GMU vs. American C/O 2014

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Blindmelon
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:48 am

jarofsoup wrote:On prestige. If you search big law web sites and look at associates and partners there are tons more American grads that GMU in DC.

Edit:
But there may be much more American U grads that GMU every year... I dont know if this really means anything.


Biglaw sites? Unless you search every DC firm, this is irrelevant. Some firms prefer one school over another and vice-versa. E.g. look at firms in Boston and you'll see that BU pwns BC at Goodwin, but BC generally wins on the Ropes front. Its pretty irrelevant.

jarofsoup
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:45 am

Blindmelon wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:On prestige. If you search big law web sites and look at associates and partners there are tons more American grads that GMU in DC.

Edit:
But there may be much more American U grads that GMU every year... I dont know if this really means anything.


Biglaw sites? Unless you search every DC firm, this is irrelevant. Some firms prefer one school over another and vice-versa. E.g. look at firms in Boston and you'll see that BU pwns BC at Goodwin, but BC generally wins on the Ropes front. Its pretty irrelevant.



Here yah go. I dont know come up with your own conclusions
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3|ink
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby 3|ink » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:05 pm

jarofsoup wrote:
Here yah go. I dont know come up with your own conclusions
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Why do people always show this when they're trying to show that American is better?

1.) Someone attending GMU is more likely than someone at American to practice in VA, right? If they practice in southern or western VA, the cost of living is quite lower than Maryland and DC. Therefore, their salary would reflect this.
2.) There's a significant difference in the rate of unemployment. Assuming the provided numbers are accurate representations, 1.784 of every 223 GMU graduates are unemployed while 21.195 of every 471 American graduates are unemployed.
3.) GMU has a slightly higher rate of clerkship positions. Some of these clerkships are highly competitive even though they pay less. They drag the median income down.
4.) American students are less likely to seek lower paying jobs because they're in debt up to their eye balls while a GMU graduate is in a better position to accept a lower salary.

None of these are conclusions. They are just reasons to look beyond median income. It's also a shame that LST doesn't account for debt. It'd be nice to know the % of students in X amount of debt.

ran12
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby ran12 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:35 pm

Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.

Aqualibrium
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:14 pm

The best way to gauge which school is better is to look at how much 3 years there will cost you. Despite the hair splitting that you guys are trying to do, GMU and American are generally more or less the same thing. Regional schools in a ridiculously tough market. GMU has the advantage in my book because you can actually enjoy the lifestyle that come with living in the DC metro area.

The difference in job prospects, if any, won't be significant enough to pay more at one or the other if you get into both.

jarofsoup
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:33 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:The best way to gauge which school is better is to look at how much 3 years there will cost you. Despite the hair splitting that you guys are trying to do, GMU and American are generally more or less the same thing. Regional schools in a ridiculously tough market. GMU has the advantage in my book because you can actually enjoy the lifestyle that come with living in the DC metro area.

The difference in job prospects, if any, won't be significant enough to pay more at one or the other if you get into both.



I did not mean to say that American is better. Just that they are both good options.

How do these school compare to Washinton and Lee beside W and L being in the boonies.

Aqualibrium
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:41 pm

jarofsoup wrote:

I did not mean to say that American is better. Just that they are both good options.

How do these school compare to Washinton and Lee beside W and L being in the boonies.



The best way to gauge which school is better is to look at how much 3 years there will cost you.


W&L is smaller if that's your thing, but evidence I've heard from people there is that they aren't doing so hot ITE. Fact of the matter is, your only realistic shot at a market paying job at GMU, American, or W&L is to be in the top 25%. People will continually split hairs about "prestige," but facts are facts(btw W&L is probably the better regarded of the 3, but again, it really doesn't matter that much). That's the way it is.

Go to the one that is cheapest, in the place you like the most.

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androstan
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby androstan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:23 pm

ran12 wrote:Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.


If you don't like LST, USNWR has 71% of AU's private practice grads reporting and GMU has 57%. AU's median private sector income is 160 and GMU is 145.

And yes the data is old but it is the most recent we have. I don't see why AU would fall disproportionately to GMU. If anything, AU has a longer-running reputation in the past and thus a little more "prestige" amongst employers.

HeavenWood
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:28 pm

androstan wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.


If you don't like LST, USNWR has 71% of AU's private practice grads reporting and GMU has 57%. AU's median private sector income is 160 and GMU is 145.

And yes the data is old but it is the most recent we have. I don't see why AU would fall disproportionately to GMU. If anything, AU has a longer-running reputation in the past and thus a little more "prestige" amongst employers.


But is it worth double the cost?

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androstan
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby androstan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:29 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
androstan wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.


If you don't like LST, USNWR has 71% of AU's private practice grads reporting and GMU has 57%. AU's median private sector income is 160 and GMU is 145.

And yes the data is old but it is the most recent we have. I don't see why AU would fall disproportionately to GMU. If anything, AU has a longer-running reputation in the past and thus a little more "prestige" amongst employers.


But is it worth double the cost?


No. But is it worth 1.1x the cost?

HeavenWood
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:32 pm

androstan wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
androstan wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.


If you don't like LST, USNWR has 71% of AU's private practice grads reporting and GMU has 57%. AU's median private sector income is 160 and GMU is 145.

And yes the data is old but it is the most recent we have. I don't see why AU would fall disproportionately to GMU. If anything, AU has a longer-running reputation in the past and thus a little more "prestige" amongst employers.


But is it worth double the cost?


No. But is it worth 1.1x the cost?


Perhaps, but keep in mind that neither school will offer you a dazzling merit aid package. I was rejected from George Mason just for that reason. In the words of the dean, my numbers were high enough that she knew I was going to receive a better offer elsewhere.

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androstan
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby androstan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:39 pm

ran12 wrote:Perhaps, but keep in mind that neither school will offer you a dazzling merit aid package. I was rejected from George Mason just for that reason. In the words of the dean, my numbers were high enough that she knew I was going to receive a better offer elsewhere.


They might be a little more competitive if law school profs/deans didn't make 300k+/year.

HeavenWood
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:44 pm

androstan wrote:
ran12 wrote:Perhaps, but keep in mind that neither school will offer you a dazzling merit aid package. I was rejected from George Mason just for that reason. In the words of the dean, my numbers were high enough that she knew I was going to receive a better offer elsewhere.


They might be a little more competitive if law school profs/deans didn't make 300k+/year.


GMU is a good, up-and-coming school, but they simply lack the resources to attract top applicants. The university has a chicken feed endowment of only $41 million. I think they're doing quite well given their budgetary limitations.

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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby 3|ink » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:22 pm

androstan wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea all these transparency and data sites are more or less useless. They're incomplete and there's no way to make sure people who provide numbers are actually giving real numbers. Plus they're not that recent and in the past couple of years things have changed a lot in DC. Anyway, the best way to gauge which school is better is to speak with lawyers and government people in DC. Their opinions are the only ones that really count because they're in the position to be hiring and recommending GM or AU grads.


If you don't like LST, USNWR has 71% of AU's private practice grads reporting and GMU has 57%. AU's median private sector income is 160 and GMU is 145.

And yes the data is old but it is the most recent we have. I don't see why AU would fall disproportionately to GMU. If anything, AU has a longer-running reputation in the past and thus a little more "prestige" amongst employers.


What does USNWR have for rate of unemployment? Do they also report an advantage for GMU grads? I'd check, but I don't even know where to look.

jarofsoup
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:22 pm

Even though I have argued for American. I am applying to GMU today. They both seem like good options plus its a free app.

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gdane
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby gdane » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:27 pm

After all my research Ive come to conclude that, in spite of what USNWR says (no surprise there), AU WCL is a better choice than GMU ONLY IF the cost is comparable. This mainly applies to out of state people since its something like 32k for GMU.

Like others have noted, both schools face stiff competition from the big boys (GULC, GW, HYS, etc) and neither really offers a huge leg up over the other. However, AU has a MUCH larger alumni base that seems to help out WCL grads. Cant say the same about GMU considering its only had a law school for less than 40 years.

I'm in at both, but if I dont get into my remaining schools (GWU and Fordham) I'll be going to AU. In my opinion, their professors are better, their facilities are better and yes it costs a lot, but thats life. One cant be terrified of taking risks, especially at a young age.
Last edited by gdane on Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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3|ink
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby 3|ink » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:31 pm

gdane5 wrote:I'm in at both, but if I dont get into my remaining schools (GWU and Fordham) I'll be going to AU. There professors are better, their facilities are better and yes it costs a lot, but thats life. One cant be terrified of taking risks, especially at a young age.


How did you determine the underlined? Is there a website or group that rates the staff?

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gdane
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby gdane » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:36 pm

3|ink wrote:
gdane5 wrote:I'm in at both, but if I dont get into my remaining schools (GWU and Fordham) I'll be going to AU. Their professors are better, their facilities are better and yes it costs a lot, but thats life. One cant be terrified of taking risks, especially at a young age.


How did you determine the underlined? Is there a website or group that rates the staff?

The statement in question may be more personal opinion than fact.

However, Ive compared and contrasted the two schools' respective faculty and AU has more "respected" professors than GMU. Some of AU's profs have been involved in high profile cases, most of them are ivy league guys and they've had a shitload of stuff published.

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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:39 pm

gdane5 wrote:
3|ink wrote:
gdane5 wrote:I'm in at both, but if I dont get into my remaining schools (GWU and Fordham) I'll be going to AU. Their professors are better, their facilities are better and yes it costs a lot, but thats life. One cant be terrified of taking risks, especially at a young age.


How did you determine the underlined? Is there a website or group that rates the staff?

The statement in question may be more personal opinion than fact.

However, Ive compared and contrasted the two schools' respective faculty and AU has more "respected" professors than GMU. Some of AU's profs have been involved in high profile cases, most of them are ivy league guys and they've had a shitload of stuff published.


Go to American because you like the school and it's your best possible option.

Don't go thinking you'll be able to play the prestige card.

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gdane
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby gdane » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:41 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Go to American because you like the school and it's your best possible option.

Don't go thinking you'll be able to play the prestige card.

It has nothing to do with playing a prestige card. Geez, in a city with GULC and GW, I dont think theres a lot of room to play an AU prestige card.

The professors have a lot to do with making AU a good option.

HeavenWood
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:45 pm

gdane5 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Go to American because you like the school and it's your best possible option.

Don't go thinking you'll be able to play the prestige card.

It has nothing to do with playing a prestige card. Geez, in a city with GULC and GW, I dont think theres a lot of room to play an AU prestige card.

The professors have a lot to do with making AU a good option.


I was just making sure you were aware of that.

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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby 3|ink » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:48 pm

I'll say this. The general counsel for my Trust used to teach ethics at American, and he has very impressive credentials. He said he loved the facilities but hated the rest of the faculty. His advice to me was to follow the money UNLESS I can get into a school within the top 20. I also used to work with an attorney who attended American (old job). He said he liked the faculty but hated the facilities.

Since I'm a Virginia resident, it makes sense to go to GMU part time (18k) over American (29k?). I've never known anyone who attended GMU so I don't have any dirt on them.

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gdane
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Re: GMU vs. American C/O 2014

Postby gdane » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:50 pm

3|ink wrote:I'll say this. The general counsel for my Trust used to teach ethics at American, and he has very impressive credentials. He said he loved the facilities but hated the rest of the faculty. His advice to me was to follow the money UNLESS I can get into a school within the top 20. I also used to work with an attorney who attended American (old job). He said he liked the faculty but hated the facilities.

Since I'm a Virginia resident, it makes sense to go to GMU part time (18k) over American (29k?). (41k)I've never known anyone who attended GMU so I don't have any dirt on them.


Definitely follow the money. For you, GMU is the best choice. No doubt about that.




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