Yale v. Harvard

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:39 am

jcunni5 wrote:yeah in the legal field that's what matters for a law school


for the most part, but for some people, they may want int'l or something outside of law (i know, why go to law school right? lol)

prestige outside of law, while not nearly as important, can play a factor for various reasons

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:41 am

Z3RO wrote:This is not even a question. Yale.


+100000

:shock: People are taking this question and turning it into a debate? How?....

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BruceWayne
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:42 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:yeah in the legal field that's what matters for a law school


for the most part, but for some people, they may want int'l or something outside of law (i know, why go to law school right? lol)

prestige outside of law, while not nearly as important, can play a factor for various reasons


Again for firms there really doesn't seem to be a difference between the 2. And as has already been mentioned, if you're interested in politics, government work, or business at some point it makes more sense to go to Harvard.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:50 am

BruceWayne wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:yeah in the legal field that's what matters for a law school


for the most part, but for some people, they may want int'l or something outside of law (i know, why go to law school right? lol)

prestige outside of law, while not nearly as important, can play a factor for various reasons


Again for firms there really doesn't seem to be a difference between the 2. And as has already been mentioned, if you're interested in politics, government work, or business at some point it makes more sense to go to Harvard.


wait really? there isnt a diff between the two in biglaw? lol thats actually news (of the good kind) to me, if you have supporting data

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BruceWayne
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:56 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:yeah in the legal field that's what matters for a law school


for the most part, but for some people, they may want int'l or something outside of law (i know, why go to law school right? lol)

prestige outside of law, while not nearly as important, can play a factor for various reasons


Again for firms there really doesn't seem to be a difference between the 2. And as has already been mentioned, if you're interested in politics, government work, or business at some point it makes more sense to go to Harvard.


wait really? there isnt a diff between the two in biglaw? lol thats actually news (of the good kind) to me, if you have supporting data



It's more or less the opposite. There's no evidence that Yale places better; TLS gets that from the US News rankings (well and autoadmit.com) . Just like they get the fact that there's a difference between NYU and the rest of the top 10 for non NYC firm jobs from US News. The very small bit of evidence that we have in regards to Yale vs. Harvard firm placement shows that there really isn't any difference (nlj numbers). Think about it, where have you ever actually seen anything that shows that Yale places better in anything other than clerkships and academia? Did you hear that the same place you heard about the "factual" 70 percent Columbia firm placement or the "factual" 30 percent Michigan firm placement?

concurrent fork
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby concurrent fork » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:57 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:B) You work so hard to squeeze the numbers in Harvard's favor as much as possible, but it still doesn't in any way show how Harvard if better than Yale (and it's not).

Not only are those numbers from Autoadmit wrong, they refer to a 2009 source which includes 3Ls in the denominator. It's just a manipulation/fabrication of data.

Anyway, +1 to everything above re: students interested in non-legal, international and political work. For everyone else Yale is usually the better option.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:55 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It's more or less the opposite. There's no evidence that Yale places better; TLS gets that from the US News rankings (well and autoadmit.com) . Just like they get the fact that there's a difference between NYU and the rest of the top 10 for non NYC firm jobs from US News. The very small bit of evidence that we have in regards to Yale vs. Harvard firm placement shows that there really isn't any difference (nlj numbers). Think about it, where have you ever actually seen anything that shows that Yale places better in anything other than clerkships and academia? Did you hear that the same place you heard about the "factual" 70 percent Columbia firm placement or the "factual" 30 percent Michigan firm placement?


lol dont get me wrong; w/o solid data i tend to be open to a lot of things (and even w/ stats, so much is still up in the air). you're right, ive never seen conclusive data going either way for 2Ls at YLS vs. HLS for biglaw jobs -- most of it comes from anecdotal evidence (barely anyone knows of a yalie who couldnt get a biglaw job, but there are def those that are around harvard) that seem to support a very basic, and quite plausible, presumption: if firms see HLS and YLS as equals, the much smaller class size of YLS makes you a hotter commodity, no?

brunonian
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby brunonian » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:16 am

Thanks for the advice guys! This kind of confirmed my initial impressions; I'll still go to the ASWs but I don't see anything at this point that would convince me to go to Harvard (or Stanford)...

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby Na_Swatch » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:30 am

Clearly the reason everyone is not addressing :D :

HLS student: I go to school in Cambridge.

v.

YLS student: I go to Yale Law School ... Yeah it's a really good law school! ... Really! Its ranked number 1 for like the past half century! ... Clinton went there, so did Hillary ... ok so they're not the best examples...


Ok, but in reality, you should go to Yale in almost all cases... Especially that no grade thing, that really does sound nice.

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4for44
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby 4for44 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:46 am

BruceWayne wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:yeah in the legal field that's what matters for a law school


for the most part, but for some people, they may want int'l or something outside of law (i know, why go to law school right? lol)

prestige outside of law, while not nearly as important, can play a factor for various reasons

if you're interested in politics, government work, or business at some point it makes more sense to go to Harvard.


This

also, dont think that regional differences dont make a difference... Outside the east coast, yale doesnt nearly have as much prestige as HLS... even in the legal field (my dad is a lawyer-yes, small sample size-and he is bamboozled that I'm even applying to Yale now that I have my HLS acceptance...)

Hoopster
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby Hoopster » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:15 am

I think, all in all, it comes down to personal preference. I was fortunate enough to be accepted to HYS and went to all the ASWs. Ultimately, it comes down to which is the best fit for you academically, career-wise and personally.

Personally, Harvard was on the bottom of the list because I wanted to be in a small class. I thought New Haven was a pretty cool place to be, with all those bars and restaurants. Fabulous campus, extraordinarily beautiful buildings too. I loved the gym - it's huge with so many things going on at once. I thought the professors were more friendly and accessible than Harvard's. And the students at the ASW were varied, eclectic, mature, extraordinary, different and yet all were friendly and all professed their love for Yale. There were no anti-Harvard sentiments, not a smidge. In fact, they encouraged me to fully vet Harvard before making a decision as they think it's a great school too with a huge upside for any potential 1L.

I also factored in my father's positive experience with Yalies as a long-time V5 partner. He feels Yale produces better attorneys - at least those that don't self-select out of biglaw - with an incredible work ethic capable of adjusting to any changes in the biglaw environment over the long run. And I knew I wanted to be in biglaw in NYC to start my career.

I haven't regretted my decision in going to YLS since. In fact, I'm having a grand time!

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Sentry
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby Sentry » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:07 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:Clearly the reason everyone is not addressing :D :

HLS student: I go to school in Cambridge.

v.

YLS student: I go to Yale Law School ... Yeah it's a really good law school! ... Really! Its ranked number 1 for like the past half century! ... Clinton went there, so did Hillary ... ok so they're not the best examples...


Ok, but in reality, you should go to Yale in almost all cases... Especially that no grade thing, that really does sound nice.

Bill Clinton is the man.

Yale is almost always TCR because of their amazing LRAP.

marlstone
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby marlstone » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:47 am

bump
let's get this conversation going!
Me leaning towards HLS since I am interested in IP, and Boston vs. New Haven is a big factor..

rundoxierun
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby rundoxierun » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:57 pm

Come in to this cycle, I believed the "Always Yale" hype. The more I thought about it, however, it became a lot more clear that people made iffy comparisons to get to that conclusion. A few things that I though about.

1) LRAP: Both have very, very good LRAP programs. Yale has higher income ceiling and possibly covers a wider range of jobs. Harvard assumes a 10 year repayment period instead of 15 and treats marriage a bit better. At the end of the day, Yale's LRAP is probably a little bit better for most people but definitely not enough to be a swaying factor.

2) Academia: Both do very well. Many people try to use percentages to say this is easily for Yale but I think that is a distortion. Due to the relative scarcity of these jobs you really should look at the absolute number as well since Harvard is 3 times as large. Taking this into account, along with self-selection, I really think this category is closer to a wash than people believe. It doesnt seem like one degree is going to give you any sizable advantage over the other.

3) Non-legal: This one is hard to definitively measure. General consensus is that Harvard is a non-legal monster. Im always uncomfortable blindly following consensus but there is very little to suggest otherwise. My biggest non-legal interest would be corporate/consulting. HBS blows away Yale's school and from what I have been told it isnt that difficult to JD/MBA if you want. For me, just the ability to cross-register with HBS is a potential advantage for my interests.

4) Network: While the large size of Harvard may be a disadvantage (percentage wise) for overall job placement, I dont think there is any place better for those who do well. There are no opportunities lost to good students and the Harvard network might open doors you cant even imagine. HLS grads are at the top in every place and in every industry.

5) Personal: Obviously, this depends on the person. I have a SO who is planning on moving out to law school with me and will need a job in an industry that is better served in cities. The 2hr+ commute to NYC from Yale, while possible, would be horrible. In addition, I really dont care much about classroom "intimacy". Professors are accessible enough for me if I can just get them to answer e-mails and show up to office hours. Harvard had a huge advantage here.

I think that for the vast majority of people the Personal should be the deciding factor. Everything else is just too close to be deciding factors. Any arguments that depend on % of class in elite positions/professions are strongly distorted by huge differences in class size and self-selection. Everything indicates that there isnt the huge gap between Harvard and Yale that people tend to believe.

123kl
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby 123kl » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:11 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Come in to this cycle, I believed the "Always Yale" hype. The more I thought about it, however, it became a lot more clear that people made iffy comparisons to get to that conclusion. A few things that I though about.

1) LRAP: Both have very, very good LRAP programs. Yale has higher income ceiling and possibly covers a wider range of jobs. Harvard assumes a 10 year repayment period instead of 15 and treats marriage a bit better. At the end of the day, Yale's LRAP is probably a little bit better for most people but definitely not enough to be a swaying factor.

2) Academia: Both do very well. Many people try to use percentages to say this is easily for Yale but I think that is a distortion. Due to the relative scarcity of these jobs you really should look at the absolute number as well since Harvard is 3 times as large. Taking this into account, along with self-selection, I really think this category is closer to a wash than people believe. It doesnt seem like one degree is going to give you any sizable advantage over the other.

3) Non-legal: This one is hard to definitively measure. General consensus is that Harvard is a non-legal monster. Im always uncomfortable blindly following consensus but there is very little to suggest otherwise. My biggest non-legal interest would be corporate/consulting. HBS blows away Yale's school and from what I have been told it isnt that difficult to JD/MBA if you want. For me, just the ability to cross-register with HBS is a potential advantage for my interests.

4) Network: While the large size of Harvard may be a disadvantage (percentage wise) for overall job placement, I dont think there is any place better for those who do well. There are no opportunities lost to good students and the Harvard network might open doors you cant even imagine. HLS grads are at the top in every place and in every industry.

5) Personal: Obviously, this depends on the person. I have a SO who is planning on moving out to law school with me and will need a job in an industry that is better served in cities. The 2hr+ commute to NYC from Yale, while possible, would be horrible. In addition, I really dont care much about classroom "intimacy". Professors are accessible enough for me if I can just get them to answer e-mails and show up to office hours. Harvard had a huge advantage here.

I think that for the vast majority of people the Personal should be the deciding factor. Everything else is just too close to be deciding factors. Any arguments that depend on % of class in elite positions/professions are strongly distorted by huge differences in class size and self-selection. Everything indicates that there isnt the huge gap between Harvard and Yale that people tend to believe.


+1

westbayguy
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Re: Yale v. Harvard

Postby westbayguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:48 pm

The reasoned response above is pretty much on point. But I would caution not to discount a few very important factors ITE.

No grades first semester (takes the pressure off), only 2 required classes afer 1st semester, no class rank EVER (so 2L job search is easier), no job search/OCI screening, no grade on to law review, no individual class honors to fight over, no mandatory class curves, small class size with substantial non-big law interests (makes search for Big Law jobs MUCH easier- especially in NYC), great DC connections for those hard to find DC jobs, a name that will get you boutique firms (like Susman and Boies) and a congenial faculty that treats students as individuals and not as a burden. And don't minimize the impact of the any job is covered by YLS LRAP and there is a higher income threshold before you start to kick in. (But if you are married to a substantial wage earner the LRAP starts to suck a little)

Sure Cambridge > New Haven in many respects, but New Haven is not as bad as most people who haven't been there think it is. Yale has a great gym (as noted in the credited post) and a beautiful campus. I have to admit I really liked Cambridge as a town, but the HLS campus itself left me a little cold- but maybe that would change with the new building opening.

As for coursework, yes HLS has an advantage due to size and number of courses, but in a past TLS posting someone said you can study whatever you want at YLS and there is someone there to support you. Maybe that takes a litle more self motivation, but it is an option. Of course if you are really sold on IP or Entrepreneurship- other schools MIGHT be better for you than YLS (SLS?), but you better be sure that's what you want before you exclude one school for another- not that SLS or HLS would be a bad choice in any case.

Go to ASW and make up your own mind. I bet you are swayed one way or the other pretty quickly.




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