Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
floridasammy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:52 pm

Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby floridasammy » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:59 pm

I have a question for the hive mind that is the Top Law Schools Forum

So I know that the biggest reason not to go to a T3 or T4 is that you will never be able to pay off the debt you incur. The job you will get will never be good enough to pay the enormous cost of law school.

I am very fortunate (not to brag, it had nothing to do with me, I just happened to be born into it) that I can go to law school without any debt when I come out.

Is it worth it to go to a T3 or T4? I mean I am very interested in the law and I feel like it is an opportunity to go to law school. I don't have the best numbers so even though I did apply to a wide variety of schools it is possible that I will only get into a T3 or T4

What do you guys think?

User avatar
OGR3
Posts: 881
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby OGR3 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:02 pm

floridasammy wrote:I have a question for the hive mind that is the Top Law Schools Forum

So I know that the biggest reason not to go to a T3 or T4 is that you will never be able to pay off the debt you incur. The job you will get will never be good enough to pay the enormous cost of law school.

I am very fortunate (not to brag, it had nothing to do with me, I just happened to be born into it) that I can go to law school without any debt when I come out.

Is it worth it to go to a T3 or T4? I mean I am very interested in the law and I feel like it is an opportunity to go to law school. I don't have the best numbers so even though I did apply to a wide variety of schools it is possible that I will only get into a T3 or T4

What do you guys think?


A T3 like Montana if you want to practice in Missoula? It's absolutely a good idea if you're in state.

Just because you have the money doesn't mean you should flush it down the toilet at Pace.

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:08 pm

If you're interested in law then I probably wouldn't go to a TTTT. You'll be doing doc review for 35k a year and you'll hate the legal field.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:08 pm

OGR3 wrote:
floridasammy wrote:I have a question for the hive mind that is the Top Law Schools Forum

So I know that the biggest reason not to go to a T3 or T4 is that you will never be able to pay off the debt you incur. The job you will get will never be good enough to pay the enormous cost of law school.

I am very fortunate (not to brag, it had nothing to do with me, I just happened to be born into it) that I can go to law school without any debt when I come out.

Is it worth it to go to a T3 or T4? I mean I am very interested in the law and I feel like it is an opportunity to go to law school. I don't have the best numbers so even though I did apply to a wide variety of schools it is possible that I will only get into a T3 or T4

What do you guys think?


A T3 like Montana if you want to practice in Missoula? It's absolutely a good idea if you're in state.

Just because you have the money doesn't mean you should flush it down the toilet at Pace.


But if it's mommy and daddy's money why not.

User avatar
4for44
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby 4for44 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
OGR3 wrote:
floridasammy wrote:I have a question for the hive mind that is the Top Law Schools Forum

So I know that the biggest reason not to go to a T3 or T4 is that you will never be able to pay off the debt you incur. The job you will get will never be good enough to pay the enormous cost of law school.

I am very fortunate (not to brag, it had nothing to do with me, I just happened to be born into it) that I can go to law school without any debt when I come out.

Is it worth it to go to a T3 or T4? I mean I am very interested in the law and I feel like it is an opportunity to go to law school. I don't have the best numbers so even though I did apply to a wide variety of schools it is possible that I will only get into a T3 or T4

What do you guys think?


A T3 like Montana if you want to practice in Missoula? It's absolutely a good idea if you're in state.

Just because you have the money doesn't mean you should flush it down the toilet at Pace.


But if it's mommy and daddy's money why not.


Entitled rant (at OP not DF) commencing... If you shouldn't go if you have to pay for it yourself, then you definitely should go if someone else if footing the bill... 1. you'd be wasting their money so that you could make less money than a college grad. 2. you'd be wasting their money only to hate whatever work you do get. 3. YOU'D BE WASTING THEIR MONEY! Just because you can spend mommy and daddy's money, doesn't mean you should. Get a job with the free degree you already have, and tell them to go to Europe for a month or something... it will bring both of you greater utility, I guarantee it...

User avatar
ggocat
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby ggocat » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:27 pm

Depends what "worth it" means to you.

If you want to be a lawyer, then yes, it's worth it.

I went to a T3 on scholarship. I'd probably be making about the same as I do now if I stayed in my line of work before law school (plus had 3 years of income). But I'm clerking for a judge and loving it. I would make the same decision.

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:42 pm

Overall this has a lot to do with what kind of law you want to practice. If you want big law or high profile stuff (or even midlaw right out of school) then you want to go at least in the top 20. If you would be happy not raking in the big bucks, at least right away, then it might be a good idea.

Actually, some T3 schools are well respected in their local areas. This usually works out best with smaller cities without T1 or T2 schools nearby. Small and mid-sized firms are wary of hiring T14 grads that will jump ship for a major market the first chance they get but will take the local graduates since their degree is less mobile. Also, the managing partner at a firm with 90 lawyers in my area told me that since they don't have to constantly hire like the huge firms, they like to bring in people with a few years experience (because they don't have to train them as much) so even if you do get a lower paying job directly out of school, there is still a chance to make good money if you can distinguish yourself. If you can, try to determine the reputation of schools that give you in their area. TLS makes it seem like T3 is a one way ticket to the poor house but it doesn't have to be if it is free and the school is in an area where you wont have a lot of competition from higher ranked schools.

Edit: T4 may or may not be different. I've only discussed my local schools with lawyers. And edit for OP, I read thread tile not post sorry :oops:
Last edited by AreJay711 on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mez06
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby mez06 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:08 am

Listen, please do not take head to EVERYTHING on this board. Many of these people are snotty nosed undergrad kids who, though knowledgeable about the law school application process, have not a clue of the real-world in any capacity.

There are plenty of T3 schools that will afford you the opportunity to make a very good living. Again, you have to look at this from a career standpoint as well. Bust your butt in school, come out making 60-70K. From there, there are such things as performance increase and merit based raises. You may not start off with the high salary but you can certainly climb your way to that realm.

Especially if the school is located in an area where top schools don't relocate too, its a decent shot. At the end of the day, you personally are pursuing a career not a paycheck. It's something to be said for truly enjoying your job. Pursuit what makes you happy(a legal career). Plus the fact that its technically free? reap the benefits my friend and tell everyone else to piss off.

floridasammy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby floridasammy » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:28 am

Thank you for your replies. I just want to clarify a few things.

First of all, I did apply to many other schools besides T3 and T4. I applied to a couple T14 and T1 and a few T2. I applied to 10 schools at varying Tiers levels. I am a URM so hopefully that will help in my acceptances.

Second of all, I don't want to go into Big Law. I know that a lot of people who go into BigLaw end up burning out and I dont want that to happen. The caseload, the work hours and the stress is brutal. I think that I am interested in immigration law, and that is the type of law that I would love to practice.


I know that I have a great opportunity and that I am very lucky to have my legal education paid for. While the first few posters said that I would be wasting my parents money, I hope that I can make it an enjoyable career, if not the most lucrative one. I know firsthand from my financially fortunate family that money does not buy happiness (yes it is very cliched), although having enough money to live a good life is very helpful

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:58 am

mez06 wrote:Listen, please do not take head to EVERYTHING on this board. Many of these people are snotty nosed undergrad kids who, though knowledgeable about the law school application process, have not a clue of the real-world in any capacity.

There are plenty of T3 schools that will afford you the opportunity to make a very good living. Again, you have to look at this from a career standpoint as well. Bust your butt in school, come out making 60-70K. From there, there are such things as performance increase and merit based raises. You may not start off with the high salary but you can certainly climb your way to that realm.

Especially if the school is located in an area where top schools don't relocate too, its a decent shot. At the end of the day, you personally are pursuing a career not a paycheck. It's something to be said for truly enjoying your job. Pursuit what makes you happy(a legal career). Plus the fact that its technically free? reap the benefits my friend and tell everyone else to piss off.


floridasammy wrote:Thank you for your replies. I just want to clarify a few things.

First of all, I did apply to many other schools besides T3 and T4. I applied to a couple T14 and T1 and a few T2. I applied to 10 schools at varying Tiers levels. I am a URM so hopefully that will help in my acceptances.

Second of all, I don't want to go into Big Law. I know that a lot of people who go into BigLaw end up burning out and I dont want that to happen. The caseload, the work hours and the stress is brutal. I think that I am interested in immigration law, and that is the type of law that I would love to practice.


I know that I have a great opportunity and that I am very lucky to have my legal education paid for. While the first few posters said that I would be wasting my parents money, I hope that I can make it an enjoyable career, if not the most lucrative one. I know firsthand from my financially fortunate family that money does not buy happiness (yes it is very cliched), although having enough money to live a good life is very helpful


First off, anyone coming from lower tiers schools would be very fortunate to be making 60-70k. Those salaries are extremely rare and they still won't pay off 6 figure debt. Plus, you call us snotty undergrad kids when you're recommending that he spends his parent's money on a sub-par (I'm being nice) legal education. OP, just because you don't want biglaw, doesn't mean all other jobs are easy to come by. you might not even end up with a legal job after school. there are quite a few shit t4s where you'd be lucky to make 40k post-grad. now, you say you're a URM and you very well might get a good acceptance. I don't think you listed your numbers anywhere ITT so I don't know. when it comes down to it, you're not just wasting your parents money, you're wasting an opportunity that not many people have. why don't you get your numbers up (LSAT?), take advantage of that URM status, and spend your parents money on a school that will get you a great job. its sounds like I'm being a dick, because I am.

edit: as someone said, there are reasonable t3s that place well in a certain region. that obviously isn't as bad as a ttttoilet.

User avatar
mez06
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby mez06 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:34 am

Sammy, do you mind posting your numbers? Or you can PM me. I'm assuming you are in Florida. I hope you applied to Miami being that you are interested in immigration law. Michigan State ("very good" T3 loves URMs---even with sub par stats). You might want to look into schools that have LEOP/LEO conditional programs (i.e. Seton Hall, MSU, etc.). Apply to South Carolina as well.

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:37 am

FuManChusco wrote:If you're interested in law then I probably wouldn't go to a TTTT. You'll be doing doc review for 35k a year and you'll hate the legal field.




Did you just blurt out the first thing you heard someone else say; or read an article on Above the Law?

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:52 am

reasonable_man wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:If you're interested in law then I probably wouldn't go to a TTTT. You'll be doing doc review for 35k a year and you'll hate the legal field.




Did you just blurt out the first thing you heard someone else say; or read an article on Above the Law?


it was just a joke actually, but it's probably closer to the truth than people telling him he'll make 70k a year. do you realize how bad the legal market is?

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:56 am

FuManChusco wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:If you're interested in law then I probably wouldn't go to a TTTT. You'll be doing doc review for 35k a year and you'll hate the legal field.




Did you just blurt out the first thing you heard someone else say; or read an article on Above the Law?


it was just a joke actually, but it's probably closer to the truth than people telling him he'll make 70k a year. do you realize how bad the legal market is?


I agree. For most TTTT grads, the reality is 35 to 50k to start or an extended period of unemployment. There are ways to do it right. Most peolpe won't do it that way though, because its difficult. I graduated from a TTTT in 2008. I earn around 90k or so with all benefits paid for by my firm. Laptop, tech and expense account all included. I'm the exception, not the rule, but its possible. However, doc review is sorta dead for the most part, so really, at this point, its more likely that he/she would earn 40k in plaintiff's side personal injury, or straight up not have a job, than be doing doc review.

Just sayin.

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:05 am

reasonable_man wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:If you're interested in law then I probably wouldn't go to a TTTT. You'll be doing doc review for 35k a year and you'll hate the legal field.




Did you just blurt out the first thing you heard someone else say; or read an article on Above the Law?


it was just a joke actually, but it's probably closer to the truth than people telling him he'll make 70k a year. do you realize how bad the legal market is?


I agree. For most TTTT grads, the reality is 35 to 50k to start or an extended period of unemployment. There are ways to do it right. Most peolpe won't do it that way though, because its difficult. I graduated from a TTTT in 2008. I earn around 90k or so with all benefits paid for by my firm. Laptop, tech and expense account all included. I'm the exception, not the rule, but its possible. However, doc review is sorta dead for the most part, so really, at this point, its more likely that he/she would earn 40k in plaintiff's side personal injury, or straight up not have a job, than be doing doc review.

Just sayin.


fair enough. the bolded provres you are indeed completely reasonable. we've all heard enough anecdotes about people succeeding to know it's possible. I just wouldn't bank on it ITE. if OP is applying to t14s though, his numbers can't be that bad. I think it would be foolish to settle for TTTT just because his parents are footing the bill. what was your debt like afterwards anyway?

TheOcho
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:46 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby TheOcho » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:21 am

mez06 wrote:Listen, please do not take head to EVERYTHING on this board. Many of these people are snotty nosed undergrad kids who, though knowledgeable about the law school application process, have not a clue of the real-world in any capacity.

There are plenty of T3 schools that will afford you the opportunity to make a very good living. Again, you have to look at this from a career standpoint as well. Bust your butt in school, come out making 60-70K. From there, there are such things as performance increase and merit based raises. You may not start off with the high salary but you can certainly climb your way to that realm.

Especially if the school is located in an area where top schools don't relocate too, its a decent shot. At the end of the day, you personally are pursuing a career not a paycheck. It's something to be said for truly enjoying your job. Pursuit what makes you happy(a legal career). Plus the fact that its technically free? reap the benefits my friend and tell everyone else to piss off.


No. Opportunity cost. Also, 60-70k isn't promised even if you do bust your butt.

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:23 am

My TTTT was one of the less expensive ones in a secondary market, so not terrible. Debt sucks for all professinals. The first year was tough, now I've settled in and make my payments each month and deal with it. It sucks, but my salary goes up every year, probably faster than it would in other careers, so it seems worth it. My fiance is also debt free and earns a pretty good salary, so its not all that bad at all. No models and bottles, but I do drive a new (reasonable), car, take trips, go skiing, eat out and live life. All in all, not bad.

bogart
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby bogart » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:23 am

OP, if you do attend one of these schools it is important to attend one where you want to work.
Going to a t4 with dreams of six figures in manhattan is unlikely. What is more likely, is 40k-60K (this high end is probably generous) and working at a public interest, or a small firm. The upside is that those would only be your starting salaries and promotions to partner, etc.. will bump up your income substantially over time. Basically, a nice middle class lifestyle. Good luck to you and please remember to not get discouraged by the process but still be realistic.

zrcm18
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby zrcm18 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:27 pm

Cracks me up that a lot of people suggest that others drop their ambissions of law school if they can't get a 165 or above, and/or can't get into a T-14. A HYS degree (or a degree from any law scool) is worthless if the person can't communicate worth a flip, and is not socially savvy....

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:35 pm

zrcm18 wrote:Cracks me up that a lot of people suggest that others drop their ambissions of law school if they can't get a 165 or above, and/or can't get into a T-14. A HYS degree (or a degree from any law scool) is worthless if the person can't communicate worth a flip, and is not socially savvy....


This isn't business school bro. The legal market sucks. Taking out debt for a low tier school is a bad decision. You'll still have to give up law dreams and you'll be in outrageous debt. Stop being an optimist and giving people false hope. This is TLS god damnit.

User avatar
2Serious4Numbers
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby 2Serious4Numbers » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:39 pm

FuManChusco wrote:
zrcm18 wrote:Cracks me up that a lot of people suggest that others drop their ambissions of law school if they can't get a 165 or above, and/or can't get into a T-14. A HYS degree (or a degree from any law scool) is worthless if the person can't communicate worth a flip, and is not socially savvy....


This isn't business school bro. The legal market sucks. Taking out debt for a low tier school is a bad decision. You'll still have to give up law dreams and you'll be in outrageous debt. Stop being an optimist and giving people false hope. This is TLS god damnit.


ahhh thats the TLS spirit i've come to enjoy

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:51 am

The thing about most of the TLS posters is that they generally live on the coasts or have a desire to move there. For example, if you live in the Midwest there a number of ttt schools and lower range T-1 / T-2 schools that have great placement. Now, you'll probably never work in Manhattan or even Chicago for that matter, but the thing is that if you actually have a real interest in practicing law then a full ride at a lower ranked school is probably not a terrible idea. Especially if you have interests in something like being a public defender or working in a DA's office you are not going to make a lot of money no matter what law school you graduated from.

However, I come from the frozen north and we don't have a lot of "big law" in the Twin Cities, so that probably clouds my judgment a bit. Plus 80K dollars in my neck of the woods probably goes farther than 160K in NYC.

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby Stringer Bell » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:08 am

zrcm18 wrote:Cracks me up that a lot of people suggest that others drop their ambissions of law school if they can't get a 165 or above, and/or can't get into a T-14. A HYS degree (or a degree from any law scool) is worthless if the person can't communicate worth a flip, and is not socially savvy....


This post is fantastic.

bogart
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby bogart » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:40 pm

ThomasMN wrote:The thing about most of the TLS posters is that they generally live on the coasts or have a desire to move there. For example, if you live in the Midwest there a number of ttt schools and lower range T-1 / T-2 schools that have great placement. Now, you'll probably never work in Manhattan or even Chicago for that matter, but the thing is that if you actually have a real interest in practicing law then a full ride at a lower ranked school is probably not a terrible idea. Especially if you have interests in something like being a public defender or working in a DA's office you are not going to make a lot of money no matter what law school you graduated from.

However, I come from the frozen north and we don't have a lot of "big law" in the Twin Cities, so that probably clouds my judgment a bit. Plus 80K dollars in my neck of the woods probably goes farther than 160K in NYC.


while I agree with you, it must be noted that the 80k biglaw in smaller markets is still not that easy to get and requires top grades, maybe not nyc top grades, but top nonetheless.

User avatar
FuManChusco
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Going to a T3 or T4 with no debt

Postby FuManChusco » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:33 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
zrcm18 wrote:Cracks me up that a lot of people suggest that others drop their ambissions of law school if they can't get a 165 or above, and/or can't get into a T-14. A HYS degree (or a degree from any law scool) is worthless if the person can't communicate worth a flip, and is not socially savvy....


This post is fantastic.


And ridiculous. You could give a malnourished giraffe a yale JD and it would probably get a better job than a ttt grad.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: proteinshake and 4 guests