H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What would you take? (Debt figures include undergrad)

Harvard w/ ~$160K debt($2,000 monthly payment)
62
86%
UC-Berkeley w/ ~$85K debt ($1,000 monthly payment)
2
3%
Michigan w/~70K debt(~$800 monthly payment)
8
11%
 
Total votes: 72

rundoxierun
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H w/ 30k grant v. T10 full ride

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:08 pm

I know there are plenty of threads on H v. T10 full ride but all of those seem to be H at, or near, sticker vs. the full ride. Im lucky(?) enough to be somewhat poor so I should be given the max grant possible(tuition alone for a year will be more than my family income) of about 28k based on past years. This would leave about a 12-17k/yr difference between the schools. I ask for advice because I think it is really difficult for me to think of this in the proper perspective b/c even taking out 60k debt for COL psychologically seems like a huge burden to me.

A few key factors are:
1) Would like biglaw after graduation but eventually would like to transition into government/in-house/academia.(its kind of hard to really decide what I "want" to do since realistic options depend on class rank.)
2) Im a black male and first in my family to attend college so the Harvard name does have some value to me, my family, and my mentors.
3) Not dead set against working in NYC but would prefer to work in any other region.
4) Coming straight out of undergrad at age 22 w/ about 20k in undergrad debt.
5) Yes, I realize that 160k is about 96-100k after taxes and 150k in debt is almost 2k/month in loan payments.

Advise... And dont tell me to apply to yale 8)
Last edited by rundoxierun on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DeeCee
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby DeeCee » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:28 pm

Retake so you can go everywhere for free.

No, totally kidding, congrats on your achievement. You should pick the route that makes YOU happy, I'm sure your family would be proud no matter what. If knowing you will be free of law school debt is important, than do that. I know that would be more important to me, being as I don't want to do BigLaw so I'll be paying back my debt forever. If the Harvard name is more important or you feel it will serve you better (which if you want to do BigLaw than it probably will) then go for that. HTH.

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FuManChusco
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby FuManChusco » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:47 pm

If you want legal academia then go to H. I would go to H anyway. That debt won't be a burden with a Harvard JD.

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DeeCee
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby DeeCee » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:58 pm

FuManChusco wrote:If you want legal academia then go to H. I would go to H anyway. That debt won't be a burden with a Harvard JD.


That's true. For academia Harvard is golden. I didn't take that into consideration.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm

This is a complete no-brainer; take Harvard. For most people, Harvard at full price makes sense over a full ride at Columbia (imo, anyway). Once you factor in grant money and the far better LRAP... well, yeah.

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Sentry
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Sentry » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:28 pm

You should go to HYS no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT!

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DieAntwoord
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby DieAntwoord » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:29 pm

Sentry wrote:You should go to HYS no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT!

hamilton?

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Sentry
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Sentry » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:30 pm

DieAntwoord wrote:
Sentry wrote:You should go to HYS no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT!

hamilton?

H is worth the 17k more per year.

trudat15
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby trudat15 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:32 pm

Agreed with the above. Since you will be getting a good grant from Harvard anyways, the difference will be 15k a year or so over a full ride at CCN. You'll probably get biglaw, so the 45k wont be that big a deal to pay off, plus you'll have the Harvard name and opportunities for academia or whatever else after biglaw that the name provides.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:36 pm

FYI: Your grant money at H does get reduced based on what kind of jobs you work over the summer. They expect you to apply a fairly alrge percentage of your 2L (and 1L, if applicable) SA money to tuition/costs, and will reduce your grant appropriately.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:41 pm

You already know I'm in a pretty similar situation (not a URM but also first to go to college and should receive similar grant money). I'm starting to think HYS + max/close to max grant is the definite choice. The 70-80k(?--the calculation is complicated by interest/summer wages/COL) or so difference in cost just can't make up for the superior job prospects and the superior programs that are available at HYS. This is especially true for younger students like yourself, where the flexibility of the degree and the strength of the Harvard alumni base should help you out long-term (as noted ITT, this is an issue if you want to enter academia, for instance).

Good luck on your decision. I'm interested in others responses to this question as well (though I doubt I'll get a t10 full ride).
Last edited by The Real Jack McCoy on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thickfreakness
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby thickfreakness » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:42 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:FYI: Your grant money at H does get reduced based on what kind of jobs you work over the summer. They expect you to apply a fairly alrge percentage of your 2L (and 1L, if applicable) SA money to tuition/costs, and will reduce your grant appropriately.


Just get paid under the table. In the words of Randy Moss: "straight cash, homey."

DeepSeaLaw
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby DeepSeaLaw » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:26 am

Two more things to keep in mind:

1) Harvard's LIPP is extremely flexible. With a Harvard JD, you will get some kind of a legal job even if you do pretty badly. If that job doesn't pay well and you have significant debt, HLS will pay off all or most of your debt, even if that job isn't public interest. Or, if you take a public-interest job that isn't particularly legal in nature, LIPP will still kick in.

2) Debt is still debt, even if you have fantastic resources for easing the burden. Layoffs and career changes do still happen, and having additional debt makes that more stressful.

Also, remember that academia will be very tough even from Harvard, especially if you approach it as an afterthought like many people do. Academics have traditionally had stellar grades plus law review even from the very top schools. Publishing has always been important and is increasingly so, and many more jobs today are going to people with other advanced degrees.

For top government posts, there's no question that Harvard has a significant advantage over Columbia.

On the balance, I think HLS makes sense in your situation, but there's no definitive/no-brainer answer here.

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Reedie
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Reedie » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:56 am

There is no wrong decision here. It's not dumb to choose Harvard for the reputation and prestige despite the extra debt, and it's not dumb to take a full ride at a T10 to avoid the debt while still getting an excellent law degree. If you are thinking about minimizing debt, I would encourage you to remember that cost of living will be the main source of what debt you do take on at a T10. Further, I encourage you to make sure you consider where you will enjoy living and going to law school. People here obsess about some marginal job placement difference they think they've found in incomplete data and don't consider at all that 1) enjoying your three years of legal education matters in itself and 2) that people perform better when they aren't miserable. This same kind of thinking will lead far too many to take jobs they don't like and work them for years, all due to the misguided notion that it builds up to some sort of magical payoff in the future, and when that payoff never arrives they will vent their entitled anger on above the law.

Cost of living and quality of life were the decisive factor in my final decision of where to go to school.

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Law Sauce
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:37 am

Visit.

spondee
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby spondee » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:39 am

tkgrrett wrote:Question is, at this point, especially since some like Mordecai and possibly AnBryce will require me to spend money on interviews, is there any reason to consider full rides from other(non-Stanford) schools??


Some of those full rides are not merely money. You might also be receiving a guaranteed 1L SA position, a faculty mentor or two, regular one-on-one or small-group interactions with the dean, exam-taking tutoring, etc. These may be things that H can't offer, maybe even S can't offer. I'm not saying it makes it worth turning down H and S, because I don't know, but it's worth at least completing the interviews and finding out what all the perks are.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:26 pm

Reedie wrote:There is no wrong decision here. It's not dumb to choose Harvard for the reputation and prestige despite the extra debt, and it's not dumb to take a full ride at a T10 to avoid the debt while still getting an excellent law degree. If you are thinking about minimizing debt, I would encourage you to remember that cost of living will be the main source of what debt you do take on at a T10. Further, I encourage you to make sure you consider where you will enjoy living and going to law school. People here obsess about some marginal job placement difference they think they've found in incomplete data and don't consider at all that 1) enjoying your three years of legal education matters in itself and 2) that people perform better when they aren't miserable. This same kind of thinking will lead far too many to take jobs they don't like and work them for years, all due to the misguided notion that it builds up to some sort of magical payoff in the future, and when that payoff never arrives they will vent their entitled anger on above the law.

Cost of living and quality of life were the decisive factor in my final decision of where to go to school.


Damn Reed students.

The advice is great advice. You put yourself in a great position; at this point it is a matter of doing well at the school you decide to attend (which will be much easier if your happy).

irishman86
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby irishman86 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:11 am

Lower T10 student, who would go to Harvard in this situation. I would, however, take a full ride at T10 over any school except HYS.

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Veyron
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Veyron » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:50 am

You're going to be dealing with very different people now. You need to start thinking about concepts like your network, the next 30 years of your career, lifetime earning potential. Comprehend that there is a difference between frugality and stupidity. You need to stop making decisions like a poor person, your future depends on it and you've earned the right.

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tallboone
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby tallboone » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:31 am

Depends. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer? I mean, are you REALLY sure you want to be a lawyer? Because if you go to Harvard and count on using LIPP, I'm pretty sure you have to use that law degree. Personally, I would take the T10 full-ride unless I wanted to be in academia and wouldn't be happy doing anything else. Even then, your shot coming from Harvard isn't spectacular, unless you know for a fact that you have the writing ability to be published.

After being in law school for one semester...I often wish I had gone for free.

DeepSeaLaw
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby DeepSeaLaw » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:50 pm

tallboone wrote:Depends. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer? I mean, are you REALLY sure you want to be a lawyer? Because if you go to Harvard and count on using LIPP, I'm pretty sure you have to use that law degree. Personally, I would take the T10 full-ride unless I wanted to be in academia and wouldn't be happy doing anything else. Even then, your shot coming from Harvard isn't spectacular, unless you know for a fact that you have the writing ability to be published.

After being in law school for one semester...I often wish I had gone for free.


Non-legal public interest jobs are also covered, but your point still stands: if you hate being a lawyer and want to move to a non-legal corporate job paying $50,000 a year, you will be in a tight spot. Yale's LRAP, as far as I know, is the only one that will cover you no matter what you do.

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plenipotentiary
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby plenipotentiary » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:55 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Visit.


TCR.

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Law Sauce
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:01 pm

Veyron wrote:Comprehend that there is a difference between frugality and stupidity. You need to stop making decisions like a poor person, your future depends on it and you've earned the right.

plenipotentiary wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:Visit.


TCR.


again, this and this

edited to say that agreement with Veyron is if society's highest tier is what you want, not saying it should be or shouldnt be

Aqualibrium
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:08 pm

Wrong thread :P
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

irishman86
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Re: H max grant v. CCN/T10 full ride

Postby irishman86 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:12 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:From what I've seen (and I know you saw it as well) the job prospects for anyone in Colorado are not superb. DU with a full scholarship is probably a better bet if CU is going to put you over 80k in debt. Especially since there really is going to be marginal difference in the class rank you need to get the type of job you'd like.


Excuse the meme, but LOL WUT?




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