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tlslsnlsp
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby tlslsnlsp » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:05 pm

Veyron wrote:50% chance of Biglaw, 50% of debtpwnge for life. I'd say its worth sticker if you had a low UGPA but pwnd the LSAT. Also, Michigan is uniquely fucked, I think NU will probably replace them soon in the MVP tier.


why do you say this?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:24 pm

tlslsnlsp wrote:
Veyron wrote:50% chance of Biglaw, 50% of debtpwnge for life. I'd say its worth sticker if you had a low UGPA but pwnd the LSAT. Also, Michigan is uniquely fucked, I think NU will probably replace them soon in the MVP tier.


why do you say this?


He probably thinks that the LSAT has a high correlation to law school success-it doesn't. One thing that I've learned is that it's very important to be able to write well. This really isn't stressed enough on TLS. Going into law school, I'd be a lot more worried about having poor writing skills than not being able to juggle how many different color clowns can fit into a 5 seater bus.

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Dex
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby Dex » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:37 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
tlslsnlsp wrote:
Veyron wrote:50% chance of Biglaw, 50% of debtpwnge for life. I'd say its worth sticker if you had a low UGPA but pwnd the LSAT. Also, Michigan is uniquely fucked, I think NU will probably replace them soon in the MVP tier.


why do you say this?


He probably thinks that the LSAT has a high correlation to law school success-it doesn't. One thing that I've learned is that it's very important to be able to write well. This really isn't stressed enough on TLS. Going into law school, I'd be a lot more worried about having poor writing skills than not being able to juggle how many different color clowns can fit into a 5 seater bus.


Actually I think he's saying your scholarship chances with a low UGPA probably aren't that great, thus making sticker at the best school your LSAT can get you into a more reasonable choice.

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Veyron
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby Veyron » Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:50 am

Now I know what t-shirt must feel like. I'll give you the law school answer, you're both right. BTW, many of my finals had questions very siimilar to those on the lsat

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby tlslsnlsp » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:29 am

oh, i should have clarified; i meant why do you say michigan is on the down and will be replaced?



btw i suppose for the other point yall are saying you're better off being a dude who slacked in ug with a lot of innate ability (splitter) than someone who made up for their lack of innate ability with diligence (reverse splitter)?

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Veyron
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby Veyron » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:08 am

tlslsnlsp wrote:oh, i should have clarified; i meant why do you say michigan is on the down and will be replaced?



btw i suppose for the other point yall are saying you're better off being a dude who slacked in ug with a lot of innate ability (splitter) than someone who made up for their lack of innate ability with diligence (reverse splitter)?


Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby irishman86 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:27 am

Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.

Also, some people do slack in law school...and I think hard work does pay off. Intelligence plays somewhat of a role, but it's law school, not MIT engineering. You don't need to be a genius to understand law school. It's about putting in extra work doing supplements and extra problems. The order of the coif kids at my school also work insane hours, and I know a few of my friends put in literally <1 week's time on finals 1L year.
Last edited by irishman86 on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:30 am

irishman86 wrote:
Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.

1) define "recruits more"
2) DC considers UVA "local"

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby irishman86 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:32 am

IAFG wrote:
irishman86 wrote:
Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.

1) define "recruits more"
2) DC considers UVA "local"


1) More NY offices at OCI. 2) Then I guess Chicago is our home market? Chicago is a pretty terrible market ITE, but DC is extremely competitive, so it evens out.

Just wanted to reiterate, I think that if you didn't have a super low LSAT and lucked out getting into your law school due to soft factors, the amount/quality of work you put into school largely determines how well you do, at least with respect to top 1/3 or top 25%. Maybe order of the coif is determined more so by natural intelligence, but getting to top 1/3/25% is due largely to hard work.
Last edited by irishman86 on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:34 am

irishman86 wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) define "recruits more"
2) DC considers UVA "local"


1) More NY offices at OCI. 2) Then I guess Chicago is our home market? Chicago is a pretty terrible market ITE, but DC is extremely competitive, so it evens out.

i don't think chicago thinks you're local, and certainly don't get a spot in line in front of NU and UChi. your point about DC is valid. number of offices showing up is a shitty metric and you know it.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby irishman86 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:36 am

IAFG wrote:
irishman86 wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) define "recruits more"
2) DC considers UVA "local"


1) More NY offices at OCI. 2) Then I guess Chicago is our home market? Chicago is a pretty terrible market ITE, but DC is extremely competitive, so it evens out.

i don't think chicago thinks you're local, and certainly don't get a spot in line in front of NU and UChi. your point about DC is valid. number of offices showing up is a shitty metric and you know it.


I think Chicago puts us on an even par with NU, maybe below Chicago. But I think it considers us local...search for the news article about how Chicago firms are limiting recruiting to Chicago/Michigan/NU.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because Chicago biglaw is largely a myth...it's all about New York.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby irishman86 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:38 am

ITT 1Ls and 0Ls with no experience with OCI and biglaw talk shit.

And to answer this question, a 50-50 shot is risky, so I'm not sure if it is worth sticker. (It also largely depends on your costs of living.) But since the loans are owed to the federal government, not a private creditor, it persuades me to say that it is worth sticker. If you get boned with the job search, it's supposedly easy getting deferrals. Of course you will rack up interest and ruin your credit, but at some point the loans will be discharged (upon death). Unlike a private creditor providing a recourse loan, the government will probably not force you to hand over all personal assets if you can't pay it off. It probably also won't take you to court.

BruceWayne wrote: He probably thinks that the LSAT has a high correlation to law school success-it doesn't. One thing that I've learned is that it's very important to be able to write well. This really isn't stressed enough on TLS. Going into law school, I'd be a lot more worried about having poor writing skills than not being able to juggle how many different color clowns can fit into a 5 seater bus.


And this is credited. Writing skills are important for at least half your 1L classes.

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RVP11
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:26 pm

Veyron wrote:As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE.


Even if we accept as true that Michigan has no home market, UVA's location (and the fact that maybe 40% of the students are from the DC area) just encourages people outside the top third to bid DC when they really shouldn't. I can't see how that helps placement.

Basically any school that doesn't feed as many people to NYC as possible is going to have lower BigLaw placement than it otherwise could.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:28 pm

irishman86 wrote:ITT 1Ls and 0Ls with no experience with OCI and biglaw talk shit.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:32 pm

irishman86 wrote:
Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.

Also, some people do slack in law school...and I think hard work does pay off. Intelligence plays somewhat of a role, but it's law school, not MIT engineering. You don't need to be a genius to understand law school. It's about putting in extra work doing supplements and extra problems. The order of the coif kids at my school also work insane hours, and I know a few of my friends put in literally <1 week's time on finals 1L year.



Autoadmit and the TLS threads--the defacto source for law career placement info.

You're in contention for post of the year for the bolded.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:34 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You're in contention for post of the year for the bolded.


Not really. There's really nothing in his post that's wrong, or funny.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:35 pm

RVP11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You're in contention for post of the year for the bolded.


Not really. There's really nothing in his post that's wrong, or funny.



I meant post of the year because it's on point--ie good. People on here are so negative.......

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RVP11
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:40 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You're in contention for post of the year for the bolded.


Not really. There's really nothing in his post that's wrong, or funny.



I meant post of the year because it's on point--ie good. People on here are so negative.......


Okay, then thumbs up. I took my 1L vs. 2L battle too far there.

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Veyron
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby Veyron » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:51 pm

IAFG wrote:
irishman86 wrote:
Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.

1) define "recruits more"
2) DC considers UVA "local"


TITCR

TBF, yes some kids in my section do slack... the JD/MBA kids.

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rayiner
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby rayiner » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:58 pm

irishman86 wrote:
Veyron wrote: Yes, law school is much more about natural intelligence than ug. Virtually no one slacks. As far as Michigan, their lack of a home market is really fucking them over ITE. Meanwhile, van zandt dramatically increased placement by giving firms what they want for a change.


I don't know where the fuck you heard this, Mr. 1L, but New York firms recruit more out of Michigan than NU/V. (Plurality of M's firms come from NYC.) Also, if its lack of home market is fucking them over, then why doesn't the same apply to V? What a stupid argument.


Plurality of NU's firms are also NYC.

Re: Michigan's home market --- Chicago is not it. They don't send large numbers of people to Kirkland/Sidley/etc.

I don't have hard Michigan stats for ITE, but if I were making the law school gamble today I'd pick P or V over M. OCI in ITE is all about pumping grads into the few big firms that still have big class sizes. That's why CLS/NYU's placement is so great --- they place 15-20 grads in each of a number of V25 firms.

Pre-ITE, each of Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, etc, would each take a dozen NU grads just for their Chicago offices. Meanwhile, Michigan would send a few each to those firms, then a few each to a bunch of other firms. ITE, when only V25/V50s are hiring, that becomes a problem, because suddenly Kirkland comes in expecting to hire 3-5 Michigan grads as usual, and suddenly everyone is competing for those spots because the usual alternatives don't exist anymore.

Based on the data I have, Penn is doing closer to CLS than you'd expect precisely because of this effect. They don't have a ton of offices at OCI, but they've got all the big NYC firms covered, and each of those firms comes in every year expecting to take half a dozen Penn grads.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:07 pm

I see so many of these is "X" t14 worth sticker threads on TLS. I think the best thing you can do right now is just sit tight and see what happens with the economy by August, and if things are still terrible, then try to defer a year. Things got to pick up eventually, and when the gravy train is running these schools are clearly worth the money because mostly everyone does fairly well (even if you don't get biglaw during a boom period, you still find a great paying job-- those 50+ law firms that pay $80-120K /year in major markets are nothing to laugh at if you're a liberal arts major with no job prospects right now). Arguably even top 6 schools aren't worth the risk right now because you have something like a 50% chance of not getting biglaw... I think it was something like 70% of all OCI participants that found something out of OCI at NYU/CLS--meaning an even smaller percentage of the total class got biglaw SA offers, and if you figure 30% of that 70% get no-offered like SAs in the past, then it'll be less than 50% of those classes that have actual biglaw jobs at graduation. BUT, if things pick back up, then all these schools will most likely be worth the money.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:26 pm

rayiner wrote:I don't have hard Michigan stats for ITE, but if I were making the law school gamble today I'd pick P or V over M. OCI in ITE is all about pumping grads into the few big firms that still have big class sizes. That's why CLS/NYU's placement is so great --- they place 15-20 grads in each of a number of V25 firms.

Pre-ITE, each of Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, etc, would each take a dozen NU grads just for their Chicago offices. Meanwhile, Michigan would send a few each to those firms, then a few each to a bunch of other firms. ITE, when only V25/V50s are hiring, that becomes a problem, because suddenly Kirkland comes in expecting to hire 3-5 Michigan grads as usual, and suddenly everyone is competing for those spots because the usual alternatives don't exist anymore.

Based on the data I have, Penn is doing closer to CLS than you'd expect precisely because of this effect. They don't have a ton of offices at OCI, but they've got all the big NYC firms covered, and each of those firms comes in every year expecting to take half a dozen Penn grads.

We've discussed this argument extensively in another thread, Rayiner. I'm posting the link to the thread so everybody can read our discussion and then make a decision as to whether Penn is that much better than Michigan for NYC. For those of you who don't have the time to read the thread, Michigan's placement in NYC is significantly less because we place many, many more students into objectively "harder" markets than New York. If Michigan students wanted to place predominantly into NYC as Penn students do (or if UVA did the same, for that matter), our placement stats would be remarkably similar.

I suggest people do read the thread, however, because this silly "Penn >>>> Michigan for NYC" rhetoric on TLS is perpetuated by people who stick to these recycled arguments even in light of the obvious flaws. Please read for yourself: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138482

Also, I would suggest that the reality of hiring changes with smaller class sizes swings in the opposite way you're claiming - schools that placed almost exclusively into single markets may have suffered in their placement even more relative to schools that place in different markets. (See, e.g., Berkeley's SF placement - this is not to suggest that Berkeley is confined to SF, merely that it self-selects there). The idea that Michigan had our pre-ITE placement while placing 3-5 in each of these firms, but that we're still placing 3-5 into these firms, means that Michigan should suffer significantly less compared to a school that placed a dozen and is now down to 6-8 when class sizes are cut. I don't think what you're arguing follows as well as you think it does. The only factor that hurt Michigan's placement last year relative to our peers is our OCS's strong suggestions to avoid NYC as compared to other markets, which in retrospect was the opposite of what our students should have done.

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:37 pm

rad law wrote:
Cavalier wrote:Even if you have strong ties to a secondary market, that market may only have 25-50 SA positions, which will make it very competitive regardless of what school you attend.


This. My FL market has like 20 SAs max. And kids from T25 ish schools coming home as well as UF/FSU/UM people all want them. Extremely competitive.


Meaningless distinction.

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Grizz
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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby Grizz » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:22 am

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Cavalier wrote:Even if you have strong ties to a secondary market, that market may only have 25-50 SA positions, which will make it very competitive regardless of what school you attend.


This. My FL market has like 20 SAs max. And kids from T25 ish schools coming home as well as UF/FSU/UM people all want them. Extremely competitive.


Meaningless distinction.


RC fail bro

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Re: Is MVP worth sticker ITE? (for biglaw)

Postby gbpackerbacker » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:45 am

:|




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