UC Irvine

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2014
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby 2014 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:29 am

trudat15 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


Doubtful their desires to be high in the rankings will somehow lead to great job placement. If you mean pure # of people with jobs, then yea, I assume they'll try to get everyone employed (although all schools do this, even NU hires post-grad RAs).


If someone like Dean C is making calls for you to get you summer jobs, then imagine what they'll do to make sure you have a good job at grad. It'll be their first few classes, so they need to place alums in great jobs. Their small class sizes help them really focus on jobs for everyone.

Seems like they are much more engaged than other schools' Career centers.

Exactly, I bet the career services people are busting ass and burning through connections to get the first few classes on the ground. From the pure USNWR ranking, placement can be manipulated, but as has been pointed out more or less successfully, a school that cannot place their graduates in good jobs is going to get hit in the peer and legal assessment categories, and it is going to get hit by bad PR which will in turn make it difficult for them to attract high GPAs and LSATs without shelling out huge schollys.

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nealric
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby nealric » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:11 am

First class: 3.43-3.76; 164-168
Second class: 3.38-3.79; 163-169


#1: Looks like they are working those numbers by using more splitters. That would explain the wider 25/75 splits in the second class.

#2: Let's see what happens when people are asked to pony up 50k a year to attend. I can't imagine anybody in their right mind would pick Irvine over USC or UCLA without a cash incentive.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby ViP » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Blindmelon wrote:ViP your trolling is a bit much. You a UCI adcomm member or something? No one said your school isn't being taken seriously or whatever. Its just still an unaccredited school with no track reccord, and for a lot of people, there are better options out there.


I'm a student, and considering the fact that UCI is new, there's a lot of misinformation and lack of knowledge about the school (particularly on TLS). The allegation of "trolling" is funny, considering I'm literally one of perhaps two or three UCI students that ever contribute to this blog. If I didn't take it upon myself to clarify UCI-related issues ("troll," if you like), it's likely that misinformation about UCI would go unnoticed and unamended. Rather than most TLSers, I choose to post on topics that I actually know something about. I could tell other members to "retake" or "ED to UVA yesterday" or "choose UCLA instead of LoyolaLA $$$," but I'm in no position to do that. I'll stick to responding to UCI-related topics.

And someone did in fact say that people won't take UCI seriously until the students "get real jobs." I simply responded to that statement.

irishman86
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby irishman86 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:03 pm

For PI, I would consider it (given the $$$). (Don't most UCI students want PI anyway?)

For firm work, absolutely not.

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Blindmelon
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:57 pm

ViP wrote:
And someone did in fact say that people won't take UCI seriously until the students "get real jobs." I simply responded to that statement.


Fair enough. My bad ViP, I understand the need to correct misinformation. Good luck to you UCI folk!

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby trudat15 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Aside from the debate about Peer/Lawyer assessment scores and how UCI needs to get people employed to get good scores, another good reason is to build an alumni base that will actually be attractive to future students and the school. Why do people choose SC over LA? It's because of the trojan network, which is fantastic here in LA.

If your alums are doing doc review for $10/hour, no one is going to want to go to your school, and just as important, UCI wont have a solid base to get money from in the future. UCI HAS to get their alums employed in good jobs, and will do everything they can to do so. Again, if Dean C is calling in favors from judges to get his students summers, imagine what theyre going to do when the first few classes graduate.

A main selling point at UCI. Law school is to get a job. If they can get me a good job out of it, and allow me to attend on the cheap, I'd seriously consider it. I know far too many T20 grads that are unemployed.

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AreJay711
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:48 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
ViP wrote:
And someone did in fact say that people won't take UCI seriously until the students "get real jobs." I simply responded to that statement.


Fair enough. My bad ViP, I understand the need to correct misinformation. Good luck to you UCI folk!


No one said that. I said that pure manipulation of the employed at graduation numbers by hiring people for RA positions (like some schools are infamous for) will not help UCI because it will hurt their reputation. If they put their graduates in "real" jobs (Firms, clerkships, or high profile PI and gov jobs) though effort by Dean C and the career center, which they appear to be doing, it will HELP their reputation. I wasn't knocking UCI but was saying that real employment is very important for them moving forward and in their goal to be a top 20 law school. ViP just has some kind of inferiority complex is s/he thinks that I was attacking UCI by saying how they place graduates will be very important for how people perceive UCI.

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Seally
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby Seally » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:57 pm

nealric wrote:
First class: 3.43-3.76; 164-168
Second class: 3.38-3.79; 163-169


#1: Looks like they are working those numbers by using more splitters. That would explain the wider 25/75 splits in the second class.

#2: Let's see what happens when people are asked to pony up 50k a year to attend. I can't imagine anybody in their right mind would pick Irvine over USC or UCLA without a cash incentive.



True, as long as Tuition cost is reasonable, UCI deserve's a minimum of exposure, i just hope they keep working hard for it's grads placement like they did with their inaugural class, not just for the time they get enough attention and then turn it into a sad 50-60k/year TTT Law School when another Law School shows up in Cali.

Yet, if you have the stats to attend USC, UCLA, even Davis or Hastings, go for them if you can get a decent deal with schollies.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby TT09 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:11 pm

ViP wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:ViP your trolling is a bit much. You a UCI adcomm member or something? No one said your school isn't being taken seriously or whatever. Its just still an unaccredited school with no track reccord, and for a lot of people, there are better options out there.


I'm a student, and considering the fact that UCI is new, there's a lot of misinformation and lack of knowledge about the school (particularly on TLS). The allegation of "trolling" is funny, considering I'm literally one of perhaps two or three UCI students that ever contribute to this blog. If I didn't take it upon myself to clarify UCI-related issues ("troll," if you like), it's likely that misinformation about UCI would go unnoticed and unamended. Rather than most TLSers, I choose to post on topics that I actually know something about. I could tell other members to "retake" or "ED to UVA yesterday" or "choose UCLA instead of LoyolaLA $$$," but I'm in no position to do that. I'll stick to responding to UCI-related topics.

And someone did in fact say that people won't take UCI seriously until the students "get real jobs." I simply responded to that statement.


You go, ViP! 8)

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vamedic03
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:45 pm

2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


This is impossible. If schools could control job placement, there wouldn't be unemployed T-14 grads.

Look, people are coming out of OGI empty handed throughout the T-14. Don't expect an unranked, unaccredited school to do better than well established, highly ranked schools with real alumni networks just because they really, really want to have good rankings.

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vamedic03
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:49 pm

ViP wrote:
im_blue wrote:
ViP wrote:Peer assessment scores are 25% of the US News rankings, and they have nothing to do with employment. Peer assessment means assessment by law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments, and most recently tenured faculty members.

Every student in the inaugural class had a "real" job for 1L summer last year, and here's an excerpt from an article today discussing the jobs the current 2Ls are looking forward to next summer:

"Employers who made offers to UC Irvine students through the on-campus interview process include Jones Day; O'Melveny & [deleted]; Morrison & Forrester; Sheppard Mullin Richter & Hampton; Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher; and Crowell & Moring, among other national and regional firms, and public interest organizations including the ACLU of Southern California and the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law."

People are taking UCI very seriously.

Not saying UCI is guilty of this, but it's entirely possible that the 6 firms mentioned all gave offers to the same 2-3 students, with a steep dropoff in firm prestige after the very top few students. High schools often use this tactic: "Our students were accepted to 6 different Ivy League schools" when they're only talking about the valedictorian. Why not just list all employers instead of mentioning which ones gave offers?


Very true. But it's too earlier in the year to release a full list of employers since not all the students have heard back from employers yet. The 1Ls received a full list of the jobs/employers from the inaugural class' 1L summer, though, and I can assure you they were all real jobs, haha. My point is just that people are aware of UCI and taking it quite seriously.


This isn't going to change hiring trends. These firms aren't going to stop hiring from the T-14 just because a new school came into town.

Branding is important in the law. It takes decades to build a lawschool brand.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby trudat15 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:12 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


This is impossible. If schools could control job placement, there wouldn't be unemployed T-14 grads.

Look, people are coming out of OGI empty handed throughout the T-14. Don't expect an unranked, unaccredited school to do better than well established, highly ranked schools with real alumni networks just because they really, really want to have good rankings.


I think you severely overestimate what t14 OCS are doing for their grads vs. what they are doing at UCI currently. Not many DEANS of the law schools are calling judges on behalf of his/her students. Just because they are new and not yet accredited, does not mean their dean isn't a rockstar with very good connections across the legal landscape. Add smaller class sizes and potentially different areas of interest (lot of UCI students may want to get into PI instead of biglaw, etc), and I think it would a bit premature to say it's "impossible".

Will they keep it up? Who knows. Will they do whatever is in their power to get their grads in good jobs for at least the first few classes. Yes. For more than just rankings, they need alums in great jobs.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby 20160810 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:13 am

ViP wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
If someone like Dean C is making calls for you to get you summer jobs, then imagine what they'll do to make sure you have a good job at grad. It'll be their first few classes, so they need to place alums in great jobs. Their small class sizes help them really focus on jobs for everyone.

Seems like they are much more engaged than other schools' Career centers.

As far as US News is concerned, all they have to do is hire the unemployed grads as RAs to achieve 100% employment at graduation.


But you are overlooking their need to get good peer assessment scores which are the main component to rankings. Getting graduates employed in real jobs is very important for people to take the school seriously.


Peer assessment scores are 25% of the US News rankings, and they have nothing to do with employment. Peer assessment means assessment by law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments, and most recently tenured faculty members.

Every student in the inaugural class had a "real" job for 1L summer last year, and here's an excerpt from an article today discussing the jobs the current 2Ls are looking forward to next summer:

"Employers who made offers to UC Irvine students through the on-campus interview process include Jones Day; O'Melveny & [deleted]; Morrison & Forrester; Sheppard Mullin Richter & Hampton; Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher; and Crowell & Moring, among other national and regional firms, and public interest organizations including the ACLU of Southern California and the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law."

People are taking UCI very seriously.

Any law school can send its top-5 students to big firms. I'll be convinced when I see real percentages, because I'd be pretty surprised if anyone outside the top 10 or 15% got offers from these firms.

I'm not drinking the UCI kool aid at all. Right now they got a lot of kids with UCLA numbers because those kids thought "$200,000 for a JD from UCLA, or roll the dice on this new school?" and decided to roll the dice. But guess what's going to happen when UCI stops bribing kids with high numbers? I'll give you a hint: Loyola.

There is just no way that when the price tag is equal all of those same kids won't choose UCLA or USC. Same market, tons better name recognition, better alumni base... No brainer.

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2014
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby 2014 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:57 am

vamedic03 wrote:
2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


This is impossible. If schools could control job placement, there wouldn't be unemployed T-14 grads.

Look, people are coming out of OGI empty handed throughout the T-14. Don't expect an unranked, unaccredited school to do better than well established, highly ranked schools with real alumni networks just because they really, really want to have good rankings.

T14 schools get 10x the applications a year that they need to fill a class and enough of their students get jobs fending for themselves to build up a strong alumni base. Why would a dean of say Michigan bother trying to find individual students jobs? It's not like they need to in order to sustain the law school. USNWR is a self fulfilling prophecy that the T14 can continue to reap the benefits from.

UCI on the other hand does not have a guaranteed flow of applicants, they do not have an alumni base, and they have no name recognition. That means that unless Career Services and the administrators are busting their ass, NONE of the students will be getting jobs and the experiment will be dead in a matter of years.


Obviously we have to wait and see, and there is good reason to be skeptical, but that is my opinion on it. I would go to UCI over Davis or Hastings atm (in part because I assume it would end up being cheaper as well)

Of course it won't compete with UCLA or USC for a long while though.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:36 am

2014 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


This is impossible. If schools could control job placement, there wouldn't be unemployed T-14 grads.

Look, people are coming out of OGI empty handed throughout the T-14. Don't expect an unranked, unaccredited school to do better than well established, highly ranked schools with real alumni networks just because they really, really want to have good rankings.

T14 schools get 10x the applications a year that they need to fill a class and enough of their students get jobs fending for themselves to build up a strong alumni base. Why would a dean of say Michigan bother trying to find individual students jobs? It's not like they need to in order to sustain the law school. USNWR is a self fulfilling prophecy that the T14 can continue to reap the benefits from.

UCI on the other hand does not have a guaranteed flow of applicants, they do not have an alumni base, and they have no name recognition. That means that unless Career Services and the administrators are busting their ass, NONE of the students will be getting jobs and the experiment will be dead in a matter of years.


Obviously we have to wait and see, and there is good reason to be skeptical, but that is my opinion on it. I would go to UCI over Davis or Hastings atm (in part because I assume it would end up being cheaper as well)

Of course it won't compete with UCLA or USC for a long while though.


WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby fragged » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:54 am

WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?


I don't think T-14 schools see UCI as a threat, but the UC Regents saw an opportunity with Chemerinsky and jumped on it. I agree that UCI will not see the T-14, but honestly I think they would be happy outranking their brethren (Davis & Hastings).

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vamedic03
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:18 am

fragged wrote:
WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?


I don't think T-14 schools see UCI as a threat, but the UC Regents saw an opportunity with Chemerinsky and jumped on it. I agree that UCI will not see the T-14, but honestly I think they would be happy outranking their brethren (Davis & Hastings).


Utterly BS... The UC Regents saw an opportunity to make MONEY and jumped on it. The last thing that California, or the US needed, was another law school.

Explain why there was a need for another law school in California or in the US.

trudat15
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby trudat15 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:36 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
2014 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
2014 wrote:I imagine their job placement for the first few years will be remarkable in an effort to game the initial rankings. I would think a new school who has an expressed goal of being top 20 really can't afford to have hiring be a bloodbath.


This is impossible. If schools could control job placement, there wouldn't be unemployed T-14 grads.

Look, people are coming out of OGI empty handed throughout the T-14. Don't expect an unranked, unaccredited school to do better than well established, highly ranked schools with real alumni networks just because they really, really want to have good rankings.

T14 schools get 10x the applications a year that they need to fill a class and enough of their students get jobs fending for themselves to build up a strong alumni base. Why would a dean of say Michigan bother trying to find individual students jobs? It's not like they need to in order to sustain the law school. USNWR is a self fulfilling prophecy that the T14 can continue to reap the benefits from.

UCI on the other hand does not have a guaranteed flow of applicants, they do not have an alumni base, and they have no name recognition. That means that unless Career Services and the administrators are busting their ass, NONE of the students will be getting jobs and the experiment will be dead in a matter of years.


Obviously we have to wait and see, and there is good reason to be skeptical, but that is my opinion on it. I would go to UCI over Davis or Hastings atm (in part because I assume it would end up being cheaper as well)

Of course it won't compete with UCLA or USC for a long while though.


WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?


Caring and action are two entirely different things. Read the Legal Employment forum and within a few minutes you'll see what the unemployed are talking about. And by the way, no t14 has their Deans calling judges for favors, at least nothing I've read about (enlighten me if you've heard differently).

Regardless of what the t14 administration is doing to get their kids employed, UCI is going above and beyond as of now.
Look, I dont know where it will be ranked, but it's not "impossible" for UCI to place 80 kids into a decent jobs. Everyone 1L had a summer job last year, and it's not due to the school name (obviously). It's because they're working their ass off.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby nealric » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:36 pm

Everyone 1L had a summer job last year, and it's not due to the school name (obviously).


Getting a 1L job ain't no thang. I want to know if they will have jobs at graduating. Also, the first entering class is small enough and the administration has enough capital to call in favors and get these people in the door. I'm not convinced that people applying now are going to have the same resources put behind them.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:39 pm

^ what happens when the money well dries up and class size increases? The dean can't keep calling in favors and once he stops, employment opportunities won't be nearly as good. Their medians are going to drop, and peer assessment scores are going to go down. I'm not saying UCI was a bad choice for the first few classes, but I sure as hell wouldn't pay sticker for an experiment over established schools. I think in the near future, UCI is not going to look nearly as good as it does now. What their doing just isn't sustainable imho.

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:33 pm

trudat15 wrote:
Caring and action are two entirely different things. Read the Legal Employment forum and within a few minutes you'll see what the unemployed are talking about. And by the way, no t14 has their Deans calling judges for favors, at least nothing I've read about (enlighten me if you've heard differently).

Regardless of what the t14 administration is doing to get their kids employed, UCI is going above and beyond as of now.
Look, I dont know where it will be ranked, but it's not "impossible" for UCI to place 80 kids into a decent jobs. Everyone 1L had a summer job last year, and it's not due to the school name (obviously). It's because they're working their ass off.


Unlike you, I'm not a 0L. I'm a 2L at a T-14. I'm well aware of what the employment situation is like and I'm in a much better position that you to know how T-14's help their students.

FWIW, when it comes clerkship time, plenty of professors make calls for students. And, its clerkship time that it matters, not externship time.

trudat15
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby trudat15 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:36 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
Caring and action are two entirely different things. Read the Legal Employment forum and within a few minutes you'll see what the unemployed are talking about. And by the way, no t14 has their Deans calling judges for favors, at least nothing I've read about (enlighten me if you've heard differently).

Regardless of what the t14 administration is doing to get their kids employed, UCI is going above and beyond as of now.
Look, I dont know where it will be ranked, but it's not "impossible" for UCI to place 80 kids into a decent jobs. Everyone 1L had a summer job last year, and it's not due to the school name (obviously). It's because they're working their ass off.


Unlike you, I'm not a 0L. I'm a 2L at a T-14. I'm well aware of what the employment situation is like and I'm in a much better position that you to know how T-14's help their students.

FWIW, when it comes clerkship time, plenty of professors make calls for students. And, its clerkship time that it matters, not externship time.


I'm sure you are more qualified to speak about ocs, but all I can go off of is what I read. I dont need to be a 2L to read a bunch of people bitching about their respective OCS at t14 schools.

My comments are geared towards NOW, not what will happen years from now. Who knows. I dont know where UCI will be ranked, or if they'll be able to help their students in the future, but they sure as hell are doing whatever they can do right now, and I assume, when the first few classes graduate. All I was responding to was your comment that it's impossible for them to get their grads employed. To say it's impossible, given what they've shown a commitment to do, when all signs point to them HAVING to get their grads employed (to have any cred), was unfair, imo.

Yes, professors are calling in for clerkships in t14s. Makes sense. My point is that if the someone like DEan C is calling judges personally to get externships, what will he and the rest of the staff do when it comes to clerkships/employment. Could be wrong, but wont know until their class is graduating anyways.

irishman86
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby irishman86 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:24 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
fragged wrote:
WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?


I don't think T-14 schools see UCI as a threat, but the UC Regents saw an opportunity with Chemerinsky and jumped on it. I agree that UCI will not see the T-14, but honestly I think they would be happy outranking their brethren (Davis & Hastings).


Utterly BS... The UC Regents saw an opportunity to make MONEY and jumped on it. The last thing that California, or the US needed, was another law school.

Explain why there was a need for another law school in California or in the US.


TMFCR

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Re: UC Irvine

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:42 pm

irishman86 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
fragged wrote:
WOW. Do you really think that the T-14 administrators don't care about people getting jobs? Do you really think that T-14 administrators don't use every resource they have to get students jobs?

Look, I'm sure UCI will be a relatively good school. However, they are not, and will not be, a Top 14 school. And, exactly which T-20, or for that matter, T-50 do you think they will knock out of the ratings?


I don't think T-14 schools see UCI as a threat, but the UC Regents saw an opportunity with Chemerinsky and jumped on it. I agree that UCI will not see the T-14, but honestly I think they would be happy outranking their brethren (Davis & Hastings).


Utterly BS... The UC Regents saw an opportunity to make MONEY and jumped on it. The last thing that California, or the US needed, was another law school.

Explain why there was a need for another law school in California or in the US.


TMFCR


+1 based on what I think that stands for.

greg737
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Re: UC Irvine

Postby greg737 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:53 am

For any current students at UCI, is anyone attempting a dual degree? I went to admit day and, I believe, they said something about a possible MBA/JD degree (possibly just wanting to start providing that as an option), but I don't believe anyone was going for that yet.




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