Loyola University New Orleans - Break In's? Forum

[20160810]

You don't have to be from a city to have a pretty good idea that there's not a lot going on for graduates of the T4 law school there. I don't need to know where to get the best burrito in order to know that (1.) compared to major cities (NY/LA/etc.) the legal market is tiny and (2.) students from the T4 school are going to be pretty far down the pecking order. If you've got evidence to suggest that there are vastly more summer associate positions at good firms (meaning not insurance defense, not family law, etc.) than I've indicated (meaning, let's say, more than double what shows up on NALP), then by all means, I'm all ears. I don't really have a horse in this race one way or another. But "I live here and golf with local attornies" isn't really selling me.

There are vastly more than 50 summer associate jobs at "good firms." You pull a number out of your ass, support it by referencing NALP, and call it evidence? Then you guesstimate based on your already inaccurate picture and call it evidence? Get real.

Also, no one is going to argue that Loyola is some sort of powerhouse. That isn't true. From the beginning, my contention was that 1) There is a perception of Tulane students as flight risks 2) New Orleans firms still hire from Tulane, but they hire from Loyola as well 3) For a Louisiana resident who wants to work in New Orleans, Loyola with money may be a better option than the more expensive school across the street...for 50-150k more, Tulane is not worth the marginally worse than at Loyola class rank you'd need to still get firm work in New Orleans. Again, no one is digging down to the median at either school. At either school, to be safe, you're gonna need to be in the top quarter.

You're sitting here arguing that Loyola grads have no chance at "real" or "legit" firm work, and you're just flat out WRONG. You're arguing that the school isn't worth going to for someone who wants to work in the city, and would have a significantly lower debt load at the school than at Tulane, because only the top "few percent, if that have any shot at legit firm jobs/Loyola grads are completely foreclosed from doing legit firm work." You are WRONG.

It's not about playing golf, it's about seeing, more often than not, equal amounts of Tulane and Loyola grads at most of the very best firms in New Orleans. Both on their web rosters, and with my own two eyes. It's about personally knowing people who went through the job search process from both schools. In this one though, you don't have a dog in the fight, and you are just flat out wrong.

To all the people who look at this thread in the future:

If you are a Louisiana resident, Loyola offers you money, and you want to live and work in New Orleans, Loyola is good bet depending on your potential debt load at Tulane. Tulane is a good school, but it very well may not be worth the increased cost if you know with some degree of certainty that New Orleans is where you want to settle.

TLDR

[Aqualibrium]

LOL

[Emu]

Original topic of breakins: The university area is among the safest in town, but it is surrounded by average level risk areas. There are occasional incidents near the university area, but by and large they're non-violent, although there was (approx 10 yrs ago, a few after I went to Tulane for undergrad) a serial rapist, but that was a one-time deal.

Digressed topic of loyola vs the world: I'm an older student who just got into Loyola Law. I can't tell you a lot of comparative 411 about how Loyola graduates theoretically stack up to other schools in other markets, but as a working paralegal and a guy who has lived in this town for a long time and grown up around professionals, I can tell you what the local climate is like for tulane and loyola law grads vs other school grads.

People like people like themselves. That being said, the majority of the town's politicians and practicing lawyers and power structure, if they have a JD, they went to Loyola. There is a small minority who went to Tulane, and again, they prefer their own, but that is considered a luxury - not because of a real perceived Tulane premium, but just due to sparseness. The Loyola grads outnumber the Tulane grads by at least 2-3 to 1.

So, all grades and class ranks and such being equal, the best thing is to be a native New Orleanian who went to Loyola. Second best is a native who went to Tulane. A special third best category that has the potential to trump first or second best is an ivy-league man from mars type of situation, meaning that if you went to harvard and you apply for the same job as a native loyola grad, it depends on the preference of the hiring partner, and what they're looking for. Of course in any other market the equally ranked harvard grad will have the edge, but again, not my purview.

Way down the list are people who come from other places and go to either school, and again, it's better to have gone to loyola. The most prevalent perception is that loyola grads come out ready to work and that tulane grads come out without practical knowledge. Not saying that's right or wrong, just that it's perception. They think tulane is quasi-ivy and the assumption is that people who come out of tulane are too soft, whereas loyola grads are scrappers.

[MannyFresh]

Loyola has incredible job placement within the New Orleans metro area. There is likely no other "tier-3" school in the country with the same strong local reputation of Loyola. Loyola students have built this reputation by being well trained in Louisiana litigation procedure and being eager to get in the courtroom immediately upon graduation. Most of the top trial lawyers in New Orleans came out of Loyola. Given that Louisiana is a litigation centric legal market, Loyola students fare much better than tier-three and even tier-two schools in other cities.

Another big advantage of Loyola is that to get hired at a New Orleans firm it is important to be at or near the top 10% of your class. Local firms tend to not discriminate between Loyola, LSU, and Tulane when looking at class rank. If your goal is to work only in New Orleans, then keep in mind the caliber of your competition at Loyola. Loyola has some of the lowest admission requirements of any ABA approved law school in the country. Loyola's average LSAT is a 152 which sits below the 50th percentile among test takers and at the very bottom of people that actually apply to law school. LSU's average LSAT is a 157, which sits at the 75th percentile. Tulane's average LSAT is a 163, which sits at the 90th percentile of test takers. Thus, it is much easier to be in the top 10% of you class from Loyola than from a Tulane. If your goal is to stay in New Orleans, then it is not a bad choice to go to Loyola on scholarship.

There are drawbacks to New Orleans though. First, the work in New Orleans firms is not exactly the most "sophisticated." Second, the New Orleans legal market is very low paying compared to other cities of its size. Salaries are much higher throughout the rest of the southeast. The very top New Orleans firms (who might hire the #1 or #2 ranked student out of 350 students at Loyola) cap out around $100K total comp. Most New Orleans firms are between $60K-$80K for graduates in the top 10% of the Loyola class. Keep in mind that most Loyola students will not get anything near these salaries. At least 80% of the class will be working at $30K-$40K, if they can find jobs at all. Given the expensive private schools, high taxes, and sky-high law school tuition in New Orleans, one should really run the numbers to decide if three years in law school is a good investment at these relatively low salaries.

Finally, Loyola presents very little opportunity outside of the New Orleans metro area. LSU presents opportunities in all of Louisiana, South Mississippi, Alabama, and Houston. Tulane will present you the same opportunities as LSU plus a limited number of positions on the eastern seaboard and throughout the rest of the southeast.

Hope this helps

[Aberzombie1892]

I don't know why so many people that have no idea about the New Orleans legal market are talking like they know how the market works. I'm a 3L at Tulane and my gf is a 2L at Loyola, so I'm fairly certain that I know what's going on.

If you want to work in New Orleans, in any legal capacity, Tulane is a better option. I realize that the focus is on high paid big firm work; to that end, Tulane is a notably better option than Loyola. There are only a few large firm jobs in this area; in fact, last summer 4 of the largest 5 firm offices in New Orleans only had 23 total summer associate spots (Jones/Phelps/Stone/Adams - basically big law and 1 mid law firm). As you can imagine, the competition was FIERCE but Tulane is universally considered to be the better option. Our job list hasn't been updated yet, but historically Tulane has been better represented in the large firms than Loyola (at both the summer associate and associate levels).

The major difference in local placement between the schools shows when you begin to look at jobs outside of the big firms - this can be said about any situation when you compare to schools in the same market. Government, public interest, smaller firms, etc. heavily prefer Tulane students over Loyola students. However, because most Tulane students leave Louisiana (even now), Loyola graduates are able to acquire these jobs.

I'm uncertain as to the "flight risk" theory. I haven't encountered it and no one I know has complained about it. I've interned/summered with 3 places in New Orleans and no one has asked me any questions that any other employer would ask.

However, consider the class make up of my three local jobs:

Job 1 - 3 Tulane/1 Loyola (state gov)
Job 2 - 5 Tulane/1 Loyola (city gov)
Job 3 - 4 Tulane/0 Loyola (private sector)

For non-local placement, Tulane is dramatically better. But no one disputes that. 40% of the class of 2010 did not work in Louisiana, Texas, or New York (with a nice distribution across the US for the remainder).

I'm not going to check this thread, so PM me if you want to ask me anything about either school.

[MannyFresh]

Aberzombie,

I think that most students here at Loyola would agree that Tulane is a much better law school than we are. Most students also understand that going to school ranked as low as Loyola is a black mark that you will have to explain for the rest of your career, if you leave New Orleans.

However, that wasn't my point. I am just stating that Loyola students have disproporitonately good job opportunities compared to our credentials (or relative lack of credentials) going in. There isn't anyone in my class that got into Tulane. Otherwise they would have gone.

[MannyFresh]

Eh, I'm unsold that it's worth borrowing money for a degree from this school. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it seems like a bad bet.

Are you also still convinced that there are only 9 firms in the state and "50 summer jobs at most" in New Orleans?

Anyway, of course when faced with sticker at Loyola vs sticker at Tulane, the choice for a Louisiana native is probably Tulane (actually the choice is rethink law school or at least go to LSU). I wouldn't tell anyone to borrow a significant amount of money (and by that I mean 90-100K plus) to go to any school that isn't in the t14. Fact is though, Loyola has a history of being pretty generous with aid, and people who get into Tulane generally get large scholarship at the school. Whether you're at Tulane or Loyola, you're probably not gonna have an easy go of things if you aren't in the top 25%; no body is digging down to the median levels of either school's class. Whatever difference in class rank you need to be from Loyola vs Tulane probably isn't significant enough to take on considerably more debt for someone who wants to work in New Orleans

Again, any other situation, you're right, but to say that only the top 2-5% "if that" are gonna get "legit" firm work, and that this school is just straight up bad (the 0L's said that not you) is foolish. Especially because you don't know jack shit about the school or about the legal environment in the city or the state. The fact that you brought up NALP as a way of ascertaining with any degree of certainty the number of legal jobs available in the state clearly illustrates your lack of knowledge in this area.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm in a law school that isn't Loyola as are you, we aren't looking to get admitted anywhere. I am, however, gonna politely ask you to stop short of making sweeping generalizations about things you clearly don't have a clue on.

If you're only looking at firms that pay market or close to it, then let's double NALP and you're still not looking at a big enough number that there are going to be a lot of spots left for Loyola students.

Haha, SBL, I've seen the firm rosters. I've talked to the attorneys! Tell me, what is the market range in New Orleans? How do you know how many firms there are paying it? Have you ever spoken to a judge, attorney, hiring partner about how they view the local schools in terms of hiring? Have you ever set foot inside a major New Orleans law firm?

And for bonus points, who makes the best Pimm's Cup in the quarter? Which Tropical Isle is the best one to get a Hurricane at?

There are no "major firms" in New Orleans...so I am not sure which "major firms" you are referring to. The only major firms with any presence in New Orleans are Proskauer and Locke Lord, both of which only recruit out of Tulane and T14. The "major firms" you are referring to are mid-size regional firms (JW, Phelps, Adams, etc.). Loyola has an excellent reputation with these firms despite their open admission requirements and low ranking. That is why Loyola is such a great school for working in New Orleans.

[mattviphky]

where do tulane students exactly fly to? I'm just curious what employment looked like for Tulane grads and where they usually wind up working or can work. I haven't heard much about the school's job prospects. How mobile is a degree there?

[Aqualibrium]

There are no "major firms" in New Orleans...so I am not sure which "major firms" you are referring to. The only major firms with any presence in New Orleans are Proskauer and Locke Lord, both of which only recruit out of Tulane and T14. The "major firms" you are referring to are mid-size regional firms (JW, Phelps, Adams, etc.). Loyola has an excellent reputation with these firms despite their open admission requirements and low ranking. That is why Loyola is such a great school for working in New Orleans.

I didn't say major national firms with a New Orleans presence, I said major New Orleans firms, which means the upper echelonfirms in the city itself...

[MannyFresh]

There are no "major firms" in New Orleans...so I am not sure which "major firms" you are referring to. The only major firms with any presence in New Orleans are Proskauer and Locke Lord, both of which only recruit out of Tulane and T14. The "major firms" you are referring to are mid-size regional firms (JW, Phelps, Adams, etc.). Loyola has an excellent reputation with these firms despite their open admission requirements and low ranking. That is why Loyola is such a great school for working in New Orleans.

I didn't say major national firms with a New Orleans presence, I said major New Orleans firms, which means the upper echelonfirms in the city itself...

...but the upper echelon New Orleans firms are the equivalent of mid to lower tier firms in other cities. It is confusing to out of state students if they think they can go to Loyola and work for the same quality of firm as they could in Birmingham, Richmond, or Memphis. The firms in New Orleans pay much less and tend to (but not always) do less sophisticated work than their equivalents in Birmingham, Richmond, or Memphis. The New Orleans legal market is more on par with a Mobile, Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi.

[Aqualibrium]

There are no "major firms" in New Orleans...so I am not sure which "major firms" you are referring to. The only major firms with any presence in New Orleans are Proskauer and Locke Lord, both of which only recruit out of Tulane and T14. The "major firms" you are referring to are mid-size regional firms (JW, Phelps, Adams, etc.). Loyola has an excellent reputation with these firms despite their open admission requirements and low ranking. That is why Loyola is such a great school for working in New Orleans.

I didn't say major national firms with a New Orleans presence, I said major New Orleans firms, which means the upper echelon firms in the city itself...

...but the upper echelon New Orleans firms are the equivalent of mid to lower tier firms in other cities. It is confusing to out of state students if they think they can go to Loyola and work for the same quality of firm as they could in Birmingham, Richmond, or Memphis. The firms in New Orleans pay much less and tend to (but not always) do less sophisticated work than their equivalents in Birmingham, Richmond, or Memphis. The New Orleans legal market is more on par with a Mobile, Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi.

I was going to say something, but this is just splitting hairs...There are upper level firms in New Orleans, and then there are the firms below them.

[Jah'rakal]

New Orleans is a great city and Loyola is a great school for it, just leave it at that

[CanadianWolf]

Your concerns are valid. New Orleans is not like other big cities due to the checkerboard pattern of neighborhoods. The best main line neighborhoods are just a couple of blocks from some very rough areas. Not sure if any of this was modified after Katrina, however.