H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What would you take? (Debt figures include undergrad)

Harvard w/ ~$160K debt($2,000 monthly payment)
62
86%
UC-Berkeley w/ ~$85K debt ($1,000 monthly payment)
2
3%
Michigan w/~70K debt(~$800 monthly payment)
8
11%
 
Total votes: 72

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BruceWayne
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:29 pm

It always amazes me how few people on here who get into HYS get the max grant, it really lets you know that there aren't many people on TLS with our type of financial background.

For the most part, I have the exact same background as you do. If you are serious about wanting to go into a government position one day you simply have no choice but to go to Harvard. The government is run by Harvard/Yale grads (for the most part). In addition, Harvard's Black Law Student Association is incredible. I'm not sure if you know this but Obama routinely taps into their alumni network when hiring people for posts. I can't find it now, but there was an article in a minority publication that explained how Harvard BLSA is almost like a Black version of an elite secret society--they really look out for one another. As a result, I think that for a Black applicant Harvard may be the ideal choice out of HYS. On top of that you will really want a federal clerkship if you are interested in doing something at DOJ after graduation.

I know that you said you are interested in biglaw for the immediate future, but you don't want to close any doors. And contrary to popular TLS lore CCN really aren't particularly close to Harvard in anything but NYC biglaw. This website is obsessed with NYC biglaw and consequently uses that to ascertain the relative strengths of the schools. Don't fall into this trap, your chances of securing a federal district clerkship out of Harvard are much higher than than they would be at any of CCN. Besides, even for biglaw you'll have an easier time at Harvard. The lack of a GPA grading system is a huge plus as well. Trust me, you do not want to be graded in law school on the 4.0 scale if you can avoid it. Coming out of Columbia or NYU with a 3.2 GPA (very possible) will substantially limit your government options as compared to the grades that Harvard hands out (they make it hard to determine your exact ranking--unlike the 4.0 scale).

To give you an idea of the background of some minority government big wigs, checkout these links.

http://www.justice.gov/civil/Tony%20West%20Bio.htm
--LinkRemoved--



Clearly Eric Holder went to Columbia and none of these schools will completely close any doors, but you will have a significantly harder time landing some of the jobs that these men did at Columbia as compared to Harvard. In sum, as you alluded, class rank can make or break you and you won't have to worry about it nearly as much from Harvard.


Also keep in mind that Harvard's LIPP will cover your 20K in undergraduate loans, should you choose the government route, and that LIPP will not phase out at under the higher salaries offered by the government as compared to other PI positions. Chicago and NYU will not cover any of your loans under the salaries offered by the DOJ.

rundoxierun
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:55 am

Bumping this now that we are deep in the cycle and I have most of the options narrowed down.

CanadianWolf
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:23 am

Harvard is probably your best option.

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ebeth
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby ebeth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:38 am

Since the question on your poll is "what would you take" my answer is I'd take Harvard. In your case, the difference between Harvard and a T10 full tuition scholarship would be $20K/year (right?). To me, Harvard is worth an extra $20K/year. Here are some reasons why. Of course, these reasons are informed by my own values and preferences.

1) Lack of GPA. This seems huge to me. Employers will be unable to easily distinguish between you and your classmates because most people will have a mixture of H's and P's. You thus won't feel as much pressure to outperform others in order to get a job.

2) Boost in government opportunities. For me at least, this is definitely an avenue I'd like to keep wide open.

3) I left ASW with the sense that I should choose Harvard because the resources/opportunities are unparalleled at other law schools (unless you get into Stanford, because that will start a different conversation).

I very much understand how scary taking out loans can be. One of my family members provides an example of how to manage this properly. She left grad school with $120K in loans less than two years ago and she's now halfway done paying them off because she manages her budget correctly. It's not so difficult to pay off loans if you live responsibly. Keep in mind that if you take biglaw at first, your salary will be way more than you are living on now. Surely you will be able to spare a good portion of it to make payments. And in case your salary is too low to make substantial payments, LIPP will help you out.

I hope at least some of that is helpful.

trudat15
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:57 pm

Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby trudat15 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:50 pm

Harvard's max grant is 28k total? Or per year. I thought I saw some 84k on LSN last cycle. You might be unselling your grant potential by 2/3.

Edit: Didnt see you were adding in your UG debt to your debt total. So nevermind. Though 160k still seems high with max grant and UG debt included.

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Moxie
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby Moxie » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:58 pm

trudat15 wrote:Harvard's max grant is 28k total? Or per year. I thought I saw some 84k on LSN last cycle. You might be unselling your grant potential by 2/3.


The 84k must be referring to the total of 3 yrs receiving 28k in grant.

Even if you don't get the max grant from Harvard (your OP seems to imply you're still waiting?), it's the right decision here.

FYI I made a very similar decision, and didn't even get the full need-based grant max. Still chose HLS, and it was an amazing decision.

legends159
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby legends159 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:01 pm

Go to HLS and save money while you are there. Try finding off campus housing that is cheaper, cook your own food and pack lunches and invest in a coffee maker (if you drink coffee). And buy your books used off amazon or half. You really don't need the entire COA they quote.

trudat15
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby trudat15 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:02 pm

Moxie wrote:
trudat15 wrote:Harvard's max grant is 28k total? Or per year. I thought I saw some 84k on LSN last cycle. You might be unselling your grant potential by 2/3.


The 84k must be referring to the total of 3 yrs receiving 28k in grant.

Even if you don't get the max grant from Harvard (your OP seems to imply you're still waiting?), it's the right decision here.

FYI I made a very similar decision, and didn't even get the full need-based grant max. Still chose HLS, and it was an amazing decision.


Yeah that's what I was asking, because 160k total debt in the pool seemed to me that OP was only taking into account 28k total, instead of 84k.

In any case - OP - go to Harvard.

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Moxie
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby Moxie » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:05 pm

trudat15 wrote:
Moxie wrote:
trudat15 wrote:Harvard's max grant is 28k total? Or per year. I thought I saw some 84k on LSN last cycle. You might be unselling your grant potential by 2/3.


The 84k must be referring to the total of 3 yrs receiving 28k in grant.

Even if you don't get the max grant from Harvard (your OP seems to imply you're still waiting?), it's the right decision here.

FYI I made a very similar decision, and didn't even get the full need-based grant max. Still chose HLS, and it was an amazing decision.


Yeah that's what I was asking, because 160k total debt in the pool seemed to me that OP was only taking into account 28k total, instead of 84k.

In any case - OP - go to Harvard.


Yea, but consider that HLS' COA is about $210,000 over three years, plus whatever UG debt he had (maybe 30-40k?) and you get 160k (210 + 30 - 84)

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BruceWayne
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:21 pm

ebeth wrote:Since the question on your poll is "what would you take" my answer is I'd take Harvard. In your case, the difference between Harvard and a T10 full tuition scholarship would be $20K/year (right?). To me, Harvard is worth an extra $20K/year. Here are some reasons why. Of course, these reasons are informed by my own values and preferences.

1) Lack of GPA. This seems huge to me. Employers will be unable to easily distinguish between you and your classmates because most people will have a mixture of H's and P's. You thus won't feel as much pressure to outperform others in order to get a job.

2) Boost in government opportunities. For me at least, this is definitely an avenue I'd like to keep wide open.

3) I left ASW with the sense that I should choose Harvard because the resources/opportunities are unparalleled at other law schools (unless you get into Stanford, because that will start a different conversation).

I very much understand how scary taking out loans can be. One of my family members provides an example of how to manage this properly. She left grad school with $120K in loans less than two years ago and she's now halfway done paying them off because she manages her budget correctly. It's not so difficult to pay off loans if you live responsibly. Keep in mind that if you take biglaw at first, your salary will be way more than you are living on now. Surely you will be able to spare a good portion of it to make payments. And in case your salary is too low to make substantial payments, LIPP will help you out.

I hope at least some of that is helpful.

trudat15
Posts: 900
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:57 pm

Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby trudat15 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:48 pm

Moxie wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
Moxie wrote:
trudat15 wrote:Harvard's max grant is 28k total? Or per year. I thought I saw some 84k on LSN last cycle. You might be unselling your grant potential by 2/3.


The 84k must be referring to the total of 3 yrs receiving 28k in grant.

Even if you don't get the max grant from Harvard (your OP seems to imply you're still waiting?), it's the right decision here.

FYI I made a very similar decision, and didn't even get the full need-based grant max. Still chose HLS, and it was an amazing decision.


Yeah that's what I was asking, because 160k total debt in the pool seemed to me that OP was only taking into account 28k total, instead of 84k.

In any case - OP - go to Harvard.


Yea, but consider that HLS' COA is about $210,000 over three years, plus whatever UG debt he had (maybe 30-40k?) and you get 160k (210 + 30 - 84)


Understood, which is why I Edited my post to add that I didnt see he had UG debt factored in (which is 20k according to the OP)

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:51 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Bumping this now that we are deep in the cycle and I have most of the options narrowed down.

Is the T10 free ride a Darrow? If so, won't living expenses come out to almost 30,000 cheaper than what you have listed (something like 53k vs. 80k)?

Nonetheless, if you're convinced you want academia then HLS is the correct choice. On the other hand, academia really is so rare regardless of where you go, and I agree with the recent arguments on TLS that students who have never been in a law school classroom should recognize how little they know about whether they'd like academia so as to confidently make a decision based on this interest. To add another trolling-for-Michigan-comment, the risk of not landing biglaw is obviously higher at Michigan than it is at HLS, but having the AA hiring boost may make Michigan a safer bet than it might be for other Darrows who don't have this "advantage". Because of this boost in your hiring situation compared to other Darrows, the significantly lower price of Michigan (especially if you land a firm diversity position with a stipend that will make school almost free) may make it worth especially strong consideration.

rundoxierun
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:53 pm

So earlier today I communicated with 3 African-American T-14 grads regarding this decision. In total, Ive communicated with about a half dozen AA T-14 grads, 2 admissions deans and a law school dean(all at tier 3 schools but one is a Yale law grad) that I know personally. All immediately said Harvard. I guess its time to end my cycle.

For those wondering, the Harvard max grant is $29,800 which leaves 42k to take out in loans. Factor in interest accumulated on loans and a 4-5% base loan increase every year plus undergrad debt of about 24k and you get to a figure around 155-160k.

Thanks for the comments.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby Nom Sawyer » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:57 pm

Got to run now so can't give a full comment.. But just so you know, the CoL estimate for Harvard is quite high depending on what you choose.

You could easily knock about 10K to 15K a year off of that depending on your choices.

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Knock
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Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby Knock » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:57 pm

tkgrrett wrote:So earlier today I communicated with 3 African-American T-14 grads regarding this decision. In total, Ive communicated with about a half dozen AA T-14 grads, 2 admissions deans and a law school dean(all at tier 3 schools but one is a Yale law grad) that I know personally. All immediately said Harvard. I guess its time to end my cycle.

For those wondering, the Harvard max grant is $29,800 which leaves 42k to take out in loans. Factor in interest accumulated on loans and a 4-5% base loan increase every year plus undergrad debt of about 24k and you get to a figure around 155-160k.

Thanks for the comments.


You going to stick around for a SLS decision?

notanumber
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:28 pm

Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby notanumber » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:39 pm

tkgrrett wrote:So earlier today I communicated with 3 African-American T-14 grads regarding this decision. In total, Ive communicated with about a half dozen AA T-14 grads, 2 admissions deans and a law school dean(all at tier 3 schools but one is a Yale law grad) that I know personally. All immediately said Harvard. I guess its time to end my cycle.

For those wondering, the Harvard max grant is $29,800 which leaves 42k to take out in loans. Factor in interest accumulated on loans and a 4-5% base loan increase every year plus undergrad debt of about 24k and you get to a figure around 155-160k.

Thanks for the comments.


I think you made the right decision. I suspect that, had you not gone to Harvard, you'd always wonder "what if." Good luck and congratulations on the decision! I look forward to crushing y'all at the Yale/Harvard game :wink: .

rundoxierun
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Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:46 am

Re: H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:43 pm

Knock wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:So earlier today I communicated with 3 African-American T-14 grads regarding this decision. In total, Ive communicated with about a half dozen AA T-14 grads, 2 admissions deans and a law school dean(all at tier 3 schools but one is a Yale law grad) that I know personally. All immediately said Harvard. I guess its time to end my cycle.

For those wondering, the Harvard max grant is $29,800 which leaves 42k to take out in loans. Factor in interest accumulated on loans and a 4-5% base loan increase every year plus undergrad debt of about 24k and you get to a figure around 155-160k.

Thanks for the comments.


You going to stick around for a SLS decision?


I mean Im not withdrawing my app but at a certain point you go from being "picky" to being ridiculous. Stanford is approaching that point.




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