Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

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Kswizzie
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Kswizzie » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:44 am

bigkahuna2020 wrote:Duke, Cornell<Vanderbilt

I would say BC/BU/Fordham/GWU is as low as I'd go, but Cardozo gives you a 20% or so chance, esp with the 75k max debt, isn't a terrible choice

Temple and American def bat above their weight


Why do you say that Vanderbilt is better then Duke, Cornell? Is it because it has traditionally been dominated by Cornell in biglaw placement and has only slightly outplace them once?

utlaw2007
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby utlaw2007 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:20 am

I wanted to say that you could add 15% to those percentages at all of the top 16 schools because that's how much of those classes have students that take appellate court clerkships, federal or state, over biglaw jobs. The appellate court clerkships are temporary, they last for about two years. Students who take them are eligible for big law since typically, they are harder to get then biglaw jobs upon graduation. I had forgotten about this. I had one friend who was top 25%. The other friend was top 10% actually. They both got gigs clerking for the Texas Suprememe Court.

utlaw2007
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby utlaw2007 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:30 am

@Llissjen. If you graduate bottom 3rd at UT Law, you might get a sniff here and there of BigLaw interviews during OCI, but you"ll basically have no chance at BigLaw. However, before the economy tanked, you would be automatic for getting some kind of smallaw job making 75k. But because of the economy, that's no longer the case. You have to go public interest or something like that.

utlaw2007
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby utlaw2007 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:01 am

The economy has wreaked havoc on law school hiring. I would say that if you don't go top 5, that you better go to a school that has as little competition as possible and has a good legal market (i.e. Texas). Never underestimate the regional bias that's always in play. If Texas were in New York or Chicago, it wouldn't fair nearly as well.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:35 pm

Kswizzie wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Duke, Cornell<Vanderbilt

I would say BC/BU/Fordham/GWU is as low as I'd go, but Cardozo gives you a 20% or so chance, esp with the 75k max debt, isn't a terrible choice

Temple and American def bat above their weight


Why do you say that Vanderbilt is better then Duke, Cornell? Is it because it has traditionally been dominated by Cornell in biglaw placement and has only slightly outplace them once?


Mostly cuz I hate Cornell and Duke's atmosphere to be honest. I got over wearing polo's and rugby shirts in high school. Plus Vandy does pretty well for itself. That being said, I think anything in that tier is a wash and tends to be how well you do in the school anyway, plus how well you interview

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:37 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:The "go to" survey was based upon 2009 grads...2009 grads did OCI in 2007 - aka the "boomtimes" - and summered in 2008, right before the economiclypse...

It is now 2010 (not for long). We have been in an atrocious biglaw hiring environment for a while, and the landscape has not improved significantly (although there has arguably been an uptick since last year, it's still horrendous out there)...not even CLOSE to the 2007-level golden years


You need to work on your logic there. Unless you think overall hiring for BigLaw classes will be smaller than 2009 in 2011-2014 (which I think is insane) your argument makes no sense

I would never go to Cardozo if I was BigLaw or bust, but there is a pretty decent chance.

StateSchoolSplitter
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby StateSchoolSplitter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:43 pm

Washington U - the end.

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Unemployed
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Unemployed » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:44 pm

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:The "go to" survey was based upon 2009 grads...2009 grads did OCI in 2007 - aka the "boomtimes" - and summered in 2008, right before the economiclypse...

It is now 2010 (not for long). We have been in an atrocious biglaw hiring environment for a while, and the landscape has not improved significantly (although there has arguably been an uptick since last year, it's still horrendous out there)...not even CLOSE to the 2007-level golden years


You need to work on your logic there. Unless you think overall hiring for BigLaw classes will be smaller than 2009 in 2011-2014 (which I think is insane) your argument makes no sense

I would never go to Cardozo if I was BigLaw or bust, but there is a pretty decent chance.


Oh my.

Image

rundoxierun
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby rundoxierun » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:50 pm

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Duke, Cornell<Vanderbilt

I would say BC/BU/Fordham/GWU is as low as I'd go, but Cardozo gives you a 20% or so chance, esp with the 75k max debt, isn't a terrible choice

Temple and American def bat above their weight


Why do you say that Vanderbilt is better then Duke, Cornell? Is it because it has traditionally been dominated by Cornell in biglaw placement and has only slightly outplace them once?


Mostly cuz I hate Cornell and Duke's atmosphere to be honest. I got over wearing polo's and rugby shirts in high school. Plus Vandy does pretty well for itself. That being said, I think anything in that tier is a wash and tends to be how well you do in the school anyway, plus how well you interview


My god man. If you have ever been to Vandy no way would ever make this statement. The atmosphere that you seem to be alluding to runs rampant at Vandy. Plenty of reasons to choose Vandy over Duke/Cornell(region of interest, family, student body, etc.) but this just isnt one of them.

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Grizz
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Grizz » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:12 pm

StateSchoolSplitter wrote:Washington U - the end.


Blatant T19 trolling

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Grizz
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Grizz » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:13 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:Mostly cuz I hate Cornell and Duke's atmosphere to be honest. I got over wearing polo's and rugby shirts in high school. Plus Vandy does pretty well for itself. That being said, I think anything in that tier is a wash and tends to be how well you do in the school anyway, plus how well you interview


My god man. If you have ever been to Vandy no way would ever make this statement. The atmosphere that you seem to be alluding to runs rampant at Vandy. Plenty of reasons to choose Vandy over Duke/Cornell(region of interest, family, student body, etc.) but this just isnt one of them.


+1

StateSchoolSplitter
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby StateSchoolSplitter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:14 pm

rad law wrote:
StateSchoolSplitter wrote:Washington U - the end.


Blatant T19 trolling


Thank you

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:10 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
My god man. If you have ever been to Vandy no way would ever make this statement. The atmosphere that you seem to be alluding to runs rampant at Vandy. Plenty of reasons to choose Vandy over Duke/Cornell(region of interest, family, student body, etc.) but this just isnt one of them.

Vandy
Duke
Cornell


Alright then

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Big Shrimpin » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:30 pm

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:The "go to" survey was based upon 2009 grads...2009 grads did OCI in 2007 - aka the "boomtimes" - and summered in 2008, right before the economiclypse...

It is now 2010 (not for long). We have been in an atrocious biglaw hiring environment for a while, and the landscape has not improved significantly (although there has arguably been an uptick since last year, it's still horrendous out there)...not even CLOSE to the 2007-level golden years


You need to work on your logic there. Unless you think overall hiring for BigLaw classes will be smaller than 2009 in 2011-2014 (which I think is insane) your argument makes no sense

I would never go to Cardozo if I was BigLaw or bust, but there is a pretty decent chance.


RC fail.

Pretty decent chance of what? lol

Did I assert, either explicitly or impliedly, that I think biglaw hiring in 2011-2014 will be worse than 2009? I'll give you a hint - no.

Did you even read what I wrote? What was the main point? I'll give you another hint - it's my position on blind reliance upon outdated/old data. Such reliance has an invidious consequence - it perpetuates half-truths about employment possibilities from law school. Schools, in turn, make outrageous claims about post-graduate employment statistics. Applicants, unfortunately, rely upon that information when applying to schools. Got it yet?

09042014
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:05 pm

Cornell got beat by Vandy in one year of NLJ data because New York firms no offered/ revoked huge portions of the class of 2009, while firms in other cities did not.

It's why Northwestern out placed Columbia, NYU and UChicago in NLJ250 for 2009. Because it places 50% of it's grads into Chicago big law.

But now NYC big law is the the hottest market. Be careful not to use data from when NYC was the worst to trash Cornell.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:20 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:The "go to" survey was based upon 2009 grads...2009 grads did OCI in 2007 - aka the "boomtimes" - and summered in 2008, right before the economiclypse...

It is now 2010 (not for long). We have been in an atrocious biglaw hiring environment for a while, and the landscape has not improved significantly (although there has arguably been an uptick since last year, it's still horrendous out there)...not even CLOSE to the 2007-level golden years


You need to work on your logic there. Unless you think overall hiring for BigLaw classes will be smaller than 2009 in 2011-2014 (which I think is insane) your argument makes no sense

I would never go to Cardozo if I was BigLaw or bust, but there is a pretty decent chance.


RC fail.

Pretty decent chance of what? lol

Did I assert, either explicitly or impliedly, that I think biglaw hiring in 2011-2014 will be worse than 2009? I'll give you a hint - no.

Did you even read what I wrote? What was the main point? I'll give you another hint - it's my position on blind reliance upon outdated/old data. Such reliance has an invidious consequence - it perpetuates half-truths about employment possibilities from law school. Schools, in turn, make outrageous claims about post-graduate employment statistics. Applicants, unfortunately, rely upon that information when applying to schools. Got it yet?


The NLJ250 hiring stats are based upon what the law firms themselves report, no? I'd say it is the best source out there, because it counts individual jobs, not extrapolated percentages, as far as I can tell

Knottsingham
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Knottsingham » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:26 am

Desert Fox wrote:Cornell got beat by Vandy in one year of NLJ data because New York firms no offered/ revoked huge portions of the class of 2009, while firms in other cities did not.

It's why Northwestern out placed Columbia, NYU and UChicago in NLJ250 for 2009. Because it places 50% of it's grads into Chicago big law.

But now NYC big law is the the hottest market. Be careful not to use data from when NYC was the worst to trash Cornell.


Yep. And this is why I'd answer with Cornell.

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swiftwings88
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby swiftwings88 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:34 am

Sorry to just jump in on this but I'd argue that you can work big law coming out of almost any t1 or t2 school. It all depends on your work ethic, people skills, and work you do during law school (non-academic). As a point of illustration, my brother went to law school at Marquette and was decent but not great academically and he works for a big law firm in Chicago. Grades help as does national prestige but I would say go to the school that gives you the most money and that you like the best.

Don't stress about it. If you work hard, and bust your butt doing legwork in law school I'm sure you'll have a great job after graduation.

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Ragged
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Ragged » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:59 am

swiftwings88 wrote:Sorry to just jump in on this but I'd argue that you can work big law coming out of almost any t1 or t2 school. It all depends on your work ethic, people skills, and work you do during law school (non-academic). As a point of illustration, my brother went to law school at Marquette and was decent but not great academically and he works for a big law firm in Chicago. Grades help as does national prestige but I would say go to the school that gives you the most money and that you like the best.

Don't stress about it. If you work hard, and bust your butt doing legwork in law school I'm sure you'll have a great job after graduation.


The problem with this is that I hear you can be doing everything right and still not get the grades you might think you deserve, because most of your classmates will also be doing everything in their power or just because of bad luck.

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lisjjen
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby lisjjen » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:05 am

Ragged wrote:
swiftwings88 wrote:Sorry to just jump in on this but I'd argue that you can work big law coming out of almost any t1 or t2 school. It all depends on your work ethic, people skills, and work you do during law school (non-academic). As a point of illustration, my brother went to law school at Marquette and was decent but not great academically and he works for a big law firm in Chicago. Grades help as does national prestige but I would say go to the school that gives you the most money and that you like the best.

Don't stress about it. If you work hard, and bust your butt doing legwork in law school I'm sure you'll have a great job after graduation.


The problem with this is that I hear you can be doing everything right and still not get the grades you might think you deserve, because most of your classmates will also be doing everything in their power or just because of bad luck.


The problem with all of the logic on TLS is - there is no golden ticket. The adcomm at Yale might let a shitty student in. Does that mean her life will be roses from thereon out? She might get biglaw right out of school simply because she went to a T3, but what are her chances at moving up if she is incompetent? Given a choice between a moron from HYS and a tigershark from University of North Dakota that obliterates every single godamn thing she touches, who is going to keep moving up?

Would Microsoft have been even more of a global hegemon if Bill Gates had have staid to get his diploma? Competency is competency is competency. At the end of the day, even if you get your 3 years in biglaw, if you can't bust your ass, what does law school +3yrs look like?

I understand the immediate context of the thread. Hell, I'm part of the game. But there are no magic buttons. Period.

I guess my end analysis is, go to the best school you get into that makes long term financial sense, but don't think that you'll have arrived once you do. Grades are hard to get as Ragged alludes to, but they're not the only indicator that matters. Every industry that matters recognize hard workers - even if they fail. Swiftsing hits on a good point when he says that the emphasis is on legwork. Now legwork + T14, that's a beautiful thing.

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swiftwings88
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby swiftwings88 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:36 pm

lisjjen wrote:
I guess my end analysis is, go to the best school you get into that makes long term financial sense, but don't think that you'll have arrived once you do. Grades are hard to get as Ragged alludes to, but they're not the only indicator that matters. Every industry that matters recognize hard workers - even if they fail. Swiftsing hits on a good point when he says that the emphasis is on legwork. Now legwork + T14, that's a beautiful thing.


+1

Use every advantage you can think of if you want Big law. Great legal market, grades, school ranking, contacts, internships, legal work during school. It all comes into play. Everything can help. just don't trap yourself into thinking that if you don't go to t-14 you're screwed. It totally helps in a big way, its just not the only thing that matters

SupraVln180
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby SupraVln180 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:43 pm

Obviously, you want to shoot as high as you can (preferably at least T14, maybe T6, for NYC BigLaw. However, lately I have been browsing through some BigLaw Firms websites and I was extremely suprised at how many people working at these firms, including partners went to schools like Brooklyn, Cardozo and St.John's. They did all graduate with honors though and it was a NY firm. Still, I was shocked.

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Grizz
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby Grizz » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:38 pm

SupraVln180 wrote:Obviously, you want to shoot as high as you can (preferably at least T14, maybe T6, for NYC BigLaw. However, lately I have been browsing through some BigLaw Firms websites and I was extremely suprised at how many people working at these firms, including partners went to schools like Brooklyn, Cardozo and St.John's. They did all graduate with honors though and it was a NY firm. Still, I was shocked.

Past hiring =/= present hiring

motiontodismiss
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby motiontodismiss » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:02 pm

Vanderbilt. (except Cornell and Gtown)

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2011L1
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Re: Lowest you would go if you wanted BigLaw

Postby 2011L1 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:07 pm

Ragged wrote:
dextermorgan wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:So, you are pretty much saying no lower than the t-14.

Some people have been saying that GC only send approx. 30% of their class into BigLaw. Any percentage below that is not worth it?

Postulating like this is pointless, but if you were dead set on BigLaw then 1-14 give you a shot worth taking. UT for Texas BigLaw is a possibility. Vandy places alright, but by no means is a guarantee. If you want a guarantee then don't go below Yale.


ftfy


I wouldn't go below T-14 + UT. Tired of giving the same answer to the same question.


So would you totally X out Fordham if you were a NY'er?




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