T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:28 am

IAFG wrote:right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


I can totally see why that would happen, and why upperclassmen are saying that it does. LRW is really a different skill set than doing well on a law school exam. You could end up being good at doing well on a 4 hour law exam but not be particularly skilled at LRW.

As far as the "flip side" argument, you don't want to bet your employability on "flip side" chances.

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:33 am

BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


I can totally see why that would happen, and why upperclassmen are saying that it does. LRW is really a different skill set than doing well on a law school exam. You could end up being good at doing well on a 4 hour law exam but not be particularly skilled at LRW.

As far as the "flip side" argument, you don't want to bet your employability on "flip side" chances.

that would make sense, people who don't handle time crunch well have a better shot at doing well at LRW. though i guess i would think people who do well under pressure would do even better with more time. who knows. never seen any hard numbers for LRW v. doctrinal.

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mrmangs
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:36 am

BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


I can totally see why that would happen, and why upperclassmen are saying that it does. LRW is really a different skill set than doing well on a law school exam. You could end up being good at doing well on a 4 hour law exam but not be particularly skilled at LRW.

As far as the "flip side" argument, you don't want to bet your employability on "flip side" chances.


I understand that, but I guess my point is, if you're below the median (or maybe even at it, depending on the school), what else do you have to lose? At least, insofar as one is gunning for BigLaw? Unless it really fucks over the below median people beyond what their relatively poor grades would anyway (I assume if one is destined for a TTT legal job or unemployment, doing poorly in LRW is not going to cement that even further... but I come from a position of ignorance). And since prior to law school and actually getting your grades, you don't know where you'll fall, graded LRW is just as much of a crapshoot as LS grades generally. You can only bet something you already have (and as a 0L, BigLaw is far from certain). I can definitely see why someone with a good to great GPA would be concerned, however.

The skill set point doesn't seem to go far enough. It would explain why LRW grades would be random, or have no correlation to normal LS grades, but if it's really an inverse scenario...

09042014
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:38 am

IAFG wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


I can totally see why that would happen, and why upperclassmen are saying that it does. LRW is really a different skill set than doing well on a law school exam. You could end up being good at doing well on a 4 hour law exam but not be particularly skilled at LRW.

As far as the "flip side" argument, you don't want to bet your employability on "flip side" chances.

that would make sense, people who don't handle time crunch well have a better shot at doing well at LRW. though i guess i would think people who do well under pressure would do even better with more time. who knows. never seen any hard numbers for LRW v. doctrinal.


It's a different skill set from what I can tell. I'm sure timing has something to do with it, but it seems like LRW is more about technique than analysis. Who knows though I'm doing LWR wrong.

09042014
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:40 am

I really doubt it's an inverse relationship.

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thecilent
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby thecilent » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:16 am

mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


I can totally see why that would happen, and why upperclassmen are saying that it does. LRW is really a different skill set than doing well on a law school exam. You could end up being good at doing well on a 4 hour law exam but not be particularly skilled at LRW.

As far as the "flip side" argument, you don't want to bet your employability on "flip side" chances.


I understand that, but I guess my point is, if you're below the median (or maybe even at it, depending on the school), what else do you have to lose? At least, insofar as one is gunning for BigLaw? Unless it really fucks over the below median people beyond what their relatively poor grades would anyway (I assume if one is destined for a TTT legal job or unemployment, doing poorly in LRW is not going to cement that even further... but I come from a position of ignorance). And since prior to law school and actually getting your grades, you don't know where you'll fall, graded LRW is just as much of a crapshoot as LS grades generally. You can only bet something you already have (and as a 0L, BigLaw is far from certain). I can definitely see why someone with a good to great GPA would be concerned, however.

The skill set point doesn't seem to go far enough. It would explain why LRW grades would be random, or have no correlation to normal LS grades, but if it's really an inverse scenario...

What are you talking bout?

The idea of the LRW being ungraded sounds like it could be a big advantage.

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mrmangs
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:19 am

thecilent wrote:The idea of the LRW being ungraded sounds like it could be a big advantage.


Not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand why exactly. Could you explain? Some people have already made some points that I get, but I don't think they are overwhelmingly strong.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:20 am

mrmangs wrote:
thecilent wrote:The idea of the LRW being ungraded sounds like it could be a big advantage.


Not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand why exactly. Could you explain? Some people have already made some points that I get, but I don't think they are overwhelmingly strong.


It's a big time sink for usually fewer units than a regular class.

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thecilent
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby thecilent » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:24 am

mrmangs wrote:
thecilent wrote:The idea of the LRW being ungraded sounds like it could be a big advantage.


Not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand why exactly. Could you explain? Some people have already made some points that I get, but I don't think they are overwhelmingly strong.

Other kids prob won't realize as much that you only need to put a minimum of work into it. Try to learn and do well, but don't worry about it like the other classes at the end. That and among other reasons

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Dany
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Dany » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:09 am

Damnit.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:10 am

eskimo wrote:Damnit.


Enjoy Chicago. :P

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Dany
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Dany » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:24 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
eskimo wrote:Damnit.


Enjoy Chicago. :P

Eh, no one understands their grades anyway.

/denial

rundoxierun
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:47 am

Its really weird that people are now saying that this should be a major factor. I remember this topic coming up last cycle and a pretty large amount of people said it shouldnt be a major factor.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:57 am

tkgrrett wrote:Its really weird that people are now saying that this should be a major factor. I remember this topic coming up last cycle and a pretty large amount of people said it shouldnt be a major factor.


Graded LWR is TTT but I wouldn't go to Michigan over UChicago for it. Though I might take UMich over Duke because of it.

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:57 am

tkgrrett wrote:Its really weird that people are now saying that this should be a major factor. I remember this topic coming up last cycle and a pretty large amount of people said it shouldnt be a major factor.

LRW made me hate my life. i hated it so much. it was the dread in the pit of my stomach.

but next semester will be better. i will like my professor more and it will take up less of my time.

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SullaFelix
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby SullaFelix » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:09 am

Knock wrote:Yale- ?
Harvard- Normal HP/P/LP/F
Stanford- Normal H/P
Columbia- Ungraded
Chicago- Graded
NYU- Ungraded
Berkeley- Normal HH/H/P
Michigan- Ungraded
Virginia- Ungraded (P/F)
Penn- Ungraded
Duke- Graded
Northwestern- Graded (uncurved)
Cornell- Graded
Georgetown- Graded

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... t-yls.aspx

The approach to legal writing instruction at YLS is unique. Unlike many other schools, you won't take an introductory legal writing course at YLS - writing is taught in the context of your required first-term classes. The small group, the format of one of your four required first-term courses, serves as the main venue for writing instruction. Small group professors and Coker Fellows, 2L and 3L assistants, provide the primary instruction in legal writing. Rob Harrison, one YLS's legal writing instructors, teaches first-term students the ins and outs of writing legal briefs and memoranda.

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Shaggier1
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Shaggier1 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:50 am

Berkeley- Normal HH/H/P


Original post is incorrect w/r/t Berkeley. LRW is graded as complete/non-complete (pass fail, for all intents and purposes, but they don't use "pass" so as to avoid confusion with the HH/H/P grading system)

WOA - the 2nd semester version of LRW - is now graded along the HH/H/P scale, for the first time.

r6_philly
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby r6_philly » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:2)The writing style is hard to get and is unlike anything you've ever done.


Could you elaborate? I am really interested in this. Is there some way somewhere online where I can see some examples?

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patentThis
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby patentThis » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:28 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:2)The writing style is hard to get and is unlike anything you've ever done.


Could you elaborate? I am really interested in this. Is there some way somewhere online where I can see some examples?


This. Also are there any publications worth reading as 0Ls for prep/

dudders
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby dudders » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:40 pm

patentThis wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:2)The writing style is hard to get and is unlike anything you've ever done.


Could you elaborate? I am really interested in this. Is there some way somewhere online where I can see some examples?


This. Also are there any publications worth reading as 0Ls for prep/


Not unless your professor wrote a day-by-day guide of what their rambling, idiosyncratic brain will want at different points during the semester.

LRW is a mismash of conflicting advice, and it's absolutely terrible if you have any extensive or professional writing experience. It feels like bad writing. It's the kind of class where your professor suggests an edit, then downgrades you for taking their advice.

I wish LRW at my school had been ungraded.

r6_philly
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby r6_philly » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:07 pm

dudders wrote:Not unless your professor wrote a day-by-day guide of what their rambling, idiosyncratic brain will want at different points during the semester.

LRW is a mismash of conflicting advice, and it's absolutely terrible if you have any extensive or professional writing experience. It feels like bad writing. It's the kind of class where your professor suggests an edit, then downgrades you for taking their advice.

I wish LRW at my school had been ungraded.


Could someone just provide a little example or something?

The most extensive writing I have done is of technical nature - documenting processes, writing clauses, addenda and exhibits in contracts, stuff like that. The closesest and the most extensive "real" writing experience I have is writing my PS.

So I am just curious.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:20 pm

Shaggier1 wrote:
Berkeley- Normal HH/H/P


Original post is incorrect w/r/t Berkeley. LRW is graded as complete/non-complete (pass fail, for all intents and purposes, but they don't use "pass" so as to avoid confusion with the HH/H/P grading system)

WOA - the 2nd semester version of LRW - is now graded along the HH/H/P scale, for the first time.


Fixed. Thanks Shaggier.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:46 am

Still looking to develop this more and get more details, please help me out, thanks!

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billyez
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby billyez » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:44 am

dudders wrote:LRW is a mismash of conflicting advice, and it's absolutely terrible if you have any extensive or professional writing experience. It feels like bad writing. It's the kind of class where your professor suggests an edit, then downgrades you for taking their advice.


Oh thank goodness. I'm not alone. I came in thinking it would be the simplest thing to understand given my background but the writing style strikes me as vapid and dry. Halfway through the semester and I still don't feel I've got a firm grip on a writing style - haven't had that kind of problem in a while. I should note that my Prof. wasn't like what you suggest in the final sentence though.

To 0L's who are worrying about this...I wouldn't. What you need to put on the paper depends, as it does in your other classes, on what your specific Prof. wants. I could hand you a copy of The Lawyers Craft and everyone else here could tell about every other book they were assinged to look at to help them gather the right writing style...but it's not going to be as helpful as you think. Besides, I don't know of any place that you could look at for examples of memos and such.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:50 am

Graded LRW sucks, but if you're picking schools on this, you're objectively retarded.




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