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(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

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Poll ended at Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:28 pm

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9
32%
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19
68%
 
Total votes: 28

profizzle
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Postby profizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:28 pm

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Last edited by profizzle on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby MrKappus » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:31 pm

Good news: you'll be the only incoming 1L who thinks he can "grind" his way to the top 1/3, so you should be good to go. As long as you "grind," study efficiently, and put in sufficient time, you can pretty much count on being in the top third. Thought experiments are fun! And this poll was USEFUL!

Idiot.

profizzle
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby profizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:33 pm

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Last edited by profizzle on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby MrKappus » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:36 pm

Not mad, just wrong forum. This is TLS. Crystal-fuckin-balls-that-tell-your-LS-future-based-on-stupid-assumptions.com is a completely different website.

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tallboone
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby tallboone » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:38 pm

Here's how you can "stealth grind" your way to the top:
http://www.grindr.com

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thecilent
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby thecilent » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:39 pm

MrKappus wrote:Not mad, just wrong forum. This is TLS. Crystal-fuckin-balls-that-tell-your-LS-future-based-on-stupid-assumptions.com is a completely different website.

:shock: :lol:

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rayiner
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby rayiner » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:43 pm

Lots of people work very hard and end up below median. The idea that you can work your ass off and be top of the class is based upon a couple of assumptions that you'll quickly realize are untenable.

1) That you can actually do all of those things you mention. Everyone things they'll read all the E&E's over the summer, get started on outlines day 1, outwork everyone else. Pretty much nobody can actually follow through. You'll start reading an E&E and realize it makes no sense without the course material, or will glaze through it and retain nothing. You'll have outlining you did from Sept and October that you look at in late November and realize they are utter crap because you had no idea what to outline. You think you'll put in 12x7 weeks, but you'll spend half of that on Facebook, gchat, etc.

2) That you think you can outwork your classmates. Law school is full of grinders. The medians at most of the T14 are 3.75-3.85 now. These people have as much stamina as you do and everyone knows about ITE and will work themselves threadbare when it counts.

3) That working hard necessarily gets you good grades. I think any person, all else being equal, would get better grades (relative to himself) if he works harder. I don't think that can guarantee you any particular placement relative to your classmates. Doing well in law school exams isn't just a function of hard work and LSAT score. I'd say that more important than either of them is figuring out what is expected of you. Figuring out how professors grade papers so you can figure out what to write, figuring out the 90% of the information that you get that needs to be filtered out. Law school is a highly stylized game and rules that are pretty simple, but you are constantly barraged with distractors. Until you actually go through it and get your grades back you don't really know that whatever you're doing is right or wrong.

profizzle
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:11 am

Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby profizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:43 pm

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Last edited by profizzle on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tsispilos
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby Tsispilos » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:45 pm

rayiner wrote:Lots of people work very hard and end up below median. The idea that you can work your ass off and be top of the class is based upon a couple of assumptions that you'll quickly realize are untenable.

1) That you can actually do all of those things you mention. Everyone things they'll read all the E&E's over the summer, get started on outlines day 1, outwork everyone else. Pretty much nobody can actually follow through. You'll start reading an E&E and realize it makes no sense without the course material, or will glaze through it and retain nothing. You'll have outlining you did from Sept and October that you look at in late November and realize they are utter crap because you had no idea what to outline. You think you'll put in 12x7 weeks, but you'll spend half of that on Facebook, gchat, etc.

2) That you think you can outwork your classmates. Law school is full of grinders. The medians at most of the T14 are 3.75-3.85 now. These people have as much stamina as you do and everyone knows about ITE and will work themselves threadbare when it counts.

3) That working hard necessarily gets you good grades. I think any person, all else being equal, would get better grades (relative to himself) if he works harder. I don't think that can guarantee you any particular placement relative to your classmates. Doing well in law school exams isn't just a function of hard work and LSAT score. I'd say that more important than either of them is figuring out what is expected of you. Figuring out how professors grade papers so you can figure out what to write, figuring out the 90% of the information that you get that needs to be filtered out. Law school is a highly stylized game and rules that are pretty simple, but you are constantly barraged with distractors. Until you actually go through it and get your grades back you don't really know that whatever you're doing is right or wrong.


This is a more eloquent and concise version of what I was going to say.

profizzle
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby profizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:47 pm

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Last edited by profizzle on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:54 pm

I think generally the TCR is def 'no' because it seems to me that a lot can go wrong on exams even for someone who has worked really hard. Also, at MVP its pretty much guaranteed everyone else will be working really hard- 'grinding' apparently, to use your terminology- and they will also typically have similar level of ability as one another.

The exception perhaps is if said person goes into MVP on full merit scholly due to having numbers much higher than average, in which case I think it is reasonable for that person to think they have a fairly good chance of ending up high in the class if they work hard and nothing goes majorly wrong with exams.

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rayiner
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby rayiner » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:57 pm

profizzle wrote:
rayiner wrote:Lots of people work very hard and end up below median. The idea that you can work your ass off and be top of the class is based upon a couple of assumptions that you'll quickly realize are untenable.

1) That you can actually do all of those things you mention. Everyone things they'll read all the E&E's over the summer, get started on outlines day 1, outwork everyone else. Pretty much nobody can actually follow through. You'll start reading an E&E and realize it makes no sense without the course material, or will glaze through it and retain nothing. You'll have outlining you did from Sept and October that you look at in late November and realize they are utter crap because you had no idea what to outline. You think you'll put in 12x7 weeks, but you'll spend half of that on Facebook, gchat, etc.

2) That you think you can outwork your classmates. Law school is full of grinders. The medians at most of the T14 are 3.75-3.85 now. These people have as much stamina as you do and everyone knows about ITE and will work themselves threadbare when it counts.

3) That working hard necessarily gets you good grades. I think any person, all else being equal, would get better grades (relative to himself) if he works harder. I don't think that can guarantee you any particular placement relative to your classmates. Doing well in law school exams isn't just a function of hard work and LSAT score. I'd say that more important than either of them is figuring out what is expected of you. Figuring out how professors grade papers so you can figure out what to write, figuring out the 90% of the information that you get that needs to be filtered out. Law school is a highly stylized game and rules that are pretty simple, but you are constantly barraged with distractors. Until you actually go through it and get your grades back you don't really know that whatever you're doing is right or wrong.


This was very helpful, and u don't sound mad. Ty, bro.


No problem. One additional point. Don't take this to mean that grades are "random". People's grades are pretty well correlated from class to class (I've seen this myself and heard it from professors who saw lots of transcripts for clerkship apps). Grades are really a function of how well you can grok the stylized little bit of "the law" that you learn in a given subject, and you can look at an exam and figure out where the facts on the fact pattern "plug in" to the law in your outline. The people who do well aren't necessarily brilliant (though I think being quicker thinkers helps), and aren't necessarily the ones who spent the most time poring over their outlines, but rather the people who can isolate that stylized legal framework the best then plug facts into it on the exam the most quickly. The people who "get" the general process tend to do consistently well, and if they have outlier exams it is often because the curve was very tight (which is really the only time the grades become somewhat random) or because they didn't get the law distilled properly for that particular class.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: T/F: Possible to *reliably* grind your way to top1/3 at MVP

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:02 pm

rayiner's post is well put and TCR.

IMO, I think you can work hard and grind your way to the top 25% or so at lower ranked law schools, but at schools in the t14, almost everyone is really hardcore and almost everyone works really hard (at least during 1L). I took a 1L course last fall at my current school and those 1Ls in there were fucking intense. But to put things into perspective, pretty much everyone that gets admitted to a t14 as a 1L pretty much was a gunner/nerd in undergrad... these are the people who did the extra credit assigments and pulled almost all As in all their classes. They are used to working really hard to get good grades, and nothing changes in law school for them, except getting the good grades (because of the curve).

Also, top 1/3 isn't any kind of guarantee at biglaw anyways. Just because a 1/3 of the class gets biglaw, it doesn't correlate that the top 1/3 gets biglaw. You could be at slightly below the median and get biglaw through OCI, while someone at top 1/3 does not (for a lot of firms after you meet their GPA cutoff, it all just comes down to personality "fit," which is decided based on a short 20 minute screening interview where you get asked a lot of really broad/dumb questions such as what your hobbies are and what your favorite class during your first year was). The only way to somewhat guarantee yourself a spot is top 10% or so because at least some of the v10-15 firms only care about grades and nothing else (and some of the v10 firm recruiters will even openly admit to this if you ask them what they are looking for). Top 10% at a t14 is in no way something you can "reliably grind your way to."




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