongraded legal writing, but it's not a particularly big deal. I don't believe one should use it as a controlling factor in picking schools.


I think your counterarguments are far stronger than your regular arguments.

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mrmangs
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:At top schools, students use nearly every waking hour to study.

lulwut?


How'd I know one of you'd highlight that? It doesn't matter to the argument. I just didn't want to waste space writing this instead: There's an amount of time people spend studying; for some people it's a very little, for the majority of people it's a lot, and for a certain group it's near constant. Regardless, for most people it's the maximum amount of time they're willing and able to invest. I believe this is the case because most people consider 1L grades critical to their career and are thus doing everything they can to get good grades.


It's the crux of your argument and I think it's bullshit.


It's not the crux of the argument. The crux of the argument is that for each student, there is some value, x, which is the time he/she will spend studying, and that x will remain constant relative to each particular student whether or not LRW is graded.

I think this argument has some force, although I can see that it is way too broad and general of a claim to be borne out entirely. I'm sure there are law school students, for example, who are inconsistent with how much they study, and may very well not devote any more time to other classes if their LRW was ungraded as opposed to how much they would if it was graded. Since I'm a 0L and don't know the behavior of law school students aside from self-reporting on this website, I can't know how far the claim goes. But I would think that a lot of law school students would be gunning and would wisely invest the extra time they'd get from an ungraded LRW (keep in mind that I am not at all saying they would spend every waking moment studying).

All of that said, as I mentioned in an earlier post, time isn't fungible. Even if students study more for other classes in lieu of studying for LRW, that does not necessarily translate into better grades in those classes. In the end, I think graded LRW has both advantages and disadvantages, but, all other things being equal, I'd prefer not to have it graded. I do think, however, that people ITT are giving the status of LRW an inordinate amount of attention vis a vis the law school decision-making process.

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I think your counterarguments are far stronger than your regular arguments.


Okay, 0Ls, another nugget of TLS wisdom for you: Schools with graded legal writing classes are significantly tougher than schools without it. The grading structure for legal writing should be a controlling factor in deciding between schools. Good luck!

(Please note: One dissenting poster did note that he went to a T14 with a nongraded legal writing course, and it was a living hell. Most people were maxing out their study time.)

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:47 pm

Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think your counterarguments are far stronger than your regular arguments.


Okay, 0Ls, another nugget of TLS wisdom for you: Schools with graded legal writing classes are significantly tougher than schools without it. The grading structure for legal writing should be a controlling factor in deciding between schools. Good luck!

(Please note: One dissenting poster did note that he went to a T14 with a nongraded legal writing course, and it was a living hell. Most people were maxing out their study time.)


Why so series?

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:52 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why so series?


Does that mean I win? But seriously, can you not get on board with the notion that graded LW matters but not much? Do you really think that's it's just a lot tougher to be a 1L at NU than at other T14s?

09042014
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:00 pm

Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Why so series?


Does that mean I win? But seriously, can you not get on board with the notion that graded LW matters but not much? Do you really think that's it's just a lot tougher to be a 1L at NU than at other T14s?


Yea your last comment was good.

Yea I bet it's not a huge difference. It will lower my GPA, but it will probably raise someone else's. Also graded LRW is due so early that it doesn't really effect finals studying.

It's a pain but I wouldn't go to Gtown over NU because of it or anything like that.

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Bronte
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Why so series?


Does that mean I win? But seriously, can you not get on board with the notion that graded LW matters but not much? Do you really think that's it's just a lot tougher to be a 1L at NU than at other T14s?


Yea your last comment was good.

Yea I bet it's not a huge difference. It will lower my GPA, but it will probably raise someone else's. Also graded LRW is due so early that it doesn't really effect finals studying.

It's a pain but I wouldn't go to Gtown over NU because of it or anything like that.


Lol, well definitely not that! Yeah during the semester I remember thinking, "Goddamn I feel bad for those saps with graded LWs," but I think it's safe to say that it should be low on the list of deciding factors.




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