G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

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ScottRiqui
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G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScottRiqui » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:05 pm

If you're considering using (or are currently using) the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill to pay for law school, you might want to know that the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill Improvement plan just passed the Senate:

(http://military-education.military.com/2010/12/post-911-veterans-education-assistance-improvement-act-of-2010/)

One of the biggest changes is in how much the Bill will pay starting in August of 2011. Previously, the Bill would pay a per-credit-hour rate equal to the highest undergrad rate of any public undergrad school in the state where you'd be attending, regardless of whether you attend a public or private university. For a 90-hour degree in states like Texas or New York, that could be as much as $90k-$139k.

With the new changes, the P-9/11 G.I. Bill will pay for *all* tuition & fees at any public university, but will only pay up to $17,500/year at a private university. That means that the most you'll get the G.I. bill to pay towards a private school is $52,500 over the course of three years.

If you're thinking about going to a private school in a state that had a low tuition cap under the old plan (like California or Massachusetts), you could actually be better off with the new changes, but for other states like Arizona, Illinois, Michigan, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, the new changes will cost you money.

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hdivschool
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby hdivschool » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:34 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:If you're considering using (or are currently using) the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill to pay for law school, you might want to know that the Post-9/11 G.I. Bill Improvement plan just passed the Senate:

(http://military-education.military.com/2010/12/post-911-veterans-education-assistance-improvement-act-of-2010/)

One of the biggest changes is in how much the Bill will pay starting in August of 2011. Previously, the Bill would pay a per-credit-hour rate equal to the highest undergrad rate of any public undergrad school in the state where you'd be attending, regardless of whether you attend a public or private university. For a 90-hour degree in states like Texas or New York, that could be as much as $90k-$139k.

With the new changes, the P-9/11 G.I. Bill will pay for *all* tuition & fees at any public university, but will only pay up to $17,500/year at a private university. That means that the most you'll get the G.I. bill to pay towards a private school is $52,500 over the course of three years.

If you're thinking about going to a private school in a state that had a low tuition cap under the old plan (like California or Massachusetts), you could actually be better off with the new changes, but for other states like Arizona, Illinois, Michigan, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, the new changes will cost you money.


Awesome! Thanks for the heads up.

mala2
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby mala2 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:11 pm

but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.

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fatduck
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:12 pm

mala2 wrote:but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.


this is better if you are going to a public school *anywhere* as you will now get all tuition/fees paid, even if it's not the cheapest public school in the state

you will be worse off if you're going to a private school in a state with expensive public schools, but most people will be better off

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:17 pm

This doesn't apply to grad school (i.e., law school), does it? For instance, UVA Law tuition and fees are $47,500. Since this is a state school, is that all covered now?

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:18 pm

mala2 wrote:but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.


The use of Arizona was a bad example as the only private school I'm aware of is Phoenix School of Law which probably isn't attended by many here. However, Michigan is a great example. Before, the per hour rate was just about $1000. So, if you attended MSU Law, you'd get about $30,000 from the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Now, however, you'll get a max of $17,500.

Also of use to note, which OP did not mention, is the new "improved" GI Bill will pay ALL IN-STATE TUITION/FEES. So, unless you are an OOS student in a state that offers in-state for vets (CO, WA, CT come to mind, but I know there are more), you'll still be responsible for OOS tuition/fees.

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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby mala2 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:19 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:This doesn't apply to grad school (i.e., law school), does it? For instance, UVA Law tuition and fees are $47,500. Since this is a state school, is that all covered now?


that's what I'm confused about. When reading about it, it sounds like it might be better for public university grad students, in that it will now pay full tuition costs based on eligibility.

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fatduck
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:20 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:This doesn't apply to grad school (i.e., law school), does it? For instance, UVA Law tuition and fees are $47,500. Since this is a state school, is that all covered now?


Code: Select all

For Veterans and their transferees - simplifies the tuition and fee rates for those attending a public school and creates a national maximum for those enrolled in a private or foreign school
Pays all public school in-state tuition and fees;
Private and foreign school costs are capped at $17,500 annually;
The Yellow Ribbon Program still exists for out-of-state fees and costs above the cap.


doesn't seem to specify

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fatduck
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:21 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Also of use to note, which OP did not mention, is the new "improved" GI Bill will pay ALL IN-STATE TUITION/FEES. So, unless you are an OOS student in a state that offers in-state for vets (CO, WA, CT come to mind, but I know there are more), you'll still be responsible for OOS tuition/fees.


good catch

mala2
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby mala2 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:21 pm

I read something on military.com (I think) that did say it would cover grad school costs, trying to find.

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fatduck
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:22 pm

also interesting:

Code: Select all

Allows reimbursement of fees paid to take national exams used for admission to an institution of higher learning (e.g., SAT, ACT, GMAT, LSAT)

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:22 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:This doesn't apply to grad school (i.e., law school), does it? For instance, UVA Law tuition and fees are $47,500. Since this is a state school, is that all covered now?


All graduate programs are now covered, regardless of the cost. Again, however, it only pays IN-STATE tuition and fees. So, if in-state is $20k and OOS is $40k, the new program pays $20k and you are responsible for $20k. It DOES NOT require schools to waive OOS tuition and fees for vets.

mala2
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby mala2 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:23 pm

Effective August 1, 2011

The Post-9/11 GI Bill will now pay all public school in-state tuition and fees; this includes graduate training, etc.
For students attending private institutions of higher learning or foreign schools, the tuition and fee reimbursement is capped at the lesser of net out-of-pocket cost or $17,500 annually — however the Yellow Ribbon Program still exists
College fund payments will now be paid on a monthly basis instead of a lump-sum at the beginning of the term. Those training at ½ time or less are now eligible for college fund payments
Reimbursement is now available for multiple Licensing and Certification Tests
Reimbursement is now available for fees paid to take national examinations used for admission to an institution of higher learning (e.g. SAT, LSAT, ACT, GMAT, etc)
Vocational Rehabilitation participants may now elect the higher housing allowance offered by the Post-9/11 GI Bill if otherwise eligible for the Post-9/11 GI Bill
Break or interval pay is no longer payable under any VA education benefit program unless under an Executive Order of the President or due to an emergency situation such as a natural disaster or strike. Entitlement which previously would have been used for break pay will be available for use during a future enrollment.
This means that if your semester ends December 15 your housing allowance is paid for the first 15 days of December only. Your benefits will begin again when your new semester begins (e.g. January 15) and you will be paid for the remaining days of that month and term.
Students using other VA education programs are included in this change. Monthly benefits will be prorated in the same manner.
NOAA and PHS personnel are now eligible to transfer their entitlement to eligible dependents
Effective October 1, 2011

If you are training at greater than ½ time your housing allowance is now prorated according to the training time you are enrolled in, i.e. full housing allowance for you is $1000, you are attending ¾ time — your housing allowance would be $750 (¾ of $1000)
Housing allowance is now payable to students enrolled solely in distance learning [This Includes Online Education], the housing allowance is ½ the national average BAH for an E-5 with dependents (the rate would be $673.50 for 2011)
Non-college degree programs, on-the-job training, and flight training programs are now covered under the Post-9/11 GI Bill
The book stipend is now payable to active duty members

http://military-education.military.com/ ... l-changes/

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:25 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
mala2 wrote:but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.


The use of Arizona was a bad example as the only private school I'm aware of is Phoenix School of Law which probably isn't attended by many here. However, Michigan is a great example. Before, the per hour rate was just about $1000. So, if you attended MSU Law, you'd get about $30,000 from the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Now, however, you'll get a max of $17,500.

Also of use to note, which OP did not mention, is the new "improved" GI Bill will pay ALL IN-STATE TUITION/FEES. So, unless you are an OOS student in a state that offers in-state for vets (CO, WA, CT come to mind, but I know there are more), you'll still be responsible for OOS tuition/fees.


I didn't see anything limiting payments to in-state rates. The article says:

Simplifies the tuition payment rates by eliminating the state-by-state “undergraduate level” cap for tuition and fees. The VA will pay all actual tuition and fees for public (state) institutions for all levels of higher education. Effective Aug. 1, 2011. — Also applies to active duty servicemembers and their families, which goes into effect 60 days after enactment


This also implies that law school is covered, since it refers to "all levels" of higher education. No?
Last edited by FattyMcFatFat on Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:26 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
mala2 wrote:but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.


The use of Arizona was a bad example as the only private school I'm aware of is Phoenix School of Law which probably isn't attended by many here. However, Michigan is a great example. Before, the per hour rate was just about $1000. So, if you attended MSU Law, you'd get about $30,000 from the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Now, however, you'll get a max of $17,500.

Also of use to note, which OP did not mention, is the new "improved" GI Bill will pay ALL IN-STATE TUITION/FEES. So, unless you are an OOS student in a state that offers in-state for vets (CO, WA, CT come to mind, but I know there are more), you'll still be responsible for OOS tuition/fees.


I didn't say anything limiting payments to in-state rates. The article says:

Simplifies the tuition payment rates by eliminating the state-by-state “undergraduate level” cap for tuition and fees. The VA will pay all actual tuition and fees for public (state) institutions for all levels of higher education. Effective Aug. 1, 2011. — Also applies to active duty servicemembers and their families, which goes into effect 60 days after enactment


This also implies that law school is covered, since it refers to "all levels" of higher education. No?


The VA's website says: "Pays all public school in-state tuition and fees"

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:26 pm

mala2 wrote:Effective August 1, 2011

The Post-9/11 GI Bill will now pay all public school in-state tuition and fees; this includes graduate training, etc.
For students attending private institutions of higher learning or foreign schools, the tuition and fee reimbursement is capped at the lesser of net out-of-pocket cost or $17,500 annually — however the Yellow Ribbon Program still exists
College fund payments will now be paid on a monthly basis instead of a lump-sum at the beginning of the term. Those training at ½ time or less are now eligible for college fund payments
Reimbursement is now available for multiple Licensing and Certification Tests
Reimbursement is now available for fees paid to take national examinations used for admission to an institution of higher learning (e.g. SAT, LSAT, ACT, GMAT, etc)
Vocational Rehabilitation participants may now elect the higher housing allowance offered by the Post-9/11 GI Bill if otherwise eligible for the Post-9/11 GI Bill
Break or interval pay is no longer payable under any VA education benefit program unless under an Executive Order of the President or due to an emergency situation such as a natural disaster or strike. Entitlement which previously would have been used for break pay will be available for use during a future enrollment.
This means that if your semester ends December 15 your housing allowance is paid for the first 15 days of December only. Your benefits will begin again when your new semester begins (e.g. January 15) and you will be paid for the remaining days of that month and term.

Students using other VA education programs are included in this change. Monthly benefits will be prorated in the same manner.
NOAA and PHS personnel are now eligible to transfer their entitlement to eligible dependents
Effective October 1, 2011

If you are training at greater than ½ time your housing allowance is now prorated according to the training time you are enrolled in, i.e. full housing allowance for you is $1000, you are attending ¾ time — your housing allowance would be $750 (¾ of $1000)
Housing allowance is now payable to students enrolled solely in distance learning [This Includes Online Education], the housing allowance is ½ the national average BAH for an E-5 with dependents (the rate would be $673.50 for 2011)
Non-college degree programs, on-the-job training, and flight training programs are now covered under the Post-9/11 GI Bill
The book stipend is now payable to active duty members

http://military-education.military.com/ ... l-changes/


This is huge, too. Kinda sucks for budgeting purposes.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:27 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
mala2 wrote:but is this better if you're going to a public school in Arizona? I'm confused.


The use of Arizona was a bad example as the only private school I'm aware of is Phoenix School of Law which probably isn't attended by many here. However, Michigan is a great example. Before, the per hour rate was just about $1000. So, if you attended MSU Law, you'd get about $30,000 from the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Now, however, you'll get a max of $17,500.

Also of use to note, which OP did not mention, is the new "improved" GI Bill will pay ALL IN-STATE TUITION/FEES. So, unless you are an OOS student in a state that offers in-state for vets (CO, WA, CT come to mind, but I know there are more), you'll still be responsible for OOS tuition/fees.


I didn't see anything limiting payments to in-state rates.


I know you didn't... that's why I pointed it out.

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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:28 pm

I see. Well, looks like I'll be switching to VocRehab for law school, since it will cover everything regardless of location, and now has the actual BAH rates.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:34 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:I see. Well, looks like I'll be switching to VocRehab for law school, since it will cover everything regardless of location, and now has the actual BAH rates.


I've never understood how voc rehab works. It is my understanding the entire point of voc rehab is to train you to get a job if:
1) Your disability prevents you from securing employment in your previous area of expertise, or
2) You are not employable based on your current education/training level

How is it that voc rehab can be used for law school? It would seem to me that you already have a degree and not in need of additional training on the government's dime.

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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:39 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
FattyMcFatFat wrote:I see. Well, looks like I'll be switching to VocRehab for law school, since it will cover everything regardless of location, and now has the actual BAH rates.


I've never understood how voc rehab works. It is my understanding the entire point of voc rehab is to train you to get a job if:
1) Your disability prevents you from securing employment in your previous area of expertise, or
2) You are not employable based on your current education/training level

How is it that voc rehab can be used for law school? It would seem to me that you already have a degree and not in need of additional training on the government's dime.


I'm not positive why I was approved for law school, but I believe it depends on your initially stated goals. On the initial application I said I wanted to be a lawyer. They might also have been more lenient because I have the GI Bill available anyway, so it's not going to cost the government a materially different amount (this is speculation though).

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:47 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
FattyMcFatFat wrote:I see. Well, looks like I'll be switching to VocRehab for law school, since it will cover everything regardless of location, and now has the actual BAH rates.


I've never understood how voc rehab works. It is my understanding the entire point of voc rehab is to train you to get a job if:
1) Your disability prevents you from securing employment in your previous area of expertise, or
2) You are not employable based on your current education/training level

How is it that voc rehab can be used for law school? It would seem to me that you already have a degree and not in need of additional training on the government's dime.


I'm not positive why I was approved for law school, but I believe it depends on your initially stated goals. On the initial application I said I wanted to be a lawyer. They might also have been more lenient because I have the GI Bill available anyway, so it's not going to cost the government a materially different amount (this is speculation though).


Got it... I just hate the system... A friend of mine was discharged with a 20% disability rating and qualified for voc rehab. He had GI bill eligibility, too. VA told him he could only use his voc rehab for job training, but they wouldn't let him go to actual school with it. So, he opted to go to a police academy at a local community college, but they wouldn't let him do that, either, saying although it was an occupational program, because it was at a school, they wouldn't let him do it. And, of course, the 9/11 Bill wouldn't pay for it, either, since it wasn't an actual degree program.

I just hate how they pick and choose who gets what. Not your fault. Just venting.

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:55 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
FattyMcFatFat wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
FattyMcFatFat wrote:I see. Well, looks like I'll be switching to VocRehab for law school, since it will cover everything regardless of location, and now has the actual BAH rates.


I've never understood how voc rehab works. It is my understanding the entire point of voc rehab is to train you to get a job if:
1) Your disability prevents you from securing employment in your previous area of expertise, or
2) You are not employable based on your current education/training level

How is it that voc rehab can be used for law school? It would seem to me that you already have a degree and not in need of additional training on the government's dime.


I'm not positive why I was approved for law school, but I believe it depends on your initially stated goals. On the initial application I said I wanted to be a lawyer. They might also have been more lenient because I have the GI Bill available anyway, so it's not going to cost the government a materially different amount (this is speculation though).


Got it... I just hate the system... A friend of mine was discharged with a 20% disability rating and qualified for voc rehab. He had GI bill eligibility, too. VA told him he could only use his voc rehab for job training, but they wouldn't let him go to actual school with it. So, he opted to go to a police academy at a local community college, but they wouldn't let him do that, either, saying although it was an occupational program, because it was at a school, they wouldn't let him do it. And, of course, the 9/11 Bill wouldn't pay for it, either, since it wasn't an actual degree program.

I just hate how they pick and choose who gets what. Not your fault. Just venting.


I agree. The libertarian in me wants to use that evidence to alter the course of this thread, but I'll refrain. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there is a minimum 30% service-connected rating required for the bells and whistles. That might be why they gave him the run around.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:58 pm

I agree. The libertarian in me wants to use that evidence to alter the course of this thread, but I'll refrain. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there is a minimum 30% service-connected rating required for the bells and whistles. That might be why they gave him the run around.


Possibly... but, with the horrendous debt and all that good jazz, I can't believe the government is justifying using voc rehab to train a lawyer. (No offense intended) In your case, you'd get it regardless because of the GI Bill, but the idea that voc rehab is used for anything other than helping someone learn to wipe their ass again or helping them find gainful employment (see: T14 grads unable to land jobs) is a joke.

/rant

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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby DrackedaryMaster » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:02 pm

I'm glad for the new changes. As a FL resident about to attend a public school, I was still going to be on the hook for about half the tuition until the changes were passed. Now, if only the BAH rate for my school hadn't dropped $150 for my school before starting 1L, that would have been nice.

The big controversy was with students attending private schools that were going to lose out. Fordham comes to mind where they took into account the $30,000 approximate limit on in-state plus the $10,000 in VA/school yellow ribbon essentially covered all tutition. Now, it looks like a student will need to come up with a way to fund $12,500 due to the new private school cap. This might effect SMU & Baylor also where in-state tuition rates were high enough to cover their costs fully under the old change as well.

It looks like students at Harvard and Cornell wouldn be ok, since the Yellow Ribbon amounts for those schools were sufficient to cover all costs both under the old and new bills.

By the way, not to hijack the thread, but are there any Veterans here currently pulling duty in the Guard or Reserve, and if so, are you still planning on drilling during 1L or getting a deferment?
Last edited by DrackedaryMaster on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: G.I. Bill for Law School Just Got a Little "Interesting"

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:02 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
I agree. The libertarian in me wants to use that evidence to alter the course of this thread, but I'll refrain. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there is a minimum 30% service-connected rating required for the bells and whistles. That might be why they gave him the run around.


Possibly... but, with the horrendous debt and all that good jazz, I can't believe the government is justifying using voc rehab to train a lawyer. (No offense intended) In your case, you'd get it regardless because of the GI Bill, but the idea that voc rehab is used for anything other than helping someone learn to wipe their ass again or helping them find gainful employment (see: T14 grads unable to land jobs) is a joke.

/rant


Agreed.




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